RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (Full Version)

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Flaviusx -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/7/2012 3:36:58 AM)

I wouldn't go that far.

From my perspective, all the Luftwaffe need do is smash the forward airfields and make sure no Soviet fighters can respond to their ground support and interdiction missions. Everything after that is just contributing to the Soviet air modernization program. Virtually nobody leaves air miles unused going into the Soviet turn -- and I'm extremely relieved of that because there's no interdiction to slow me down even more than is already the case with the crippled first turn movement rates. Luftwaffe interdiction is amazingly annoying.

Air supremacy is not synonymous with a huge casualty count on the enemy side; there's a point where this whole business of killing obsolete aircraft by direct bombing missions yields diminishing returns and arguably negative ones in terms of opportunity costs. I've long been bemused by the Axis fervor for driving up these surprise air attack numbers. Beyond that the most effective way to keep the Red Air Force off balance is to overrun airfields and force others to redeploy backwards to avoid getting overrun, it is the disruption caused by the ground advance that really hurts more than anything else.



Farfarer61 -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/7/2012 3:43:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jazman


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Well, I'm not entirely thrilled with these results either. It's not like I want another 2,000 biplanes and prewar junk. It takes forever as it is to run those inventories dry, this is just going to be more APs I have to spend for manual aircraft upgrades. The Luftwaffe was a silent partner in the Soviet air modernization program, now, not quite so much.



So would you recommend the Germans skip airfield bombing on turn 1 altogether? If 2000 junk planes is a bad thing, why isn't 4000 junk planes even worse?



LFMAO. Brilliant!!!
Irony AND logic - wonderful. +1

Lets demand "No manual upgrade option for the Red Air Force. This will ensure full historical OOB." [full disclosure - I leave it all on auto and forget about it anyway. It is ALL good if you have enough of it.] :)



johnnyvagas -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/7/2012 5:56:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jazman


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Well, I'm not entirely thrilled with these results either. It's not like I want another 2,000 biplanes and prewar junk. It takes forever as it is to run those inventories dry, this is just going to be more APs I have to spend for manual aircraft upgrades. The Luftwaffe was a silent partner in the Soviet air modernization program, now, not quite so much.



So would you recommend the Germans skip airfield bombing on turn 1 altogether? If 2000 junk planes is a bad thing, why isn't 4000 junk planes even worse?



[:D] The Axis should also lend-lease over to the Russians some of the more craptaculor aircraft types from Romanians, Hungarians, Italians, etc. That would really confound Flavo’s air war strategy.



mmarquo -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/7/2012 11:05:38 PM)

The Axis player should also wipe out the Soviet recon units; other than that...


Marquo



carlkay58 -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/8/2012 12:00:03 AM)

If you are playing the Barbarossa scenario rather than the Grand Campaign, you get +1 VP/5 planes destroyed. So the Axis are losing 200+ VPs leaving 1000 Soviet planes laying around.



Farfarer61 -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/8/2012 3:39:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

If you are playing the Barbarossa scenario rather than the Grand Campaign, you get +1 VP/5 planes destroyed. So the Axis are losing 200+ VPs leaving 1000 Soviet planes laying around.
if 2000


An artificial and silly VP item for GC. I am waiting for reply on if 2000 is ad why isnt 4000 worse.



jazman -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/8/2012 3:50:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I wouldn't go that far.



Perhaps you meant:

"I wouldn't want my opponents to go that far."

[:D]



Aurelian -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/8/2012 7:47:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

If you are playing the Barbarossa scenario rather than the Grand Campaign, you get +1 VP/5 planes destroyed. So the Axis are losing 200+ VPs leaving 1000 Soviet planes laying around.
if 2000


An artificial and silly VP item for GC. I am waiting for reply on if 2000 is ad why isnt 4000 worse.


My guess. AP wise it doesn't matter if you upgrade a group with 5 planes or one with 40.



Flaviusx -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/8/2012 7:55:02 PM)

Farfarer, I have responded to this.

Look up the phrase "opportunity cost."




Mehring -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/8/2012 9:51:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I wouldn't go that far.

From my perspective, all the Luftwaffe need do is smash the forward airfields and make sure no Soviet fighters can respond to their ground support and interdiction missions. Everything after that is just contributing to the Soviet air modernization program. Virtually nobody leaves air miles unused going into the Soviet turn -- and I'm extremely relieved of that because there's no interdiction to slow me down even more than is already the case with the crippled first turn movement rates. Luftwaffe interdiction is amazingly annoying.

