Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (Full Version)

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Justus2 -> Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/19/2012 10:07:40 PM)

When setting up my carrier groups, what are the best altitudes for torpedo bombers, to keep coordinated strikes? I know I need my dive bombers in the 10-14K range in order to dive, are TBs effective in those ranges too? At campaign start, they are usually at 9K, do they lose effectiveness if I set them higher?

Will the groups from a carrier TF stay coordinated if I split the alititudes? I've seen recommendations to set the TB and DB at 13K, and fighters at 15K, will they still escort properly? If I had for example TB at 9K, DB at 13K, and Ftr at 15K, will it still go as one strike, or will they get split up?

Also, if not using torps (say against ground targets), will TBs still glide bomb? And what altitude should I use for that?

Thanks!!



Shark7 -> RE: Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/20/2012 5:48:40 PM)

They will always go down to proper level for their torpedo attack, so really its a matter of where they can best avoid cap/flak. I simply keep mine at the standard 5k they start at.



aphrochine -> RE: Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/20/2012 10:31:32 PM)

I set my TB's at 10k in the last few attacks my TB's dropped bombs as well as torps. Verified all orders and all were set to torps.



Dan Nichols -> RE: Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/20/2012 11:30:28 PM)

Did you have enough torpedoes for all of the TBs?



nate25 -> RE: Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/20/2012 11:41:40 PM)

aphrochine,

You to have your TBs based with an air HQ that provides torpedo ordnance (Naval Air Flotillas or Army Air Divs.).

It's also necessary to make sure every turn that these HQs have the torpedoes. If for example you set your torpedo ordnance to 72 and you have two groups of 36 Betties that operated out of that base and flew naval attack missions the turn before, you have to reset your torpedo ordnance again. It takes supply out of the base total for every torp.

Thanks,
Nate



Justus2 -> RE: Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/21/2012 12:34:57 AM)

Thanks for the responses. Has anyone had problems with the TBs not coordinating well with the rest of their carrier's planes (DBs/Ftrs) if you set them to the lower altitude? I had left one CVs group at 9K, but noticed they attacked alone a couple times, instead of with the rest of the group.

And if I am not using torps (like against an airfield), will TBs glide-bomb at the same altitudes as a DB would? What do they do between 10K and 15K?



zzodr -> RE: Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/21/2012 1:41:27 AM)

The best alt for TB's is where the pilot can stick his hand out of the cockpit and wash it in the ocean as he flies to the target.



LoBaron -> RE: Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/21/2012 5:25:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zzodr

The best alt for TB's is where the pilot can stick his hand out of the cockpit and wash it in the ocean as he flies to the target.


[img]http://fsfiles.org/flightsimshots/images/832clean.png[/img]



koniu -> RE: Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/21/2012 5:42:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:

ORIGINAL: zzodr

The best alt for TB's is where the pilot can stick his hand out of the cockpit and wash it in the ocean as he flies to the target.




I always wondering is this passable to droop torpedo from so low attitude like in picture. I think he will bounce from water and return to plane[:D]



Puhis -> RE: Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/21/2012 9:10:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Justus2

And if I am not using torps (like against an airfield), will TBs glide-bomb at the same altitudes as a DB would? What do they do between 10K and 15K?


I think TBs cannot glide bomb anymore. Lates patch changed that. Now TB without torpedoes are just level bombers.



LoBaron -> RE: Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/21/2012 9:39:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:

ORIGINAL: zzodr

The best alt for TB's is where the pilot can stick his hand out of the cockpit and wash it in the ocean as he flies to the target.




I always wondering is this passable to droop torpedo from so low attitude like in picture. I think he will bounce from water and return to plane[:D]


Its too low for a skip bombing run for sure. You would most probably have the bomb sticking in your
cockpit after a realease this low.

Torps OTOH are designed to penetrate the water surface, submerge, and then stabilize at the preset dephth.
I donīt know about the watersprout though.



Sardaukar -> RE: Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/21/2012 10:31:49 AM)

I always keep my Allied CV DBs & TBs at same altitude, in my case 13k. This will improve strike co-ordination and ensure that escort Wildcats fly at their optimal altitude (+2000 ft) 15k.



CT Grognard -> RE: Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/21/2012 10:55:17 AM)

The Japanese Type 91 aerial torpedo went through a number of revisions.

The first version introduced in 1931 could only be released at airspeeds below 130 knots and at altitudes no higher than 30m (or just about 100 ft). Only biplanes could safely be handled at such slow airspeeds, the new, fast Kates had to have their landing gear extended.

