Knocking out Red Army in 3 months - Emir vs Cannonfodder (Full Version)

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Emx77 -> Knocking out Red Army in 3 months - Emir vs Cannonfodder (12/21/2011 10:18:04 PM)

Version: 1.05.45
House rule: No airfield attacks after turn 001

As it has passed half a year since my last game, I'm intending to write AAR in order to refresh and improve my playing skills as Axis. In that regard any comments and advices from other players are welcomed. I count that will help me to deepen my understanding of WitE. So be free to comment or ask anything.

Also, I hope that this AAR can be useful for developers also, as they pointed before that AARs were primary way to check how simulation behaves in long term.

As I am non-native English speaker I would like to apologize in advance if I make grammar mistakes. That, and reason that I have pretty busy schedule these days, will impact way in which this AAR is going to be presented. I will present only most essential screenshots with comments only where I feel it will be necessary to explain something. I assume that this AAR will be read mostly by people who already have some experience with WitE and for them a picture (e.g. screenshot) is worth a thousand words :-)

During course of play I'm fond of collecting and presenting various data but I need a help here. What are most important, interesting and useful data to track? For example, how about number of rifle squads (or any other element) in replacement pool, losses (total or for some specific elements - bombers for example?), trucks, production (what production data exactly?)...

TURN 001

Here is the end of Axis opening turn. In figure you may see main avenues of advance as well as created pockets.I think it is more or less standard Axis opening. During airfield bombing campaign Luftwaffe scored 3.934 soviet aircrafts. I lost 216 planes (mostly bombers who were shot down by Flak's fire). I hope this is a good score, right? What is standard for first turn air losses anyway?


[image]local://upfiles/11514/402F04908EFA4494A69804D21539C2F4.jpg[/image]

Comments?



Callistrid -> RE: 1.05 - Emir (Axis) vs Cannonfodder (Soviet) No CF (12/21/2011 10:30:57 PM)

Good begin.
Moscow will be your primary object?



TulliusDetritus -> RE: 1.05 - Emir (Axis) vs Cannonfodder (Soviet) No CF (12/21/2011 11:12:08 PM)

Emir, sorry to ask this but every time I see controlled hexes off I ask the same: could you please toggle the controlled hexes on (we could see the thin corridors, interesting parts of the front, etc)? And then the fort levels (now irrelevant, true)?

Thanks and good luck and hunt [:)]



Emx77 -> RE: 1.05 - Emir (Axis) vs Cannonfodder (Soviet) No CF (12/22/2011 8:27:03 PM)

@Callistid - I will concentrate on center for beginning. If it is going to be Moscow I can't tell yet. All depends how events will unfold. After Smolensk I will asses situation and make final decision where to direct main effort.

@TD - I hope this map version is better. BTW, I'm color blind for green-red combination and I can't tell any difference with this layer turned on. For me it is all red.

TURN 002

Panzer units are still advancing forward. Main action is around previously formed pockets as I'm trying to eliminate them. Soviets start to form defensive lines mainly around major natural obstacles (rivers, swamps, etc.). Pay attention to multiple lines in Ukraine on route to Kiev. Also, enemy is leaving enough troops before his primary defensive belts to slow me down. I attack some of these units and simply bypass and encircle others where is possible.

I guess Cannonfodder (CF) strategy will be combination of checkboard and linebacker defense. That is indication of experienced Soviet player and I'm expecting he is also good at avoiding encirclements. BTW, any advices how to best handle such defense?

In this turn I made decision to send XIV PZ Corps south to Kishnev. I hope this will surprise or at least force CF to spread his forces thin in Ukraine. There is also good opportunity for exploiting Kishnev gap with armored units in order to reach Odessa and Nikolaev as soon as possible.


[image]local://upfiles/11514/0CB9CEF6E8DE46C089D7AD8FBF89F1A6.jpg[/image]



Callistrid -> RE: 1.05 - Emir (Axis) vs Cannonfodder (Soviet) No CF (12/22/2011 11:02:10 PM)

Interesting strategy... but, with the new HQ build up rules, dangerous... what rail line will you use?