Air supremacy is not synonymous with a huge casualty count on the enemy side; there's a point where this whole business of killing obsolete aircraft by direct bombing missions yields diminishing returns and arguably negative ones in terms of opportunity costs. I've long been bemused by the Axis fervor for driving up these surprise air attack numbers. Beyond that the most effective way to keep the Red Air Force off balance is to overrun airfields and force others to redeploy backwards to avoid getting overrun, it is the disruption caused by the ground advance that really hurts more than anything else.


Up to a point. Playing German I always used first turn to destroy Russian recce and heavy bombers, flying deep inland to do so. These planes remain useful to a player who knows how to use them.

As for the rest of post patch, playing Russian I noticed reduced air losses first turn from what I was used to. Otherwise, Germans who understand how the game works can steamroll at a ridiculous rate, just as ever. I'm now awaiting turn 4 from Germany, expecting worst scenario- evacuation rail link out from Leningrad to be cut, Smolensk taken, the Dnepr crossed near Moghilev and Cherkassy, Kiev contested and units adjacent to Zaporozhye, preventing evacuation.

I never played a German that knew how to do this before and I don't think I could have last time I played German. The Russian side has got progressively weaker in 1941 when it should always have been made stronger and the German players who couldn't achieve great results sent to war game school.




Flaviusx -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/8/2012 10:25:19 PM)

Mehring, even in the old days of losing up to 5k planes it was always possible to find more than enough level bombers to conduct interdiction and partisan supply missions. There's a ton of slack here.

Recon planes, granted, are a something of a chokepoint, but I've always managed to scrounge up enough of them to cover the front in 41. I don't need to fly a crazy number of recon missions to get a good idea where the panzers are, this is nearly always fairly obvious in 1941, as they tend to be committed to the front almost continually. I also picket the German line aggressively and put a zoc on everything which gives you plenty of intel.

The other category where the Red Air Force is critically short in is tactical bombers. But this doesn't matter much because ground support is effectively useless for the Red Air Force in 1941. This is simply baked into the code. (Pieter and I have tested this and gotten the same results, ground support in 41 just doesn't work. It will never fly more than a handful of planes at a time and these tend to get shot out of the sky. Only in 1942 does this hard coded disorginization go away.) Therefore you should pull those out and wait until 1942 to fly any ground support whatsoever.

Possibly I do things differently than other Soviet players. I disband airfields aggressively and mostly just leave 3 per front. The Soviet Union has so many air regiments that it's easy to fill the remaining airbases up in 1941, leave a healthy number in reserve, and cycle reinforcements into the airbases as on map air assets wear out. This is true even with the old and vastly inflated first turn losses.

Given this, I always welcomed the Luftwaffe wasting air assets on bombing missions beyond a certain point, as it will accelerate my ability to upgrade the Red Air Force. I've long wondered why more Axis players don't keep some air miles unused for interdiction at the end of the surprise turn. That would be a lot nastier than running up the score on airbases.



Mehring -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/8/2012 10:54:47 PM)

Flavius, possibly, it's difficult to say given the shifting relations with each patch.

I guess my old airfield bombing tactics are void now, but I'm getting a few kill results daylight bombing corps HQs (only t3 and NBAPs aren't yet ready to fly). I'm aware the Russians tended to bomb from too high and very inaccurately in 1941 but 150-200 dead on a game mission is not unusual and it's taking out a good number of attached heavy guns, also even larger numbers of disrupted supports. Not sure it has the logistical effect it should and no surprises there, but planes are flying and hitting targets, particularly the heavies.

Interdiction, I can't tell if it reduces enemy MP, something I could really do with in my current game. Could make or break it as I'm struggling even to evacuate armaments.

I usually only disband airfields if I sense a lack of support squads, preferring to spend the APs on sapper and AA battalion disbands and respective regiment builds. Come August 41 most airfields have always been well occupied or used for staging. So no, I haven't tried your strategy there.



Farfarer61 -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/9/2012 3:01:36 AM)

Flavius, I apologize if seemed to say anything adverse concerning your posts. I have incorporated essentially all your insights into my Soviet play style. Your suggestions have saved me months of floundering. I play both sides and I am a WITE fanboy.

Using Airborne HQs to control Div Artillery contributing 24 CV each since all their Para units were converted to Guard Infantry is allowed. OK. I get it.

However, playing Axis, and although I would love to combine the I,II,III,IV Light chinese new year nebelwerfer celebration companies I can't.



LiquidSky -> RE: Lvov Pocket Gambit Done In? (2/9/2012 7:08:02 AM)



The Germans did make an artillery division by disbanding the 18th panzer division and turning it into the 18th artillery division.



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