Another tactic for use in shallow-water ports was to drop the torpedo at 100 knots at an altitude of 10m - almost impossible in a Kate (had to lower landing gear and flaps to increase drag).

The improved second version in August 1941 could be dropped at in excess of 160 knots at 60m altitude, mainly because of the wooden attachments on the tail fins that were shedded on water entry. Doctrine was to release the torpedo at a range of 800m from the target at 180 knots from a height of 60m - meaning the torpedo entered the water 3.5 seconds later at a speed of 180 knots and an entry angle of 22 degrees 300m from the release point, after which it would take 21 seconds to run the remaining 500m to the target.

The torpedo could be dropped at 10m at closer range from the target - from just over 600m away.

Kates managed to successfully drop torpedoes at speeds above 200 knots, at times, which surprised the Americans no end at the beginning of the war.

Essentially release height is limited by the strength of the propeller, dropped from too high your screw blades start cracking; released too fast from too low and your torpedo skips the surface.

A fast torpedo-bombing technique was developed by an IJAAF pilot in a Ki-67 Peggy. He tested releases extensively (he performed over 300 tests!), and found optimal high-speed releases as follows:

1. Start in a deep dive from 5000ft to the water level.
2. At a speed of 250-300 knots, release the torpedo from at least 50 metres but less than 120m (the faster, the higher).
3. At a speed of 200-250 knots, release the torpedo from at least 30 metres.

To answer the question posed, a torpedo could be dropped from as low as 5 metres, provided your airspeed's low enough so it doesn't bounce.

One thing's for sure, torpedo bombers had big, brass cojones.



LoBaron -> RE: Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/21/2012 10:58:33 AM)

Good stuff, thanks.



LoBaron -> RE: Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/21/2012 11:04:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I always keep my Allied CV DBs & TBs at same altitude, in my case 13k. This will improve strike co-ordination and ensure that escort Wildcats fly at their optimal altitude (+2000 ft) 15k.


This was what I thought as well, until I found out that theres no such thing as an optimal
altitude of the F4F within the alt bands relevant.

The mvr value of the F4F ramains the same up to 20k, so considering your post the optimal alt
would be 15k for the strike, not 13k.

The 13k band is rather interesting for the Japanese though.



koniu -> RE: Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/21/2012 11:11:11 AM)

quote:

To answer the question posed, a torpedo could be dropped from as low as 5 metres, provided your airspeed's low enough so it doesn't bounce.


A am not pilot expert. I do not sit in plane ever.
But 5 meter is almost suicidal. You are easy target to AAA as you need fly slow. Even small hit or you hand move to much and you crashes in water.
Also slower you fly, slower you will leave area and climb after torpedo drop.

But of course we are speaking about Japanese tactic so suicidal is good



CT Grognard -> RE: Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/21/2012 11:12:33 AM)

How's this for scary - in 1944 the Japanese worked on a 2-tonne aerial torpedo for use by the planned 4-engine G8N Rita.

It was planned to be a 21-in torpedo over seven metres long with a massive 750kg warhead (the warhead on the Type 91 being 235kg HE).



CT Grognard -> RE: Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/21/2012 11:14:39 AM)

Exactly, which is why they introduced the high-speed torpedo tactic in 1944 [;)]



zzodr -> RE: Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/21/2012 11:40:26 AM)

Trimming the aircraft for that height/speed would have been a SOB, no margin for error.




Dili -> RE: Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/21/2012 1:38:40 PM)

quote:

But 5 meter is almost suicidal. You are easy target to AAA as you need fly slow.


5m is better than 100m. Many guns are eventually masked by others and some can't point downward. The problem with low release besides the inherent risk is that main ship artillery can be employed, a wall of watter in front of a torpedo plane at 300km/h might down it. The British did it in Mediterranean.



CT Grognard -> RE: Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/21/2012 2:20:51 PM)

Yep, HMS Nelson and HMS Rodney using their 6-inch DP secondary batteries to fire shells directly into the sea to throw up water spouts to down low-flying Italian torpedo bombers.

Bismarck did the same thing against Swordfish torpedo bombers.



Sardaukar -> RE: Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/21/2012 4:42:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I always keep my Allied CV DBs & TBs at same altitude, in my case 13k. This will improve strike co-ordination and ensure that escort Wildcats fly at their optimal altitude (+2000 ft) 15k.


This was what I thought as well, until I found out that theres no such thing as an optimal
altitude of the F4F within the alt bands relevant.

The mvr value of the F4F ramains the same up to 20k, so considering your post the optimal alt
would be 15k for the strike, not 13k.

The 13k band is rather interesting for the Japanese though.