Peltonx -> RE: 1.05 - Emir (Axis) vs Cannonfodder (Soviet) No CF (12/22/2011 11:45:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

Interesting strategy... but, with the new HQ build up rules, dangerous... what rail line will you use?



Not really you can HQ build-up in north and center on turn 4 still.

The rules only effect things past turn 5 to 7 depending on how fast your advance is.

Read the new rules carefully, its not what it seems. It does cut down the speed, but not always.



wmcalpine -> RE: 1.05 - Emir (Axis) vs Cannonfodder (Soviet) No CF (12/24/2011 2:11:23 AM)

Emir,

I really like the yellow markups on your maps. It works quite nicely with my poor vision and color-blindness. I am only a noob, but this looks like a great start. I will be watching with great interest.

Bill



Emx77 -> RE: 1.05 - Emir (Axis) vs Cannonfodder (Soviet) No CF (12/26/2011 12:28:57 PM)

TURN 003

Nothing interesting in the North and Center. Panzer units are mostly exhausted and low on fuel. They need replenishment and will not be used during turns 3 and 4. In meantime, infantry and rest of German Army is moving to catch up with Panzers. Soviets are strengthening their defense lines.

No major operations in South expect for advance of XIV Pz. Corps. However planned breakthrough is bogged down in series of clashes with Soviet units. In attempt to pocket Soviets units west of Odessa XIV Pz. found himself isolated at beginning of turn 4 after soviets successfully exploited gap between panzer divisions and infantry. Fortunately, XIV Pz.Corps hasn't advanced to far and it has solid amount of fuel on hand to resume advance once again on turn 4.

[image]local://upfiles/11514/49DD83D607C540C08B3660CB8FAAB253.jpg[/image]

EDIT: During this turn I have started redistribution of German support units and run out of administration points. Many SU's are in OKH but still, somehow, I spent all of AP's. Didn't noticed that until the end of turn.



Emx77 -> RE: 1.05 - Emir (Axis) vs Cannonfodder (Soviet) No CF (12/26/2011 1:02:37 PM)

Turn 004 aftermath and beginning of Smolensk and Pskov Operation

Here is situation at the beginning of turn 005. During previous turn, Germans encircled 15 Soviet units around Zhitomir. However, pocket didn't hold and, as a result of Soviet operations, entire XXXXVIII Pz. Corps and two divisions of III Pz. Corps found themself isolated. At least, 16th Mot. Division stayed outside and there is good chance that she will be able to bypass and encircle Zhitomir.

Same thing around Odessa. Unfortunate XIV Pz. Corps was cut off for second time along with some infantry division from LIV Corps.

At this point I must admit that my opponent is very good at isolating Panzers. However, every time he do this, he is sacrificing more Soviet units in relief attempts. Also, I'm not sure how many replacements are going into these relieved units which will be pocketed again on following turn?

[image]local://upfiles/11514/E5E977F38DD4416684695D1E86A83FDE.jpg[/image]



Emx77 -> RE: 1.05 - Emir (Axis) vs Cannonfodder (Soviet) No CF (12/26/2011 1:44:27 PM)

Statistics Lover Corner - OOB

Here are OOB figures after first month of operation Barbarossa. Figures are recorded at the very beginning of each turn.

Note that number of men and guns in Red Army are increasing (they have 10% more men and 3% more guns after one month), but number of AFVs and aircrafts are decreasing considerably. They have 46% less AFVs and 40% less Aircrafts. Germany has 20% less AFVs compared to what they had at beginning of Barbarossa.

[image]local://upfiles/11514/9FEE96023A324AF3A3994A66BDC97B08.gif[/image]



Emx77 -> RE: 1.05 - Emir (Axis) vs Cannonfodder (Soviet) No CF (12/26/2011 1:44:47 PM)

Statistics Lover Corner - Losses

[image]local://upfiles/11514/414F2E3B77FB4145B02EE26211A74DF2.gif[/image]



bigbaba -> RE: 1.05 - Emir (Axis) vs Cannonfodder (Soviet) No CF (12/27/2011 1:15:51 AM)

very nice looking maps. which paint software are you working with, emir?

you seem to have a very aggressive opponent with all that counterattacks.

most players (including myself) take their legs in their hands when they discover german panzertruppen in their flank.






