RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (Full Version)

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Nedrear -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/30/2011 2:29:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cauldyth

That seems like an odd implementation of war. What it would mean is that the victor in the war has won the right to buy the conquered territory off of the loser. That doesn't reflect any real world war that has ever happened.



The French-Britain war for Nothern North America...
The German-France wars for Lothering...
The annexion of Boehmia through Prussia with austria...

No you are right annexion NEVER happened... [8|]



Cauldyth -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/30/2011 2:49:58 AM)

You misunderstood my post, which was in response to HectorOfTroy, not to you. My point is the same as yours - in war, the victor generally takes whatever they want. The loser doesn't continue fighting on until adequately compensated for the territory they've lost.



Nedrear -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/30/2011 3:03:35 AM)

It was little puzling since you missed to quote him while posting after me...

But nice to see someone into real politics. Now only the game alignment system would need an overhaul and this would be a really funny way.



HectorOfTroy -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/30/2011 4:35:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cauldyth

You misunderstood my post, which was in response to HectorOfTroy, not to you. My point is the same as yours - in war, the victor generally takes whatever they want. The loser doesn't continue fighting on until adequately compensated for the territory they've lost.



Yes victor takes what they want, that's correct. But I want us to avoid a system where we can declare war, colonise a planet and then quickly sue for peace and keep the planet. What's the point of territories if we can do that.

That's why I was saying, if you declare war and take a planet, the race from which you took it will not accept the peace unless you return the planet or swap it for another or pay large amount for it.

If there is no penalty for declaring war and taking planets then we don't need territory system. The rep hit that you get from declaring wars can be fixed with gifts and fighting pirates.

So if you are a powerful empire then just declare war and take the planets. But you can't get a 'chep' peace later on beacuse the race you took the planet from will hate you and will want the planet back (or soemthing else in return).



WiZz -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/30/2011 6:59:05 AM)

Maybe, diplomacy needs to implement some new kind of treaties. I mean a right to colonize a needles planet for money. There were such examples in Earth history.



Cauldyth -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/30/2011 12:18:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HectorOfTroy

Yes victor takes what they want, that's correct. But I want us to avoid a system where we can declare war, colonise a planet and then quickly sue for peace and keep the planet. What's the point of territories if we can do that.

That's why I was saying, if you declare war and take a planet, the race from which you took it will not accept the peace unless you return the planet or swap it for another or pay large amount for it.


Yeah, that seems reasonable, but I think you'll find that it probably works that way already, though I haven't explicitly tried that sequence of events with an empire that is significantly smaller than me. My guess is that the sequence of events would be the following:

1) Declare war
2) Colonize the planet
3) Sue for peace, but get rejected
4) Hammer his fleets and worlds with your military for several months
5) Sue for peace, and get accepted

From my limited experience, if I declare war on a weaker opponent and then try to sue for peace even without having done much against them, they still refuse unless I offer something extra. But that's from just the limited playing I've done so far.



WiZz -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/30/2011 2:09:54 PM)

Sorry, but I can't still imagine how my people agree to colonize under treat of enemy fire or conquer.



Nedrear -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/30/2011 2:49:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WiZz

Sorry, but I can't still imagine how my people agree to colonize under treat of enemy fire or conquer.



Stalin can tell you!

"Either you go out there, shot your way through the enemies and TAKE THAT PLANET or I will give you a bullet RIGHT NOW!"



WiZz -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/30/2011 3:41:09 PM)

And what about republic or democracy empire?



Nedrear -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/30/2011 4:18:10 PM)

Would a roleplaying democracy attack them to steal their territory?



Locarnus -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/30/2011 4:30:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nedrear

Would a roleplaying democracy attack them to steal their territory?


Sure they would. The expansion of the Greek, Roman, French and US republics/empires were not hindered by their political systems.



Nedrear -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/30/2011 4:40:23 PM)

As you said they were representative republics were the voting people - war weariness - couldn't know everything and need to vote for a replacement voter who MAYBE does what they want. We are spacefaring people in a democracy with a direct vote for the leader by every person. If people really want a territory war in a democracy but don't want to "take a colony ship in contested territory" then they will simply takeover an established world...



