Sphere of Influence suggestion (Full Version)

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Torgrim -> Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/4/2011 10:15:58 PM)

Been playing legends for some time now and really love it, excellent expansion good work :)
Really like the idea about territory but it has a flaw.

why do the sphere of influence grow so slowly?, you expand your Empire planting colonies and wage war but still most colonies even the ones I have for long time only have a blob territory it doesn't grow that fast.

I would suggest that the sphere of influence grow faster toward your own colonies and slower out in deeps space just to fill in the gaps it looks and feels more like you are building an Empire when you actually can see a coherent border system not just blobs.

Just for the record I know the mechanics for the sphere of influence but as I sead they expand to slowly.

Or have I misted the whole point? If that's the case send me a space worm right at me and slap me [:D]



Malevolence -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/4/2011 10:48:50 PM)

soi needs thermodynamic exchange properties so that colonies close to one another have a cumulative effect. those apart less so. see a big thread on soi a page or two down.



ASHBERY76 -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/4/2011 11:09:26 PM)

New colonies take to long to reach a population size to expand it and they stay small it seems for most of the game.I think SOI should be changed to development level as new colonies tend to expand that quicker.

As it stands SOI in my view does not really do much in the game apart from protecting your homeworld sphere..I am still getting messy borders too.




Torgrim -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/4/2011 11:44:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

New colonies take to long to reach a population size to expand it and they stay small it seems for most of the game.I think SOI should be changed to development level as new colonies tend to expand that quicker.

As it stands SOI in my view does not really do much in the game apart from protecting your homeworld sphere..I am still getting messy borders too.




Yep so what's the point with borders when they are in reality no borders, just blobs?



Canute0 -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/5/2011 12:26:58 AM)

Try to get good friend with that empire, then send a troop carrier to invade the planet who block your influence !! :-)

But beware i think at 1.704 this cause allways War now.



Malevolence -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/5/2011 2:08:15 AM)

As far as I know soi is based on colony development score.



Bingeling -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/5/2011 3:19:21 PM)

Not sure what the development score, is, but I am pretty sure the indicator is the "Value" on the colony selection screen. And this is probably strategic value?

I had a shared system with two powerful colonies, and the one with the higher value had the higher share of the SOI circle. It went a bit back and forth.



ASHBERY76 -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/5/2011 6:23:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

As far as I know soi is based on colony development score.


No.I had an independent Securan colony that only had a 55 development score and had a huge sphere.The colony had a huge population.

I have lots of new colonies with 100 development score that have tiny SOI.



Nedrear -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/5/2011 6:25:38 PM)

It is most likely calculated like the taxes. Devolopement is combined with the population. A really hard blow for the coporate nationalism which development breaks down to 50 + bonus...



Simulation01 -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/6/2011 12:41:04 AM)

SOI expansion rate needs to be fixed/increased and the mining rights treaty needs to be fixed. 


Also, does anyone else get exceptions related to .wav files?  I will click on a button and it will throw an exception about button1.wav.....and others.  It doesn't cause a crash, but the rate of exceptions is incredibly frustrating!  I get them like every few times I click a button...like when I'm viewing leaders and in diplomacy.  When I'm viewing leaders it's something like grid1.wav.  [:@]



ASHBERY76 -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/6/2011 12:53:28 AM)

I just modded the game with a migration 400% buff and ran it for a while.New colonies were getting 700+miliion people and 100 development and the SOI hardly moved.It seem only massive 10000m colonies really effect it.New colonies in a normal game are never going to reach that.I really hope this is fixed.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/6/2011 1:06:43 AM)

We will be taking another look at the sphere of influence, but a few other reported issues are higher priority at the moment. The sphere of influence may get another tweak for the first update, but it will definitely get a more detailed look for the second update.

Regards,

- Erik



Harry2 -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/6/2011 3:05:27 AM)

Sphere of Influence in Legends is not properly implemented IMHP. The influence radius is far too big, especially for new, undeveloped colonies. I just established a new colony in a distant cluster and was surprised to see the coloured sphere encompass almost the entire cluster!

This is ludicrous. A new colony is comcerned only with survival from one day to the next, not what is happening 20 ly away in another star system.

If it's the home empire that's concerned about influence around the new colony, they need to back that up with military power...not some arbitrary lines (spheres) drawn on a map.

So to build mines and set colonies within this SoI, you need to go to war. This all-or-nothing (peace or war) relationship with competeing neibours is not very realistic.

As it is, the SoI feature intrudes in the immersive environment that DW:Legends builds with all its other features, with an artificial, arbitray, illogical set of retsrictions.

The SoI concept is a good one but requires a lot of re-thinking.