Emx77 -> RE: 1.05 - Emir (Axis) vs Cannonfodder (Soviet) No CF (12/27/2011 10:16:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

very nice looking maps. which paint software are you working with, emir?


Thank you. Here is a list of necessary tools:

1. MILSketch software with some custom arrows and lines. You can read review here.

2. Pain.NET 3.5 with "Object outline" plug-in for outlining texts and other objects.

Both programs are free of charge.



gingerbread -> RE: 1.05 - Emir (Axis) vs Cannonfodder (Soviet) No CF (12/27/2011 10:58:25 AM)

"Also, I'm not sure how many replacements are going into these relieved units which will be pocketed again on following turn?"

None, since the units are isolated in the logistics phase which is when replacements are distributed.

"Note that number of men and guns in Red Army are increasing"

Soviets starts with a lot of manpower and ARM's points in the pool (open the scenario in the editor to see exact numbers - last time I checked it was 800k men & 1.5M ARM). The men get distributed very early, i. e. turn 1 and all SU's will also be almost 100% TOE after the first logistics phase.



Emx77 -> RE: 1.05 - Emir (Axis) vs Cannonfodder (Soviet) No CF (12/27/2011 7:10:04 PM)

@gingerbread - Thank you for clarification.

TURN 005 - End Situation

You can see situation at the end of turn 005. Both, Smolensk and Pskov, operations were successful. I hope that I managed to properly seal the pockets this time and that Soviets will not be able to open them by slipping some cavalry or tank divisions through gaps as before.

All in all, I have counted about 60 Soviet combat units in these newly created pockets (over 70 if we count HQ's and Airbases). I hope that this will lead to collapse of Soviet North and especially Central front. South is another story. Recon data shows continued Red Army efforts in fortifying line along Dnepr river.


[image]local://upfiles/11514/17EC9495116142A89DCCCA96F41C2436.jpg[/image]



sillyflower -> RE: 1.05 - Emir (Axis) vs Cannonfodder (Soviet) No CF (12/27/2011 10:33:23 PM)

But if CF has got his reserves in the right position, he will blow away a lot of those regiments esp broken down panzers which have b#gg~r all defence strength.



Schattensand -> RE: 1.05 - Emir (Axis) vs Cannonfodder (Soviet) No CF (12/28/2011 3:02:15 AM)

Absolut super presentation.
Seems you have forgotten 2. Armee in turn 3 and 4.
Placing them north I dont like, later troops are missing in the south and are not really needed in the north.
Using a whole corps to take Tallin is total wastage.
A single sec unit is enough there.
Railling XIV down south in turn 2 is really the best, what one can do with them.
Using PG1 so far north, hmm and braking all down, hmm, hmm. I will see.
No corps of PG2 in the south. But ok, if you can use them for good, as I see, in Smolensk area.
The approach is somewhat historical, good luck.



bigbaba -> RE: 1.05 - Emir (Axis) vs Cannonfodder (Soviet) No CF (12/28/2011 3:10:52 AM)

personaly i dont like breaking up panzerdivisions because of the MP lose when regrouping them in the next turn. but in 41 a RCT (regimental combat team) of a german panzerdivision can defend the pocket wall against most russian attacks.

something what will not work in 42 with all the russian corpes defeating an entire german PD.

good luck with the pockets. if you can keep them closed its a great victory.



Peltonx -> RE: 1.05 - Emir (Axis) vs Cannonfodder (Soviet) No CF (12/28/2011 11:02:05 AM)

nice spreed sheets.




Emx77 -> RE: 1.05 - Emir (Axis) vs Cannonfodder (Soviet) No CF (12/31/2011 6:36:48 PM)

@Sillyflower - You had right. CF opened all major pockets, except northern. All these Red units are doomed anyway, but he will slow me down a little.

@Schattensand - I haven't forgotten 2. Armee. Just needed to decide where to send it. I'm not sure whether to send it to North or Center. I never send Pz. Corps to South. I can live with three which are already in Ukraine :-) And yes, it is a historical approach so far.

Turn 006 - End situation

I resealed southern and center pockets again. Northern pocket is eliminated.

