Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (Full Version)

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mmarquo -> Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/5/2012 9:32:50 PM)

I just started to check out the newest patch; and unless my memory is completely shot, it appears as if the 25th and 16 MTZ Divisions are now fixed, which effectively does in the Lvov pocket...or am I hallucinating?

And...I waas only able to destory 2,000 Soviet aircraft on the ground (down from ~ 3,600 before).


Well done [:)]



Encircled -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/5/2012 9:37:12 PM)

Its a Soviet Fan Boy patch remember

Wait till you see that the Tiger Tank has been replaced by bicycle recon units[;)]

In all seriousness, you'd thought somebody might have mentioned that as its quite important......



Flaviusx -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/5/2012 9:37:38 PM)

Huh? I just started a new game against Baelfin and he did a Lvov pocket just fine.

Aircraft losses on the surprise turn were surprisingly low, though. Right around the same 2k you're reporting. Wasn't expecting that.



JAMiAM -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/5/2012 9:43:00 PM)

Marquo, you are indeed, hallucinating. Those two Motorized Divisions have always been frozen on turn 1. They, along with the rest of PG 1, activate on turn 2.



Farfarer61 -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/5/2012 9:45:19 PM)

Yup, but see the paranoia that's out there now... :)



Cerion -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/5/2012 9:54:45 PM)

quote:

And...I waas only able to destory 2,000 Soviet aircraft on the ground (down from ~ 3,600 before).


Same for me (2,190 already).

Regards



mmarquo -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/5/2012 9:58:31 PM)

No - something is not right? There are only now only 4 armored divisions from the 1st Panzer Group with are mobile on T1; the 24th Pz Corps releases on T2 - I think this is different. Perhaps the pocket can be done if the 24th Pz Corps from AGC is diverted south....are you guys sure??????

[X(]



OTZ -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/5/2012 11:43:29 PM)

Panzers are fine, air losses on T1 are markedly lower.



mmarquo -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/6/2012 12:35:51 AM)

Okay, I'm just paranoid - but still.....



JAMiAM -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/6/2012 12:55:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

No - something is not right? There are only now only 4 armored divisions from the 1st Panzer Group with are mobile on T1;

Same as it ever was...


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

the 24th Pz Corps releases on T2 - I think this is different.

You mean the 14th (XIV) Pz Korps, don't you? That was always frozen on turn 1.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo
Perhaps the pocket can be done if the 24th Pz Corps from AGC is diverted south....are you guys sure??????

I generally use the XXXXVI Pz Korps from PG 2 to assist. Also, some of the infantry and the cavalry from XXIV Pz Korps. But, yeah...I'm sure...[;)]



Michael T -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/6/2012 1:10:29 AM)

Marquo what ever you do don't elaborate on my version of the Lvov pocket. Or poor old Flav will have a fit.



mmarquo -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/6/2012 2:09:30 AM)

Michael,

With time and the perspective of many PBEMS, AARs, and history, it seems that the the Lvov pocket as it plays out in WITE, sets the stage for a domino effect which has resulted in deep introspection; this introspection has resulted in many good patches and updates; but IMHO the fundamental issue of supply has not really been addressed.

My opinion (FWIW): revisit the logistical rules and the Lvov pocket.

Marquo [:)]



Michael T -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/6/2012 3:24:10 AM)

As usual Marquo you offer a reasonable and well balanced view.



parusski -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/6/2012 3:30:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

I just started to check out the newest patch; and unless my memory is completely shot, it appears as if the 25th and 16 MTZ Divisions are now fixed, which effectively does in the Lvov pocket...or am I hallucinating?

And...I waas only able to destory 2,000 Soviet aircraft on the ground (down from ~ 3,600 before).


Well done [:)]


I can't comment about the Lvov Pocket, but I have started 4 games just to bomb Russian airfields and the most Soviet aircraft I have destroyed is 2122.



kevini1000 -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/6/2012 5:05:16 AM)

Yeah I expected the number would shrink after the earlier patch. They went from 50% to 33% for planes hitting airfields even on turn 1. It shold have been left at 50% for turn 1.





parusski -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/6/2012 12:16:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sath

Yeah I expected the number would shrink after the earlier patch. They went from 50% to 33% for planes hitting airfields even on turn 1. It shold have been left at 50% for turn 1.





I agree. At first I thought I was dreaming when the number of commie air planes I destroyed fell by about 60%.