ASHBERY76 -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/30/2011 5:36:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HectorOfTroy

Well then all we have to do is:
- declare war;
- colonise as many of the enemy's planets we wannt;
- sue for peace and voila we have multiple new planets (plus if we are powerful we can make the weak empire also pay us tribute to obtain that peace);
- improve our rep by killing pirates and sending small gifts to others;

I personally would not like the game to turn out this way;


I agree I dislike this change.Seeding en enemy territory with mutiple colony ships in a short war seems exploitable and not realistic.The A.I empires territory will be broken with little effort.The present system set clear war goals for the player and the A.I.

I see big issues with this.







ehsumrell1 -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/30/2011 6:36:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: elliotg

Hi all

Appreciate the feedback on this feature. The current implementation operates as designed: you cannot colonize in another empire's territory, even when at war.

However we plan to alter this in the next update to allow colonization in another empire's territory, but only when at war with them.

Thanks
Elliot



Okay fellow DW community members, I've read enough! Here is my 10 bars of Gold-Pressed Latinum worth! [:D]

As a player/tester/modder for both the DW-ROTS and Legends, I think Elliot and Erik have devised the
best of all possible scenarios with the border systems as recently stated by Elliot. Why you may ask?

1. Every scenario one can muster up, either political (in reality, Gaza Strip for one, Cuban missile crisis for another), galactic(in fiction, Star Trek Regional boundaries - i.e Neutral Zone, Star Wars boundaries - i.e. Coruscant sector, Babylon-5 boundaries - i.e. Vorlon space, Shadow territory) we
could go on, has a way to identify territory.
2. If you and your adjoining neighbors house had a visible fence between you, and your neighbor kept
dumping his leaves on YOUR side of the fence and leaving them there, how would YOU feel about it?
3. How do you feel when (as I've seen a few times reported in this forum) you start a new game and
there is another race's homeworld in your sector, or even the same system?

I personally like the feel of the game with borders/territories designated. I also think that the
dynamics of how Elliot has decided it should work is spot on as well. Especially when I feel that
he has taken a "the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few" approach (from the majority
opinions of the Master Wishlist I'm presuming at that). What I hope I don't see though, is that too
many opinions start to degrade the attitude and approach that Elliot has applied toward this game.
I'm sure as a human (although at times I think he's a Jedi), he has an ego, and I'm very, VERY
surprised that he has kept it in check after some of the posts I've read in these forums. I know
I couldn't have the resolve that he has had..... Okay, my ranting is over. Flame me if you must, but
this is just my open opinion.

In closing, I just want to say to the community, I'm grateful that Matrix has provided me with an opportunity to play the greatest space 4X game ever IMHO. Computer space games have come a LONG way!
My first space game was StarFlight that I played in 1986 on a Tandy computer. I also have played the
rest, Stars, SE3,4,& 5, MOO & MOO2 (I won't even mention that I bought MOO3, and if you tell anyone
I know I'll hunt you down), Starfleet Command series, IG, GalCiv, SR2, I could go on. This is my
genre, with Flight sims such as FreeLancer and the Evochron series a close second.

ENJOY WHAT WE HAVE, ASK FOR WHAT YOU FEEL WILL HELP THE GAME, BUT PLEASE, BE CIVIL IN BOTH OUR
REQUESTS, AND RESPECTFUL IN OUR RESPONSES. AND MOST OF ALL....SPREAD THE WORD ABOUT THIS GAME!
Thanks for your time away from the game to read my opinions!
[:)]
[sm=00000924.gif]



WiZz -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/30/2011 7:05:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ehsumrell1
1. Every scenario one can muster up, either political (in reality, Gaza Strip for one, Cuban missile crisis for another), galactic(in fiction, Star Trek Regional boundaries - i.e Neutral Zone, Star Wars boundaries - i.e. Coruscant sector, Babylon-5 boundaries - i.e. Vorlon space, Shadow territory) we
could go on, has a way to identify territory.
2. If you and your adjoining neighbors house had a visible fence between you, and your neighbor kept
dumping his leaves on YOUR side of the fence and leaving them there, how would YOU feel about it?
3. How do you feel when (as I've seen a few times reported in this forum) you start a new game and
there is another race's homeworld in your sector, or even the same system?