It seems that he doesn't have any forces around Chernigov. That could be key to unhinge his forces around Kiev and Dneper. However, XXXXVI PzC which is closest to Chernigov, is weakened by relocation of one armored division to XXIV PzC for battles around Mogilev on previous week. Also XXXXVI PzC supply situation will not allow rapid advance.

I'm behind schedule around Odessa. XIV PzC should be in Nikolaev by now but he is forced to move slowly because these resilient pockets and constant fighting. At least, XIV PzC has enough fuel and is very close to railhead.

Soon, I will have to decide how to approach Leningrad - with right hook or direct assault. It seems that he doesn't have a lot of forces south and west of Leningrad. But terrain is difficult for direct assault and I'm sure he will pump more divisions here.





[image]local://upfiles/11514/D2F715CC56C542E8BB01842E2D3C27E0.jpg[/image]



Texasgrunt -> RE: 1.05 - Emir (Axis) vs Cannonfodder (Soviet) No CF (12/31/2011 10:24:51 PM)

Leningrad - Good going clearing our Pskov by turn 6. The rail line needs to run thru there. Also, recon the straight shot to Leningrad but be sure to make a run around the east side of Lake Ilman. If you can cut the rail lines east of the lake all the way to Sviritsa then Leningrad is isolated and doomed. Slogging thru the swamps north of Novgorod is slow going and you can run out of time.

Moscow - the Sov situation there is not good, losing the north Dnepr line that quickly. Press on, encircle as many units as possible (evern 2-3 at a time, small pockets) because those propellers cannot dig trenches in front of Moscow. But in the end you will have to encircle Moscow to take it, hopefully closing the noose just before mud. Bryansk is a noce objective before mud but anything farther cannot be supplied into the blizzard, so get the XXIV Pz headed to Kaluga.

Odessa - be careful to leave a retreat hex for the unit there, so it can retreat out of the city and then be isolated/killed next turn. otherwise it will retreat to Sevastopol and you have to kill it again.

South - I'd make III Pz and XIV Pz to lilnk up at Churkassa and pocket whatever he leaves south of the Dnepr. Use the XXXIV Pzz to head for Dnepropetrovsk and then Kharkov.

Finally security. I'd be darn sure the Pripyet is clear of any Russians stray dogs and fully garrison all cities. Looks liek you are on the garison thing - I hate partisans.

Don't let up the attack until the turn before blizzard. Even in mud, keep attacking.



Emx77 -> RE: 1.05 - Emir (Axis) vs Cannonfodder (Soviet) No CF (1/2/2012 7:56:15 PM)

Turn 007

[image]local://upfiles/11514/5ACEDFFFD03748FF9E79274097DEA04D.jpg[/image]



Emx77 -> RE: 1.05 - Emir (Axis) vs Cannonfodder (Soviet) No CF (1/2/2012 7:59:29 PM)

Turn 008

[image]local://upfiles/11514/5179510E179D469395C1E14CD69C3DE3.jpg[/image]



Emx77 -> RE: 1.05 - Emir (Axis) vs Cannonfodder (Soviet) No CF (1/2/2012 8:03:53 PM)

TURNS 009-010

[image]local://upfiles/11514/3524589683DE4E6FB62A4612B4F8AE63.jpg[/image]



Emx77 -> RE: 1.05 - Emir (Axis) vs Cannonfodder (Soviet) No CF (1/3/2012 12:13:08 AM)

TURN 11

Here it is. Mother of all lines. I have bumped into it. Direct result of sir Robin strategy.

[image]local://upfiles/11514/3CA0653D522B4AEF9C3AA98380E7C74D.jpg[/image]



Apollo11 -> RE: 1.05 - Emir (Axis) vs Cannonfodder (Soviet) No CF (1/3/2012 12:55:51 AM)

Hi all,

Great AAR Emir - and I absolutely love the graphics! [:)]


Leo "Apollo11"



Baelfiin -> RE: 1.05 - Emir (Axis) vs Cannonfodder (Soviet) No CF (1/3/2012 2:30:45 AM)

that second link seems a little dangerous
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic


quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

very nice looking maps. which paint software are you working with, emir?


