Tech trading needs some love (Full Version)

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DasTactic -> Tech trading needs some love (12/12/2011 4:16:46 AM)

The tech trading mechanic (as well as the scrap ship and steal research mechanics) in the game feels a little like an exploit.

I think it would be great if instead of immediately acquiring the tech you trade - it gives you a 50% credit in remaining research and gives you the 3-times speed boost (can't recall the name of this function in the game).

That way you still need to put in some research time to get the tech. This would still force specialisation and help with the strategic choices.

Race-specific tech would need to be a special case where if you gain 50% of the research it then becomes available for your race to finish the research.

Anyone else got any thoughts about this?



Gelatinous Cube -> RE: Tech trading needs some love (12/12/2011 4:27:26 AM)

I really do think no tech trading at all is the way to go, but instead maybe let good allies work on joint projects to improve eachother's understanding of eachother's different techs, slowly and incrementally?

Consider Babylon 5, where it was only at the VERY END of the five year story-arc that that one race of pretty girls decided that they *might* give the humans some Anti-grav tech.

I know people will say "But just don't use it!" Okay. Got it. Don't have to use it. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. All I'm saying is there's room for a better system.



feelotraveller -> RE: Tech trading needs some love (12/12/2011 5:03:30 AM)

I think that this area could certainly do with some love.

Joint research projects* sounds like a good idea, but maybe limit them to one in each field (Energy, Weapons, Hi Tech - allowing for balancing research costs) per empire and require some investment of cash but working out cheaper than crashing research. Negotiation for the actual techs in the joint research project could be quite involved. Could also lose all accumulated research if the relationship with your partner sours before the end. The benefits would be mutual but the speed based on combined research caps. If it was one of each field for each empire you had a joint research project with it would keep the diplomatic advantages/disadvantages of races in play.

In this case 'just don't do it' does not really apply as the computer will do it, and prolifically. (Sometimes I like to hamstring myself by house rule of no tech trading but it limits you quite a lot diplomatically.)

* I remember the tech treaties from MOO2 where you would pay and after a while the tech boost would kick in. That was good until you played harder levels where it was repulsive for the win.



AminMaalouf -> RE: Tech trading needs some love (12/12/2011 5:08:09 AM)

Tech trading, stealing tech has been harder since Legends. I simply do not make a lot of use of these features most of the time, although these are a features I would not want to miss in the game.



Gelatinous Cube -> RE: Tech trading needs some love (12/12/2011 5:08:19 AM)

I'm not too picky about how much it costs.. the idea is that getting tech from other races should be a more meaningful experience. Something you do *in addition* to your own research. All the money in the universe shouldn't be able to buy you all the tech. I think tech trading should be the result of long and good relations with another race, and then some money for a cherry on top.

Just my two cents though.



Gray Death -> RE: Tech trading needs some love (12/12/2011 6:41:02 AM)

The racial techs are, where I am after. What I cant get trough spying, I will get trough trading. ;)

The Dhayyut Velocity drive is always top of my prority list.



AminMaalouf -> RE: Tech trading needs some love (12/12/2011 6:48:08 AM)

I hope one day we get species specific tech trees with lots of unique toys.



Gray Death -> RE: Tech trading needs some love (12/12/2011 6:50:04 AM)

That would be very nice, or how it is in Sword of the Stars. I mean randomized tech tree with some core techs everyone becomes.



Xerberus86 -> RE: Tech trading needs some love (12/12/2011 7:20:16 AM)

why make it so complicated, i would made it like in galciv2 (i think). there you would ge bonus points in research, if you would have an research pact. something like this should be easy to come by in dw too. if you make an research pact / contract, you would get some research points for the selected research category, like an additional lab. let's say it would be a percentage of the research capacity of the other empire. in this case i would also limit the amount of research contracts an empire would sign, maybe to two or three.

greetz



Gelatinous Cube -> RE: Tech trading needs some love (12/12/2011 7:23:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Xerberus86

why make it so complicated, i would made it like in galciv2 (i think). there you would ge bonus points in research, if you would have an research pact. something like this should be easy to come by in dw too. if you make an research pact / contract, you would get some research points for the selected research category, like an additional lab. let's say it would be a percentage of the research capacity of the other empire. in this case i would also limit the amount of research contracts an empire would sign, maybe to two or three.

greetz


With all due respect, they eventually added a "No Tech Trading" option in GalCiv2 for the exact same reasons that many people don't like tech trading here.



feelotraveller -> RE: Tech trading needs some love (12/12/2011 8:10:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Xerberus86

why make it so complicated, i would made it like in galciv2 (i think). there you would ge bonus points in research, if you would have an research pact. something like this should be easy to come by in dw too. if you make an research pact / contract, you would get some research points for the selected research category, like an additional lab. let's say it would be a percentage of the research capacity of the other empire. in this case i would also limit the amount of research contracts an empire would sign, maybe to two or three.

greetz


One good reason is that the tech leader, if sufficiently advanced, will not gain anything from research treaties. You will need to find an empire with tech you want but don't know and who wants some of your tech which they don't know. Of course the computer would be set up (generally) to not want to get the raw end of any research deal... It is not just a general 'more research' mechanism but one of diplomatic bargaining, and possibly, counter-offer. These techs for those techs? No, no, we want that one. Well, how about...?

