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Walloc -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (7/20/2012 6:42:04 PM)
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Hi Joel,
I was wondering if there was any plans of changing the way, how and amount of feedback the player gets from the game?
I've been thinking about this lately and a very recent thread on thewargamer caught my eye too. For example the combat display screens is more or the less same design as when i played Second Front 22 years ago. Games have gotten more and more complex since then. Yes u can set details to lvl 9 and see whats shoots on what and so on, but lets be honest next to one one use that. I dont think ppl get more information from that, just a whole lot more information that will confuse ppl more.
U can get the detail screen up but its not default and i think its rare that ppl use it. Unless they have a particular reason. I also doubt many get the feeling they are getting much from that screen. Ok, my GS disrupted 75 elements. Nice to know but what exactly do i get from that? is it 70 support elements and 5 AT rifles helping nada or is it 75 inf squads reducing opponets CV, and then by how much.
They way that the command penalties are listed gives ppl a real sense of, ok this costs me that much doing it this way. Ppl know what they can do differently to improve their odds and it gives ppl a chance to learn. Instead of feeling, eh why did this happen?
Problem is that while getting to know u get +/- 10% 20% or what ever is helpfull. When u have Modified CV going +/- 300%, the information of the +/- 20 % pales in comparison. Many ppl have next to know idea why and how modifying CV works. What exactly affects it.
I can understand the need for FoW and keep calculations hidden in order to keep ppl from optimizing. Problem is if the price is that ppl feels left in the dust. Having no idea what happens and there for no idea what u can improve. Not what can i learn from this, how can i do better. Or even ok i did what i could, nothing i can do better but atleased i know why.
I'd stipulate that human pschye works in ways that if ppl feels rewarded they'd come back for more. Instead if much around them is confusion, a sense of not being able to control events around them, that the opposite is true. Many ppl will shy away and not come back.
I think the dev team if not aledy are doing should seriously consider this for future titles. If it for the games sake wouldnt be better with screens that much more condense the information and more detailed lists, what did what/effects of what.
1. GS removed 4 CV or 5% or how ever. I dont need to know it disrupted 15 elements but the effect or some measure of that, very possibly including a certain amount of uncertanty accounting for FoW.
2. Eng removed 1 fort lvl doing this amounts to X in reduce defending CV. I mean it might be seen as be given away to much information but its not exactly a secret what 1 lvl of fort do for ur CV. Ppl know that from building them, them sels and seeing what it does to their CV. So why not just list the effect. Giving every one a chance of learning faster giving them direct feedback on what can alrdy be gauged if u wana invest the time. Leveling the playing field, but also giving ppl the direct information of, ok i did this, it had this effect. Working with ppl, instead of working "against" em.
3. Art disrupted X CV by their fire(could even possibly give some clues to why instead of full reasons. Like hasty attack = less fire, enemy forts reduce art effectivity, terrain = x reduction.
4. 1 leader roll failed(again giving clues if not reason to why), 1 succeded affecting CV like X
5. and so on.
I dont mean a very long list confusing ppl, but condensed information that gives if not 100% the reasons why at leased some clues to what exactly affected what and why the result ended the way it did. I have no doubt that ppl will feel much more satisfied if they get feedback they can use and learn from. Im sure better idea's can be found than the ones i outlined above, but i think it can be done in a way letting ppl feel more empowered, while keeping FoW.
I dont think this is some thing for combat screens alone. For example there are different threadsholds for moral in where the movement point for entering enemy hexes changes. Again its not some thing that cant be figured out by doing some tests, but why keep this information "hidden".
Why not let ppl know when moving through pop ups, mouse over or what ever.(possibly being able to turn off).
What is accomplished having such information "restricted", to those making tests to figur it out/spends x about of time on the forums. Why making the learning process stepper than it has to be, by not making information readily availble.
There are many, many of these examples where the game could be made more availble for all, not a restricted few. Empowering ppl, leaving ppl with a sense of satisfactions instead of frustration, leveling the playing field, very possibly making the process of balancing the game easier cuz the outliers in player abilities will be narrower.
From listen to ppl I get the feeling tho maybe wrongly so that ppl feel at times they fight the game/system more than they fight the opponent. If that is true, while there is no way u can satisfy all and every one. I cant help wonder if this isnt the achilles heel of 2by3 games.
I love complex games, I've been playing GG games since june 1990. But again i cant help having the feeling and also from listen to other ppl that in some ways nothing has changed in 22 years. Maybe understandbly so, but unless alrdy being done. Maybe 2by3 games could use a visit from Gordon Ramsey. Shaking things up a bit, question things. What can be improved. Are we stalled in 1990, could things be done different, without changing the complexity of GG games just change the way feedbacks to the player are handled, exactly because the games are so complex. If this indeed isnt GGs strong suit, not that i in way know, is there some one u trust and can work with that could help with that. Getting more satisfied customers/player base.
In short what im advocating is a fundemetal different approche to how the game(s) handle the way feedbacks to the player are done. This doesnt mean that u necesarrily have to divulge much more than now. Much information are indeed availble for those willing/able to find it. Why not have all that information open in a condensed form rdy availble for all. So feeding the players useble information directly and in a manner that makes it apparent to all, what the consequnces of their actions are and what u then can learn from that.
Ok, ill return to my cave
Rasmus
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