Thank you. Here is a list of necessary tools:

1. MILSketch software with some custom arrows and lines. You can read review here.

2. Pain.NET 3.5 with [://paint.net.amihotornot.com.au/]"Object outline" plug-in for outlining texts and other objects.

Both programs are free of charge.




gingerbread -> RE: 1.05 - Emir (Axis) vs Cannonfodder (Soviet) No CF (1/3/2012 3:11:50 AM)

..., no gain, right?



Texasgrunt -> RE: 1.05 - Emir (Axis) vs Cannonfodder (Soviet) No CF (1/5/2012 3:48:54 AM)

Nice work cutting rail lines to Leningrad - that helps but is not enough to reduce the city defenses. Now you need to punch thru to Sivirte on Lake Ladoga east to isolate the city, and units will begin to surrender.

There is no excuse for the Finns taking so long to make progress on the east side of the Lake. There is almost no reason to send many Finns toward Leningrad since they can;t attack until the city is already taken. Always send 75% of the Finn army east to awai linking up with Manstein (I use him for the push east of Lake ilmen, just for fun).

Waste no time in front of Moscow - go around that short defense line. Once you cross the Volga Canal (north of Moscow) and the NAra (sourh of Moscow) he has to retreat or lose the line with the city.

he has a lot of meat in front ot Crimea but you should make a hard run south and clean him out. But the main effort should be for Stalino and Kharkov.

Keep making small pockets, trapping individual units. Reducing his counter count forces him to use precious APs creating units and makes it hare to buy SUs and very hard to combine units in to corps.

Keep atacking, even in mud. But there is no reason to put much effort into any push east past Kalinin, north of Kalinin. Taking Yaroslav can be done but can't be done until 1942. TIme to be careful about your choices of attack lines to conserve men and fuel.

Finally, pound his air force into dust with AB attacks or else it will give you hell in 1942.



Emx77 -> RE: 1.05 - Emir (Axis) vs Cannonfodder (Soviet) No CF (1/6/2012 7:30:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Texasgrunt

Nice work cutting rail lines to Leningrad - that helps but is not enough to reduce the city defenses. Now you need to punch thru to Sivirte on Lake Ladoga east to isolate the city, and units will begin to surrender.

There is no excuse for the Finns taking so long to make progress on the east side of the Lake. There is almost no reason to send many Finns toward Leningrad since they can;t attack until the city is already taken. Always send 75% of the Finn army east to awai linking up with Manstein (I use him for the push east of Lake ilmen, just for fun).


I'm trying exactly that. I know that once you link with Finns Leningrad is doomed. Although progress is slow I'm expecting to cut off Leningrad before mud. BTW, main drawback of right hooking Leningrad is that it takes time and becomes content of the strength. When your opponent realize what you are trying to pull, he will start pumping units in those marshes and woods slowing you to a crawl. On the other hand if you manage to link with Finns that usually result in huge pocket with at least 20-30 Soviet divisions inside. I'm afraid even to think what would it be if you, as German, fail in right hook operation.

By your advice I am sending additional Finns divisions in the area.

quote:

Waste no time in front of Moscow - go around that short defense line. Once you cross the Volga Canal (north of Moscow) and the NAra (sourh of Moscow) he has to retreat or lose the line with the city.


This plan looks good on paper but it will be very difficult to carry out it on the battlefield. He has a lot of forts and is carpeting area with infantry divisions. I will try to break defensive belts and surround Moscow but I don't have much time left and my forces are at maximum strain. I would say that my chances are 50:50.

quote:

he has a lot of meat in front ot Crimea but you should make a hard run south and clean him out. But the main effort should be for Stalino and Kharkov.


You are right. Crimea is my weak spot. I need to send German Corps here to seal it for winter. I simply don't have resources and time to clean Crimea in '41.

quote:

Finally, pound his air force into dust with AB attacks or else it will give you hell in 1942.


We are playing with house rule: No AB attacks after first turn. Although, I already feel that strength of red AF is increasing. I can tell that by numerous interdiction attacks during last turns. Also I have my own problems as my fighter numbers are decreasing. I wrote about it here.



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