1. Agree
2. This situation is not very rare in real life, especially in politics, it's very often. Do you think that in Galaxy something would be different?
3. I'd like it. Such situation is real challenge for me and tests all my DW gaming skills.
Besides I think that it is possible scenario in real galaxy, when star system may have 2 or more pleasant for life planets with 2 different races.



HectorOfTroy -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (11/30/2011 11:53:24 PM)

Ehsumrell, so what do you think about whole 'declaring war then colonising' issue?



feelotraveller -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (12/1/2011 1:21:38 AM)

I not sure what Ed thinks but I'm against the declaring war and then colonising mechanic, and hope that Elliot and Erik change their minds and leave it the way it is currently.

In MY space universe to grab one of those nice worlds within the sphere of influence of another colonised system you must first remove the administrative centre of the other empire by conquering or exterminating them. They can't project their influence and you can then colonise.

Dare I suggest though, that perhaps everyone can be satisfied by having this as a checkbox toggle? "Allow colonisation of hostile territory when at war."



Nedrear -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (12/1/2011 1:37:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: feelotraveller

Dare I suggest though, that perhaps everyone can be satisfied by having this as a checkbox toggle? "Allow colonisation of hostile territory when at war."


That's how most changes should be implement imho...



ehsumrell1 -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (12/1/2011 7:25:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HectorOfTroy

Ehsumrell, so what do you think about whole 'declaring war then colonising' issue?


I see Elliot progressing to that to provide a happy medium. My opinion though is that if
you choose to invade a world in another's sphere of influence there should be either war
declared on you, or at the very least, heavy, severe sanctions of some sort. If it is
just an uncolonized planet that you're after, then a large reputation hit should be issued.
If the reduction lowers your rating below a certain amount, then a blockade should be applied
by the offended empire.

I'm beginning to wonder if one of two things could sooth this dilemma though.
1.) Add to diplomacy some form of Non-Aggression Pact which deals with this subject, something
similar to the mining rights that are in the game.
2.) Some form of toggle on/off similar to what feelotraveller just stated.
Those are my opinions! [:)]



HectorOfTroy -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (12/1/2011 9:48:50 AM)

I hope Elliot considers this very carefully. I like it as it is.

If you really want that AI's planet be prepared to really go to war for it and not just declare the war, grab it and then obtain peace beacuse you are probably stronger and richer empire. What's fun in that?






WiZz -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (12/1/2011 10:37:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ehsumrell1
I see Elliot progressing to that to provide a happy medium. My opinion though is that if
you choose to invade a world in another's sphere of influence there should be either war
declared on you, or at the very least, heavy, severe sanctions of some sort. If it is
just an uncolonized planet that you're after, then a large reputation hit should be issued.
If the reduction lowers your rating below a certain amount, then a blockade should be applied
by the offended empire.

I'm beginning to wonder if one of two things could sooth this dilemma though.
1.) Add to diplomacy some form of Non-Aggression Pact which deals with this subject, something
similar to the mining rights that are in the game.
2.) Some form of toggle on/off similar to what feelotraveller just stated.
Those are my opinions! [:)]


ehsumrell1

I wrote:
quote:

As for me I don't understand need of this border system entirely. Let's think, how can enemy empire stop my miners and colonizers if opponent doesn't have any military in a system?
In my opinion, border system must work in that way: AI or I can ALWAYS mine, colonize, build a station at the planet in the opponent spheres of influence but with a large diplomatic/reputation penalty. If I/AI attack enemy/my miner or colonizer in my/his own system I/AI get no penalty to my/his reputation. Only relations with attacked empires break down.


Find the difference in our posts. [:)]

quote:

I not sure what Ed thinks but I'm against the declaring war and then colonising mechanic, and hope that Elliot and Erik change their minds and leave it the way it is currently.

In MY space universe to grab one of those nice worlds within the sphere of influence of another colonised system you must first remove the administrative centre of the other empire by conquering or exterminating them. They can't project their influence and you can then colonise.

Dare I suggest though, that perhaps everyone can be satisfied by having this as a checkbox toggle? "Allow colonisation of hostile territory when at war."