Yes, you are absolutely correct. F4F-4 seems to have MVR 20 up to 20k...(wonder why I thought it was still only up to 15k). This would make 15k altitude best for DB & TB.



aphrochine -> RE: Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/21/2012 4:55:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan Nichols

Did you have enough torpedoes for all of the TBs?


Yes, my CV's had plenty of torps onboard.



quote:

ORIGINAL: nate25

aphrochine,

You to have your TBs based with an air HQ that provides torpedo ordnance (Naval Air Flotillas or Army Air Divs.).

It's also necessary to make sure every turn that these HQs have the torpedoes. If for example you set your torpedo ordnance to 72 and you have two groups of 36 Betties that operated out of that base and flew naval attack missions the turn before, you have to reset your torpedo ordnance again. It takes supply out of the base total for every torp.

Thanks,
Nate


My TB's were not land based, but CV based.

As I mentioned, the same TB squadron dropped both bombs and torps while striking at 10k. I'll see if I can find the report.



dr.hal -> RE: Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/21/2012 8:03:40 PM)

For coordination purposes I believe that all aircraft should be at the same altitude, thus maximizing from this dimension the possibility of a coordinated strike (keeping in mind that there are other factors that figure into coordination such as launch points, etc.). The PROGRAM will break this up into proper segments such as putting the fighters 2K feet higher than the bombers. As was mentioned, torpedo aircraft is so equipped will drop down to delivery altitude no matter what their setting; SO to enjoy the full benefits of fighter cover, it is best to keep them at the same altitude as the bombers and fighters. As dive bombers do so only if flying between 10-14K altitude, than that range is the altitude IF you have dive bombers going along for the ride. If alone I think torpedo bombers should fly low to give them a low radar or observation horizon and thus the shortest amount of time to target. If you look at the combat results you will note that one statistic listed is time to target. Low altitude should impact and shorten that time if it is somewhat realistic.



Alfred -> RE: Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/21/2012 9:24:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

... If alone I think torpedo bombers should fly low to give them a low radar or observation horizon and thus the shortest amount of time to target. If you look at the combat results you will note that one statistic listed is time to target. Low altitude should impact and shorten that time if it is somewhat realistic.


The game air combat model is that realistic. Fly "under the radar" and you improve the odds of evading high cover CAP.

Alfred



dr.hal -> RE: Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/21/2012 9:48:18 PM)

Thanks Alfred, that's good to know as it is a realistic tactic that was used quite often not only against radar but the Mk1 Mod1 eyeball. But does the counter concept apply? If you fly TOO low, such as 100 feet then the pilots "search" area is very limited! So is there a corresponding reduction in a low aircraft having more difficulty locating its target? So many questions so little time. Hal



Alfred -> RE: Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/21/2012 10:16:53 PM)

If you are still referring to TB, the answer is no. Naval attack effectiveness is affected by the DL of the target. If you look at s.10.1.1.1 of the manual you won't find altitude being factored into the equation. You do however find other assets (other than aircraft) which do contribute to establishing the DL.

Alfred



Xxzard -> RE: Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/21/2012 10:23:13 PM)

I tried to test this a while back. Not scientifically, just a couple of tests on the Guadalcanal scenario. One flight of Betties flew at 10k ft, the second test had them at minimum altitude. The results were inconclusive with just those two tests. While detection time was reduced for the second group, fighters still had time to attack them.

I then ran out of time, and left it with just those two tests. Perhaps if you reran the scenario enough times you would see statistically significant results.



Alfred -> RE: Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/21/2012 11:36:53 PM)

I said flying "under the radar" improves the odds of avoiding high cover CAP. It actually very much depends on exactly what altitude the CAP is at, whether layered CAP is being employed, the rate of descent/ascent of the particular fighter model and whether anything else is attracting the attention of the CAP.

Therefore the best instance of flying "under the radar" is when other strike aircraft are also flying at a significant delta altitude, or the enemy has concentrated its CAP in anticipation of meeting a high flying incoming strike.

In any case, dr.hal's post #26 is whether flying at too low a level, the strike aircraft would miss their target. The aircraft will fly off towards their target on the basis of DL and choose the targetted ships based on DL. Factors such as weather, smoke, disruption cause by CAP etc can impact adversely but low altitude does not.

Alfred



Dili -> RE: Best altitudes for Torpedo Bombers (2/21/2012 11:40:15 PM)

quote:

Yep, HMS Nelson and HMS Rodney using their 6-inch DP secondary batteries to fire shells directly into the sea to throw up water spouts to down low-flying Italian torpedo bombers.


In stories i have read it wasn't the 6in but the main 16in batteries that made a wall of water.



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