Denniss -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/6/2012 7:46:16 PM)

Pavel made some changes to the air combat model so aircraft would not use drop tanks to kill enemy ground units, tac bombers would not use their defensive guns (only forward) or level bombers would not use any guns at all (they are assumed to be bombing from high above, out of effective range of their guns).
This may have influenced the aircraft bombing results.
Remember how surprising it was for an infantry squad to be killed when an aircraft drop tank fell onto their head(s).



Baron von Beer -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/6/2012 8:16:11 PM)

Question is, is it too little now? Seems ~2-4,000 losses in the opening days is the most common figure in books etc, but that was accomplished by a Luftwaffe that was also flying CAS, interdiction, etc. In game, the player must commit 100% of his air missions to airfield strikes just to reach the low end of those numbers.



Baron von Beer -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/6/2012 8:21:04 PM)

*oops, didn't mean to post again, please delete



Helpless -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/6/2012 8:25:56 PM)

quote:

the player must commit 100% of his air missions to airfield strikes


it is physically impossible.



parusski -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/6/2012 9:58:08 PM)

quote:

Remember how surprising it was for an infantry squad to be killed when an aircraft drop tank fell onto their head(s).


Well I have grown to depend on killing infantry squads with drop tanks. New tactics needed...[8D]



kevini1000 -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/6/2012 11:21:44 PM)

So I guess it make no difference if Russian planes losses are 50% less now on turn 1. I guess a fix is only needed or counts if it help the Russian side now. Honestly anyone with half a brain understood what the prior 2 patches would do the turn 1 Russian aircraft losses and you all did it anyway. This is just flat out blatant now. There is actually some merrit to what Pelton is saying. He might not argue is best manner but you all are so convinced that this is the best course that you go right along.



traemyn -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/7/2012 12:06:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sath

So I guess it make no difference if Russian planes losses are 50% less now on turn 1. I guess a fix is only needed or counts if it help the Russian side now. Honestly anyone with half a brain understood what the prior 2 patches would do the turn 1 Russian aircraft losses and you all did it anyway. This just flat out blatant now. There is actually some merrit to what Pelton is saying. He might not argue is best manner but you all are so convinced that this is the best course that you go right along.



Can we please get some more responses from testers/dev on this change before sath starts handing out tinfoil hats? Thanks



Timmeh -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/7/2012 12:06:55 AM)

careful, some glass stomachs might need to be installed...this way fanboys could see where they are going.

I dont believe a group with over 50% flight use will fly a bombing run... so its always going to have half its capacity left for dem udder missions? 2K plus is possible with a little coaching but now I need to choose between those crappy fighters up close that will be overrun first turn or more juicier bombers farther away. The more you go at those bomber bases farther back the more fighters up close will escape turn one.

Better play than obliterating the entire front first turn as was in the original release no?



kevini1000 -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/7/2012 12:30:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: traemyn


quote:

ORIGINAL: sath

So I guess it make no difference if Russian planes losses are 50% less now on turn 1. I guess a fix is only needed or counts if it help the Russian side now. Honestly anyone with half a brain understood what the prior 2 patches would do the turn 1 Russian aircraft losses and you all did it anyway. This just flat out blatant now. There is actually some merrit to what Pelton is saying. He might not argue is best manner but you all are so convinced that this is the best course that you go right along.



Can we please get some more responses from testers/dev on this change before sath starts handing out tinfoil hats? Thanks


Honestly that is straight up personel.



traemyn -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/7/2012 12:38:25 AM)

I thought it was more of a light jab at the over-the-top tone your post conveyed. I apologize regardless.



Flaviusx -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/7/2012 12:58:59 AM)

Well, I'm not entirely thrilled with these results either. It's not like I want another 2,000 biplanes and prewar junk. It takes forever as it is to run those inventories dry, this is just going to be more APs I have to spend for manual aircraft upgrades. The Luftwaffe was a silent partner in the Soviet air modernization program, now, not quite so much.








Baron von Beer -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/7/2012 1:58:28 AM)

[:D] The new German tactic, drop spare parts and fuel instead of bombs so the Soviets have to fly I-15s even longer?



csarebel -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/7/2012 2:23:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baron von Beer

[:D] The new German tactic, drop spare parts and fuel instead of bombs so the Soviets have to fly I-15s even longer?


LOL...thats a good one.



jazman -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/7/2012 2:39:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Well, I'm not entirely thrilled with these results either. It's not like I want another 2,000 biplanes and prewar junk. It takes forever as it is to run those inventories dry, this is just going to be more APs I have to spend for manual aircraft upgrades. The Luftwaffe was a silent partner in the Soviet air modernization program, now, not quite so much.



So would you recommend the Germans skip airfield bombing on turn 1 altogether? If 2000 junk planes is a bad thing, why isn't 4000 junk planes even worse?



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