Extremely Cautious German AI?

Extremely Cautious German AI? (Full Version)

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jimh009 -> Extremely Cautious German AI? (3/5/2012 10:26:16 AM)
Hi, First time posting in this forum. I bought this game last week, as I always loved the old Eastern Front game that Matrix games redid years ago. I've been playing on the "normal" setting for now since I'm still learning the ropes of how the game operates, and because these scenarios are so short. After fiddling around with the Leningrad scenario, where I surprisingly held the AI to a draw despite not having the first clue what I was doing (command and control, what was that?), I then played the Smolensk scenario. The AI kicked butt for the first few turns, then suddenly went dormant - leading to a Soviet Major Victory. Yet what really puzzled me was what happened in the scenario I just finished - the Drive on Kiev. From the very first turn the AI struggled mightily, managing to get three of the panzer groups surrounded after the Soviet turn 1. Worse, the AI essentially went into hibernation after the Panzer group broke out. While I did have multiple, fairly strong defensive lines stacked behind each other in the northern half - making a true breakout tough if not impossible - what really puzzled me was the complete lack of any attacks by the stacks of Germans that were on the line against the Soviets. It was common to have the Germans with stacks of 50+ CV facing a lowly Soviet tank brigade or other unit with 3CV and 2 fortifications behind a river. The German AI just sat there and basically did nothing. As the turns went on, I became more and more puzzled why the AI refused to attack. To top it all off, on the German AI's 9th turn (and with the game hopelessly out of reach for the Germans), the AI imitated a kamikaze and swung two of it's panzer divisions way down South through a weak spot in my line south of Vinnista. The AI raced these panzers until they literally ran out of gas - one of which was 10+ hexes away from the front line and completely isolated. The result was that on the last Soviet turn, both Panzer units (9th and 14th PZ divisions) were surrounded by a hoarde of lowly Soviet infantry units and destroyed! To give you an idea how bad the AI did in this Kiev scenario, the Soviets ended up with a decisive victory, only giving up two towns - Vinnista (which didn't even fall until the 9th turn) and Kotovsk. Anyways, I bring this all up to ask a question - is the AI really this bad in this game? Or are the problems the AI is experiencing related somehow to these short scenarios? Or is the AI somehow "choking" when it faces a thick defensive line where true panzer breakouts are difficult to come by?

Aurelian -> RE: Extremely Cautious German AI? (3/5/2012 10:46:19 AM)
Turn AI settings to 110 and try again.

Apollo11 -> RE: Extremely Cautious German AI? (3/5/2012 11:12:49 AM)
Hi all, The 100% vs. 100% (i.e. "Normal") is good for beginners where they learn the game! The 110% vs. 100% (i.e. "Challenging") is the settings where AI will start to be much more dangerous! The AI is AI and it needs the "boost"... [:)] BTW, you can read good AARs in our AAR subforum from people playing Ai at 110%! [:)] Leo "Apollo11"

mmarquo -> RE: Extremely Cautious German AI? (3/5/2012 12:27:01 PM)
Apollo, are you suggesting that varying the percentages makes the AI perform any better logically? Adjusting the AI's percentages doesn't make it any "smarter," does it? It only gives it a mathematical advantage during computations. Is this not correct?

Apollo11 -> RE: Extremely Cautious German AI? (3/5/2012 12:36:56 PM)
Hi all, quote: ORIGINAL: Marquo Apollo, are you suggesting that varying the percentages makes the AI perform any better logically? Adjusting the AI's percentages doesn't make it any "smarter," does it? It only gives it a mathematical advantage during computations. Is this not correct? AI percentages does not make AI "smarter" - those only change some odds probabilities... Leo "Apollo11"

Karri -> RE: Extremely Cautious German AI? (3/5/2012 12:43:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apollo11 Hi all, quote: ORIGINAL: Marquo Apollo, are you suggesting that varying the percentages makes the AI perform any better logically? Adjusting the AI's percentages doesn't make it any "smarter," does it? It only gives it a mathematical advantage during computations. Is this not correct? AI percentages does not make AI "smarter" - those only change some odds probabilities... Leo "Apollo11" In other words the AI routines only have the AI attacing if it has a certain advantage, and the only way to gain such an advantage is to give the AI bonuses and/or the player penalties.

Apollo11 -> RE: Extremely Cautious German AI? (3/5/2012 12:58:39 PM)
Hi all, quote: ORIGINAL: Karri quote: ORIGINAL: Apollo11 quote: ORIGINAL: Marquo Apollo, are you suggesting that varying the percentages makes the AI perform any better logically? Adjusting the AI's percentages doesn't make it any "smarter," does it? It only gives it a mathematical advantage during computations. Is this not correct? AI percentages does not make AI "smarter" - those only change some odds probabilities... In other words the AI routines only have the AI attacing if it has a certain advantage, and the only way to gain such an advantage is to give the AI bonuses and/or the player penalties. The AI will attack even with 100% (or lower percentages) if it assesses that the attack is possible! Giving higher percentages to AI (like 110%) only enables bigger chance that some dice rolls will be positive (i.e. for example that MPs will be near MAX because leader rolls for MPs are more favorable to pass)... Leo "Apollo11" Leo "Apollo11"

mmarquo -> RE: Extremely Cautious German AI? (3/5/2012 1:31:57 PM)
Given the above, how would increasing the percentages make the AI more aggressive and actually fight, which is what the index thread of this post focused on?