I think, it is wrong point of view. How can the sphere of influence of my enemy prevent my colonization in real? Or do you think, that the sphere of influence build iron walls around all planet in range?



Cauldyth -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (12/1/2011 12:32:25 PM)

Just to clarify my own position (not that anyone really cares) I'm strongly in favour of preventing colonization when not at war. As to the debate about when at war, I'm relatively neutral on that. What I was objecting strongly to was the suggestion to allow colonization when not at war, and just make it a diplomatic offense.



HectorOfTroy -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (12/1/2011 12:42:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WiZz

I think, it is wrong point of view. How can the sphere of influence of my enemy prevent my colonization in real? Or do you think, that the sphere of influence build iron walls around all planet in range?


It is not about what is realistic, it's about what is fun to play.

After all, we are playing a GAME set in space where we wage wars with aliens. We want a fun game, not a relistic one which is not fun to play.



WiZz -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (12/1/2011 1:06:31 PM)

Ok, artificial and strange restrictions in game are very fun for somebody. But not for me...



HectorOfTroy -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (12/1/2011 1:09:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WiZz

Ok, artificial and strange restrictions are very fun... 


Yep they can be fun if they make the game more fun to play and make you strategise more.

Where is fun in declaring the war, taking the planet and then get a peace deal?




WiZz -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (12/1/2011 1:39:59 PM)

Ok, throw away reality. But, in a good game all actions must be logical.

quote:

Where is fun in declaring the war, taking the planet and then get a peace deal?


Do you see logic in this actions? I don't.

quote:

After all, we are playing a GAME set in space where we wage wars with aliens. We want a fun game, not a relistic one which is not fun to play.


[OFFTOPIC]Yes, we talk about a GAME. But when I first looked on Distant worlds I had seen a REALISTIC game.
Firstly, it was REALTIME. Were the most 4x strategies realtime all the time? I can remember no one, except Sins of the solar empire.
Secondary, I found an excellent astrophysical model with different types MOBILE planets.
Thirdly, I found a smart AI and an interesting economical model.
So when you told me that DW isn't realistic game I disagree with you.[/OFFTOPIC]



WiZz -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (12/1/2011 1:41:13 PM)

del



HectorOfTroy -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (12/1/2011 1:45:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WiZz

Ok, throw away reality. But, in a good game all actions must be logical.

quote:

Where is fun in declaring the war, taking the planet and then get a peace deal?


Do you see logic in this actions? I don't.

quote:

After all, we are playing a GAME set in space where we wage wars with aliens. We want a fun game, not a relistic one which is not fun to play.


[OFFTOPIC]Yes, we talk about a GAME. But when I first looked on Distant worlds I had seen a REALISTIC game.
Firstly, it was REALTIME. Were the most 4x strategies realtime all the time? I can remember no one, except Sins of the solar empire.
Secondary, I found an excellent astrophysical model with different types MOBILE planets.
Thirdly, I found a smart AI and an interesting economical model.
So when you told me that DW isn't realistic game I disagree with you.[/OFFTOPIC]



So how would you handle declartion of war and then colonising enemy planets? What would be a negative of doing that?



WiZz -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (12/1/2011 2:14:46 PM)

A negative thing is that my new colonies will be unprotected and weak. Colonizers can be easily intercepted and destroyed without escort. Escort takes my military ships which I could use with benefit in other place.
So, let's see, what will happen, when colonizing in enemy territory leads only to reputation/diplomatic relations hit and it's not necessary to declare war.
I have colonized planet in enemy territory, relations with enemy are breaking down. But I propose monetary gift or technology as compensation. Relations are up. An incident is closed. All sides are satisfied. Is it real and logic scenario, or not?    



Nedrear -> RE: Colonization planets in enemy territory is not working (12/1/2011 3:44:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WiZz

I have colonized planet in enemy territory, relations with enemy are breaking down. But I propose monetary gift or technology as compensation. Relations are up. An incident is closed. All sides are satisfied. Is it real and logic scenario, or not?    



It is a real logic scenario for bigger empires which got less "need" for land and might be needing this advanced technology. Furthermore for many races which rather settle the matter in favor of peace and trade again.

In case of a war like enemy they should retaliate...



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