Harry2 -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/6/2011 3:15:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

soi needs thermodynamic exchange properties so that colonies close to one another have a cumulative effect. those apart less so. see a big thread on soi a page or two down.



Yes....and fleets should be part of this with their own SoI based on their firepower. So when the 7th Fleet, composed of 15 top end Caps, Cruisers and Carriers plus escorts, pulls into port, the port coloniy gets an appropriate boost to to their SoI



Nedrear -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/6/2011 3:21:14 AM)

Yes I agree the SoI should start around the new system and then should expand in logical steps to neighboring star systems as the colony gets big and rich. First step 100 million, then 500 million etc. I also would like to see an influence by the amount of military BASES inside the sphere itself. But this amount - military base support to expand early as an outpost - should be caped to the third of the potential size of the future colony sphere and would need a lot of bases on it's own. Making this amount of investion into bases not only expensive, but useless in the long run.
Furthermore an enemy SoI which is baked by population should then be weighted 2:1 if not 3:1 against the military in a border clash, pushing them back. Otherwise the player would exploit this too much. And this would be more reasonable.

The "I can't steal land unless in war" factor with the borders is completly logical. No country would accept other nations to claim their territory, especially not if worthy ressoruces are involved. Though the Diplomacy needs a "buy land or colony" option. That is true.



sbach2o -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/6/2011 9:25:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

We will be taking another look at the sphere of influence, but a few other reported issues are higher priority at the moment. The sphere of influence may get another tweak for the first update, but it will definitely get a more detailed look for the second update.

Regards,

- Erik


Please don't listen to them!!

Honestly: This is a feature where you simply cannot please everyone. Personally I find the idea of territory in deep space that extends beyond the boundaries of a single system ridiculous! I can live with it in its current state, but think you have almost overdone it already and either should scale it back, globally, or introduce a slider in the game setup screen that controls how prominent these spheres of influence are.

I don't really know, why there is such a clamor for such a feature here, and can only guess it comes from those who are used to WWII tactical simulations and seek to extend that sort of experience into a space setting? Well, presumptuos of me, probably. And now I come along, (desparately) trying to be louder than them...





Webbco -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/6/2011 10:21:28 AM)

It's funny how many different views on spheres of influence there are here.

sbach2o, I think the one of the main reasons why they added this feature is because the map in DW is not (and cannot) be a 3D 'realistic' one. As an empire grows and expands, eventually mingling with other empires, the 2D map becomes messy making strategic decisions very difficult.

I personally like the concept. It may not be very realistic but I've enjoyed my games a lot more since SoI and that's what counts! I do agree with the point that the spheres (or rather circles [;)]) should expand at an increased rate as a colony grows.



HectorOfTroy -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/6/2011 10:24:13 AM)

Yep spheres made the game much more enjoyable. Prior to it, games would get way too messy, this way we have clearly definded territories which do make game more strategic. At least that is my opinion.



Gelatinous Cube -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/6/2011 10:27:23 AM)

Since we're all giving our opinions, I'll go with the majority: Spheres are good! Personally, I like them as-is. They are easily one of the best reasons to buy the Legends expansion.

While I applaud Codeforce for listening to its fan base, it is wise to remember that trying to please everyone will never work. Just stick with the vision, man.



sbach2o -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/6/2011 10:54:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Webbco

It's funny how many different views on spheres of influence there are here.


No, it is in no way funny, it is just to be expected.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Webbco

sbach2o, I think the one of the main reasons why they added this feature is because the map in DW is not (and cannot) be a 3D 'realistic' one. As an empire grows and expands, eventually mingling with other empires, the 2D map becomes messy making strategic decisions very difficult.


Messy, and then what? What is the issue there? It comes all down to play dynamics. When colonies and bases of enemies/adversaries can be freely intermingled with yours, the conflict lines are just different. Not in any way 'better' or 'worse'. It is rather a matter of taste of what one prefers or wants to live with.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Webbco

I personally like the concept. It may not be very realistic but I've enjoyed my games a lot more since SoI and that's what counts! I do agree with the point that the spheres (or rather circles [;)]) should expand at an increased rate as a colony grows.


And you are perfectly right to have your preferences. Realism is not something a game should strive for, the play dynamics, challenges and fun are the really important thing.

My personal preference I have hinted at (erm, with a sledge hammer [sm=00000028.gif]). Accordingly I am not very interested in whether spheres of influence grow fast or slow. I'd like a slider to control the weight to put on those spheres, so I could scale it back some and let others play at their prefered settings. Right now, the spheres look huge to me despite the increased distances between stars in the big games at 15 by 15 sectors.