Secondly it is good to have some cases where you will lose out from making a research pact and to require you to maintain decent relations with your research partners (and not just to attain decent relations momentarily to make the treaty). The money requirement is to make sure that these cannot just be spammed with everyone right from the beginning of the game. Putting a hard cap on the number of research treaties will work against the diplomatic powerhouses who you would expect to be able to make more treaties than xenophobic isolationist races.



Evil Steve -> RE: Tech trading needs some love (12/12/2011 8:23:10 AM)

personally, I feel that techs specific to available resources as specified by planet type (ie racial) would be great. if you trade for tech, you have to have the "exotic" resources to manufacture it, which implies trading ties with the source of the exotic tach, and adds to the strategic game in terms of sourcing resources for the tech.

Steve



Cauldyth -> RE: Tech trading needs some love (12/12/2011 1:01:33 PM)

Add me to the list of people in favour of a No Tech Trading toggle in game setup, at the very least.

At a more sophisticated level, the other ideas mentioned here sound good too. Trading only getting you to maximum X% of completion on a project, tech trading just giving a boost to research, etc. I would really love a Diplomacy-focused third expansion to Distant Worlds that fleshes things like this out. [;)]



Evrett -> RE: Tech trading needs some love (12/12/2011 2:37:48 PM)

I play on "expensive" research settings and I'm ok with the overall costs and functions of tech trading. That said I feel "buying" a new tech should feel like HUGE burden on your economy and a choice you make only is specific situations. Currently, while expensive, I still have a "oh need to check the races for new techs to buy" feeling. I still cant afford most tech but the feeling could be helped to be less casual.

A tech trading off option or no brokering where you cant sell stuff you didnt invent yourself seems reasonable and I'd be in favor of that. Or perhaps an "x credits per month for x months" as sort of a tech "rental" contract.

I've seen races get really advanced single tech and I'm wondering if this is from the scraping option. If never used this since having cap ships early is such a benefit..how does it work?




Jerkface -> RE: Tech trading needs some love (12/12/2011 3:34:48 PM)

Just starting playing with legends.  Tech trading is still way too powerful. Short term, a no-tech trade game option would be nice.  Long term, the idea of two parties working together on the same project? Very cool.  Not sure about retiring and exploiting tech...perhaps an option to turn that off as well.  Right now it seems keeping recovered ancient ships seems much more useful than retiring them, so maybe working as designed.



Grotius -> RE: Tech trading needs some love (12/12/2011 3:40:02 PM)

I also agree, at a minimum I'd like a no-tech-trading toggle. There's no way to do that now?

I wouldn't even mind an option that allowed the AIs to trade tech among themselves but denied me the same privilege -- a cheat that might help the AI and make the game more challenging. But that too would have to be an option that could be toggled off, because I imagine most people wouldn't want to use it. Me, I don't mind a cheating AI. :)

Longer-term, I'd love tech trees that change from game to game, or race-specific tech trees, or (ideally) both.



Shark7 -> RE: Tech trading needs some love (12/12/2011 4:14:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

I also agree, at a minimum I'd like a no-tech-trading toggle. There's no way to do that now?

I wouldn't even mind an option that allowed the AIs to trade tech among themselves but denied me the same privilege -- a cheat that might help the AI and make the game more challenging. But that too would have to be an option that could be toggled off, because I imagine most people wouldn't want to use it. Me, I don't mind a cheating AI. :)

Longer-term, I'd love tech trees that change from game to game, or race-specific tech trees, or (ideally) both.


On the other hand, I've been known to trade techs to keep empires alive that I want to keep. I also do it to make the game harder on myself. I just wish the reputation bonus for a tech trade was nixed.



Spacecadet -> RE: Tech trading needs some love (12/12/2011 4:18:39 PM)

Compared to other versions of DW, Tech Trading now is far more difficult than it has ever been.

Playing with Extreme Slow Tech Research speed, you'll see that it is really much more difficult.



Grisha -> RE: Tech trading needs some love (12/12/2011 5:27:14 PM)

I agree that it might be ideal to make traded techs have a delayed component to them as you suggest, Das. I don't think it's a good idea to do away with tech trading though. It would destroy the uniqueness of the Zenox and Quameno races who live off tech trading, rather than commerce.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Das123

The tech trading mechanic (as well as the scrap ship and steal research mechanics) in the game feels a little like an exploit.

I think it would be great if instead of immediately acquiring the tech you trade - it gives you a 50% credit in remaining research and gives you the 3-times speed boost (can't recall the name of this function in the game).