Erik Rutins -> RE: Extremely Cautious German AI? (3/5/2012 1:46:42 PM)
The fact is that it does though - if you've played against the AI on Normal vs. Challenging, the difference is pretty clear. It seems to be more aggressive on Challenging and also gets more units to deal with. Regards, - Erik

Karri -> RE: Extremely Cautious German AI? (3/5/2012 2:13:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apollo11 The AI will attack even with 100% (or lower percentages) if it assesses that the attack is possible! Well, I know nothing of how the AI calculates odds, so this is purely a guess, but I think the AI is set to attack if it meets certain criterias. Ie. odds. I am guessing this is what you mean by saying "attack is possible". The problem is that when game is set on "100&100" the AI never gains these odds. When it's 110&90 the odds go beyond the threshold and the AI decides that the attack is possible. That is to say, higher logistics, moral etc for ai, more strenght for AI units. Opposite for your units.

Joel Billings -> RE: Extremely Cautious German AI? (3/5/2012 5:17:03 PM)
The AI does tend to be conservative in nature. It both assesses the overall strategic picture and combat potential of both sides, and the tactical situation in any given area. Strategically, it decides whether it's in an offensive posture or a defensive posture based on the force ratios (and possibly time, although I'm not sure if that's still a factor in the latest AI code). If in an offensive posture, depending on the force ration, the weather (and again possibly the time period), it decides whether it is looking for encirclements, and if so, how deep of an encirclement it is willing to attempt. Given the finesse needed to pull off encirclements (something AIs are not good at), it requires a decent advantage over the enemy to be in this mode of thinking. By increasing the difficulty level, you are not only giving the AI an advantage (better leader rolls, better supplies, better fort building, etc.), you are changing the force ratios giving the AI a chance to think aggressively (and with the strength to pull it off without having to play as well as a human player in the tactical hex by hex moves made). In addition to the strategic level, even when on defense, the computer will look for chances to counterattack or when in a low level offensive posture, it will look for good attacks to make. So it will do some attacking, but nothing like what it can do when given some advantages. Anyone that's played hex based wargames knows immediately that a computer AI cannot compare to a human player in terms of tactics, and cannot grasp the strategic situation as well either (in terms of shifting forces between areas, etc.). So the only way to get it to put up a challenge against someone with experience with this kind of game (which is the bulk of our audience) will need to turn up the difficulty level as soon as they have a basic grasp of the rules. The difference between 110%/100% help is very noticeable, and full Challenging help is a big jump up for the AI. Of course, very experienced players need to go to Hard level. It can also depend on the scenario, but that's why we give players the ability to adjust the various difficulty levels in any manner they wish.

gamer78 -> RE: Extremely Cautious German AI? (3/5/2012 11:22:49 PM)
From my limited experience AI is very good in WIE. But generally in most computer games (that have better AI) AI can attack efficiently when scenario well designed and odds favorable for attacking. But what it can not do is to strategically retreat and concentrate&attack again. Maybe it can be done by good scripts though it will be time consuming with big map but can be predictable still by human player. I wish there was an universal "adaptive AI engine" [8D]

Redmarkus5 -> RE: Extremely Cautious German AI? (3/6/2012 9:07:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jimh009 From the very first turn the AI struggled mightily, managing to get three of the panzer groups surrounded after the Soviet turn 1. Worse, the AI essentially went into hibernation after the Panzer group broke out. While I did have multiple, fairly strong defensive lines stacked behind each other in the northern half - making a true breakout tough if not impossible - what really puzzled me was the complete lack of any attacks by the stacks of Germans that were on the line against the Soviets. It was common to have the Germans with stacks of 50+ CV facing a lowly Soviet tank brigade or other unit with 3CV and 2 fortifications behind a river. The German AI just sat there and basically did nothing. As the turns went on, I became more and more puzzled why the AI refused to attack. To top it all off, on the German AI's 9th turn (and with the game hopelessly out of reach for the Germans), the AI imitated a kamikaze and swung two of it's panzer divisions way down South through a weak spot in my line south of Vinnista. The AI raced these panzers until they literally ran out of gas - one of which was 10+ hexes away from the front line and completely isolated. The result was that on the last Soviet turn, both Panzer units (9th and 14th PZ divisions) were surrounded by a hoarde of lowly Soviet infantry units and destroyed! To give you an idea how bad the AI did in this Kiev scenario, the Soviets ended up with a decisive victory, only giving up two towns - Vinnista (which didn't even fall until the 9th turn) and Kotovsk. Anyways, I bring this all up to ask a question - is the AI really this bad in this game? Or are the problems the AI is experiencing related somehow to these short scenarios? Or is the AI somehow "choking" when it faces a thick defensive line where true panzer breakouts are difficult to come by? Your new car won't go on Normal, Sir? Try setting it to 110% - then it'll take you down the road like a rocket! Why didn't I set it on 110% for you when you bought it? Well Sir, that would just have been too easy now, wouldn't it! Another example of a new player finding that on 'Normal' the AI simply doesn't deliver. Why oh why people keep insisting that 'Normal' should be the same as 'the AI doesn't work in this game' I will never understand. Massive AI stacks refusing to attack weak enemy stacks is a recurring problem that ruins the game experience, IMHO. Just code the thing to attack whenever the odds are greater than 3:1... Then code it not to advance beyond ZOC reach of the follow-on forces. The devs need to address this properly before they spend a single minute working on WitW. Rebuild from scratch and launch WitE 2 first. That's the killer game for this market/scale and if you don't get it right, nothing else in the series will prosper.

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