The fundamental problem, btw. is that colonies tend to grow slowly at first and gain momentum late. The influence radius probably should be based on a logarithmic scale of population/strategic value/whatever to suit your needs. Although I suspect such a scale may already be employed. Maybe, if it is really based on strategic value, there's the problem. That is nailed to a low default value for a very long time, until a colony grows beyond a certain threshold (around 500 M population, typically?).

But aren't colonies with fewer people really insignificant? They are like a flag someone has planted down somewhere, but tend to contribute nothing to an empire, economy-wise. Just better mining outposts.



Torgrim -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/6/2011 11:44:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gelatinous Cube

Since we're all giving our opinions, I'll go with the majority: Spheres are good! Personally, I like them as-is. They are easily one of the best reasons to buy the Legends expansion.


Opinions are always welcomed but I wonder why you like blobs and not real territory system?



MasterChief -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/6/2011 1:04:51 PM)

I have to throw my two cents in for SoI's. They are a fantastic addition and I am glad to see that Erik and Elliot will be looking into tweeking them. I love the "flavor" they add to the game but I would like to see a little more "teeth" added to them... "You have entered my territory-- get out" type stuff. Guess growing up with Star Trek, I long for those ...we are crossing into the neutral zone... moments!

I would love to see SoI's play a bigger role in diplomacy... something along the lines of "Pride of Nations" diplomatic crisis.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/6/2011 3:03:50 PM)

Just to put everyone at ease, one of the things we're considering for Spheres of Influence is a setting that allows you to adjust their strength or weakness to your liking.

Regards,

- Erik



J HG T -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/6/2011 3:15:17 PM)

I was on the fence about the border/soi system, but I have to say I like it a lot now that I've played the Legends for a while.
Before Legends the empires could get really messed up when everybody colonized and built everywhere. It was absolutely chaotic at times, and that comes from a person that loved the game even without the borders.
The border/soi system still needs some small adjustments, but It's great that it was introduced in the Legends



WiZz -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/6/2011 4:10:40 PM)

A big tread about SoI and my opinion of its tweaking...
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2965547



Nedrear -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/6/2011 4:19:24 PM)

A slider for the scale is good - including "none", let the whiners see the RotS in full... muhaha - and will most likely calm about 60% of the people.
Still that leaves the "growth" issue of the sphere.

And I for one would support a neutral zone at SoI clash zones! Maybe you can get these through treaties?



Grotius -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/6/2011 5:10:42 PM)

quote:

Just to put everyone at ease, one of the things we're considering for Spheres of Influence is a setting that allows you to adjust their strength or weakness to your liking.

Sounds good to me. :)



ASHBERY76 -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/6/2011 9:25:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Just to put everyone at ease, one of the things we're considering for Spheres of Influence is a setting that allows you to adjust their strength or weakness to your liking.

Regards,

- Erik


I very much hope so and that strength setting should make new colonies SOI faster.

I am getting the same issues with colony spread as in the DW release.When I see an empire from the other side of the galaxy start their second or third colony near my space and see the freighters trying to supply it I want to turn the game off and play SOTS,MOO2 or Armada.Games with sensible clear border expansion based on range or fuel.



ASHBERY76 -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/6/2011 9:40:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sbach2o
Honestly: This is a feature where you simply cannot please everyone. Personally I find the idea of territory in deep space that extends beyond the boundaries of a single system ridiculous!


Last time I checked the game has FTL space navies that can travel the whole galaxy in a month and hence can detect and intercept quickly..

Also most sci shows and 4x games seem to like it to.

[image]http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/pdf/b5galacticmap2262.jpg[/image]



Harry2 -> RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion (12/6/2011 10:11:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nedrear

The "I can't steal land unless in war" factor with the borders is completly logical. No country would accept other nations to claim their territory, especially not if worthy ressoruces are involved.


Logical, yes if you have the strength to contest it. Logical as well (though infuriating), to ignore such incursions if the situation warrants it.

Besides, its "stealing" only if most parties recognize the ownership... but that's the problem here. Most parties do not recognize the ownership, or else have no stake in the matter, but ownership of a vast volume of space has been arbitraily granted to an empire by some powerful, unseen Authority (Deus ex Machina).

Its as if there really is some supreme organization above all the empires that grants ownerships of entire star systems without consultation.

"The Royal Terran Empire signed no such Understandings and do not recognize any such claims to systems outside the atmosphere of the newly established colony!"

The SoI needs to be :
Scaled back significantly in scope, preferably with an effects slider as as Eric has indicated
Based on more criteria than simply the colony development.

I find that the more of Legends that I play the more the current implementation of the SoI irks me. Its a shame really, went so much of the rest of Legends is so well done.




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