That way you still need to put in some research time to get the tech. This would still force specialisation and help with the strategic choices.

Race-specific tech would need to be a special case where if you gain 50% of the research it then becomes available for your race to finish the research.

Anyone else got any thoughts about this?




DasTactic -> RE: Tech trading needs some love (12/12/2011 6:21:51 PM)

If there was a toggle switch to turn tech trading off I would have it turned off for now.

Raising the price is not really a good option because all you would need to do is research a high level tech and the price difference would be negated.

I like the idea of a diplomatic tech treaty where a percentage of each empire's tech ability is added to the other empire - say 10% or 20%. That would be a good addition even if the actual tech trading itself was tweaked.

Maybe its as simple as not allowing tech trading for techs worth more that $X where $X is around $200k to $500k. That way the low level techs can be traded easily but you can only access the higher level techs by completing  a proportion of the research yourself. Of course - this would stop the trade of race-specific techs which I wouldn't really mind much.



ASHBERY76 -> RE: Tech trading needs some love (12/12/2011 6:28:16 PM)

Tech spam is still an issue with the A.I in Legends.

No tech brokering and the A.I understanding that sellling some tech should not be considered would help.The A.I has no strategic view on techs at all, it will sell you anything and everything.



Cauldyth -> RE: Tech trading needs some love (12/12/2011 6:35:30 PM)

Another approach would just be to throttle tech trading. Your empire can only assimilate foreign technology so fast. Once you obtain a foreign technology in a trade, you are unable to obtain more via trade until a certain cooldown period has expired. The more valuable the technology you've traded, the longer the cooldown.

You could even make it so the technology you traded for isn't available until the end of the cooldown period. That would represent the time it takes your scientists and engineers to integrate the technology.



Keston -> RE: Tech trading needs some love (12/12/2011 6:48:36 PM)

I thought tech brokering is already out. It's only natural that stealing/buying should be much quicker and cheaper than re-inventing.

Straight tech trading is just a substitute for espionage - another way of getting what you want unless the other side tries hard to keep i secret. Keeping things secret is difficult once the technology sees action.



Manzikert -> RE: Tech trading needs some love (12/12/2011 10:40:43 PM)

I wish I could go back in time and kill who ever it was first introduced tech trading to PC games.  It is a detriment in every game I have ever played with it, and several games have after the fact added in toggles to remove it.  The AI can never use at as well as a player and it completely undermines the value of research.



Cauldyth -> RE: Tech trading needs some love (12/12/2011 11:10:56 PM)

Yes, it's annoying when 75% of my tech advances come from trading, and only 25% come from my actual research. I generally just don't do it when I play - partly because I don't like it, and partly because I just never think of "shopping around" to see what's available. I generally contact other empires with a specific purpose, not just to browse.

On the bright side, by not doing it myself, it gives the AI an advantage to make them more challenging.



Grisha -> RE: Tech trading needs some love (12/12/2011 11:29:28 PM)

Exactly, Keston. Or in the case of the Quameno, a means to a living. For them research is where they get their livelihood. The Zenox are somewhere in between. But, yes, buying technology can be seen as 'under the table' if explanations are needed.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Keston

I thought tech brokering is already out. It's only natural that stealing/buying should be much quicker and cheaper than re-inventing.

Straight tech trading is just a substitute for espionage - another way of getting what you want unless the other side tries hard to keep i secret. Keeping things secret is difficult once the technology sees action.




MartialDoctor -> RE: Tech trading needs some love (12/13/2011 2:35:20 AM)

I like the ability to trade tech but I agree with others that it needs to be more difficult to do.

I do like the OP's suggestion as well.  This would not allow one to purchase the tech outright and may work out nicely.



Ares106 -> RE: Tech trading needs some love (12/13/2011 6:20:35 AM)

I like Das123's suggestions it reminds me of Hearts or Iron series.

Perhaps we can also go a step further and introduce "timezones" for each tech proportional with the overall tech speed and penalties for jumping ahead in one category of research ( also like in HOI)


Btw, does the AI trade tech between themselves? (if the answer is no i will probably stop trading tech altogether)



Gelatinous Cube -> RE: Tech trading needs some love (12/13/2011 6:27:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ares106

I like Das123's suggestions it reminds me of Hearts or Iron series.

Perhaps we can also go a step further and introduce "timezones" for each tech proportional with the overall tech speed and penalties for jumping ahead in one category of research ( also like in HOI)


Btw, does the AI trade tech between themselves? (if the answer is no i will probably stop trading tech altogether)



Oh yeah, they do. The AI periodically looks around for people they can sell stuff to, and is very interested in making money.



MartialDoctor -> RE: Tech trading needs some love (12/13/2011 9:15:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ares106

Perhaps we can also go a step further and introduce "timezones" for each tech proportional with the overall tech speed and penalties for jumping ahead in one category of research ( also like in HOI)



Ah, yes, I know they have that in the Europa Universalis series. It is an interesting feature and I think works quite well.



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