RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (Full Version)

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crsutton -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/18/2012 11:40:27 PM)

Cheat or exploit? Does not really matter? This is a sick puppy here. He has problems that go beyond the scope of this forum. We all have our slick tricks but there has to be a point where you put on the stops. I feel sorry for him in a way because it is obvious from his post that he really has no comprehension of doing anything wrong. So be it. I suspect that there are many aspects of his life that are not aligned with the planets.



Smeulders -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/18/2012 11:48:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson


quote:

ORIGINAL: sdhundt

**warning

if you are interessed i could tell you that **** is cheating. i have prove of it!!!!
he is increasing pilot exp an troop xp and if he need
he change TOE
it seems like he is hacking the savefiles like he need it**


This was sent to me on a different forum...I deleted the accused players name.....Could this be done by a very tech. smart player ? Just a word regarding the game against the accused player.......My pilot exp. is rising alarmingly slow and his pilots eat ALL my guys for breakfast but since I have nothing to compare it with I thought it wasn't a problem.....But recently I have started a game as the Japs.....SCN#2, just like the other game.....In that game my Jap. pilots don't come anywhere close to the domination that the first game has as the Jps.......I know this is almost imposable to figure out if cheating is going on....I am going to give the benefit of the doubt to my opponent....He is a VERY good player and I wouldn't find the game any fun if you had to change the Pilot exp. and other things just to win. Any comments would be of great interest to me, Thanks.



When it comes to security - there are no absolutes. So we cannot say the game is 100% crack proof. However, compared to WITP stock ... the WITP/AE security system is almost infinitely better.

Since part of a security system's ability to function is based on how it works being a secret - I will not further describe how WITP/AE security works. But I can say that I do not think any of us who worked on the project could successfully edit the save file in a meaningful way and we KNOW how the security works. Yes, you can see data in there ... but it is scrambled in multiple dimensions ...

General advice is ... if you don't trust your opponent ... don't play the game with them ... and this is true for any game .. poker ... monopoly ... chess ... Axis and Allies ... even little ole WITP/AE.

If you must play against people you don't know ... play a few shorter scenarios first to primarily make sure your playing styles and communication styles are compatible ... as well as trying to develop a mutual sense of trust ... BEFORE you dive in to a >1 year campaign game ...

... security is like a wall .... we can make it has high as our stake holders want us to make us ... but we cannot really make it infinitely high ... we made the WITP/AE wall much, much, much higher than the WITP stock wall ... but it is not infinitely high ...




I don't think anyone will be pointing fingers at the devs over this. Everyone here should be smart enough to understand that what you say is true, there is no way to make a fool proof protection. Many of us even post about our games openly, giving away various degrees of information that we know our opponents could read if they wanted to. I've heard about players exchanging passwords because sometimes one forgets to hit "end turn" on his save ... The save system certainly isn't the weakest link for many people here.

Actually we should be surprised about the limited number of cheaters we hear about. Either they're good at hiding it or we're a pretty lucky bunch.



jetjockey -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/18/2012 11:52:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witp1951

My opponent just emailed me claiming he has not cheated but made use of the game engine. He has withdrawn from our game.

Edited: I have most of the save files if anyone at Matrix is interested they can PM me.


If your former opponent had been legitimately exploiting the game engine, I am certain he would just love to share with us his wisdom and superior insight. How else can he expect to clear his good name. Otherwise, I would believe that it will be difficult to find another opponent…



witp1951 -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/19/2012 12:02:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jetjockey
If your former opponent had been legitimately exploiting the game engine, I am certain he would just love to share with us his wisdom and superior insight. How else can he expect to clear his good name. Otherwise, I would believe that it will be difficult to find another opponent…


I responded to him with that same request. Have not heard back.

Hell, this is just a game!



nate25 -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/19/2012 12:06:33 AM)

Kinda disconcerting for a newb trying to work up for PBEM.

I know a lot of you out there are IT types or very knowledgeable about computers. I'm what I'd call "illiterate".

Is there anything besides trusting your opp that can be done? Sort of a "trust but verify" thing?

Nate



dorjun driver -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/19/2012 12:15:20 AM)

Apparently not. More's the pity.



witpqs -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/19/2012 12:26:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nate25

Kinda disconcerting for a newb trying to work up for PBEM.

I know a lot of you out there are IT types or very knowledgeable about computers. I'm what I'd call "illiterate".

Is there anything besides trusting your opp that can be done? Sort of a "trust but verify" thing?

Nate


I have the impression that, if he did break the save file open, it was a really big deal to do so. Sort of like banks do get robbed, but they are still in business and people still keep money there. I'm not worried about it.

The plain fact is that you must have a good opponent who has integrity or else your game is going to stink regardless of whether it is possible to get into the save file or not. And if it were easy then the information about how would be here on the forum already so that everybody would be forewarned. Don't worry about this potential hack, spend the mental energy on developing relationships with good opponents.



crsutton -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/19/2012 12:28:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: nate25

Kinda disconcerting for a newb trying to work up for PBEM.

I know a lot of you out there are IT types or very knowledgeable about computers. I'm what I'd call "illiterate".

Is there anything besides trusting your opp that can be done? Sort of a "trust but verify" thing?

Nate



I have been gaming for 40 years. Trust and respect have always been the key. This is not new. Don't worry. This is a pretty good crowd and you are at very little risk here.



nate25 -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/19/2012 12:41:46 AM)

I agree, "trust is a must".

I supervise for a living and you can become just a tad shaded towards people if you let yourself. Then when I read this I thought, "Here, too?"

But, it's one individual (alledgedly). I've got nothing but help in reply to my questions on this forum so my overall impression won't change.

Nate



Historiker -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/19/2012 1:02:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jetjockey


quote:

ORIGINAL: witp1951

My opponent just emailed me claiming he has not cheated but made use of the game engine. He has withdrawn from our game.

Edited: I have most of the save files if anyone at Matrix is interested they can PM me.


If your former opponent had been legitimately exploiting the game engine, I am certain he would just love to share with us his wisdom and superior insight. How else can he expect to clear his good name. Otherwise, I would believe that it will be difficult to find another opponent…

Quite a good bugfinder, this guy ;-)
- Supplies in masses where they shouldn't be
- Training units withing days to 99-99 - but only those units needed, not everyone
- 90XP Pilots for everyone

To find one loophole is difficult enough, but several? [:D]



BTW: He wipped my arse once as well, but was propably able to do so without any "loopholes" because it was my first pbem.



n01487477 -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/19/2012 1:24:56 AM)

This seems to go beyond a bug in the editor or loophole in the code. This seems to be a manipulation of the savefile through (actually - I shouldn't say)...

As someone who has worked in IT & helped code Tracker & Tracker AE - I can only reiterate JWilkerson. AE is much more protected than witp, but no system is impregnable.

So, it isn't impossible, but I would imagine very very rare for players here to be doing this. I trust my fellow players here and will continue to do so. Don't look for "cheats under the bed" in every bad result and good play by him/her.




sdhundt -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/19/2012 1:38:08 AM)

I learned a HUGE lesson by playing ROY....If the results seem WAY OFF then I know in the future to dig into it a little more....Sad to say I wasted 15 months by playing him....On the positive side, even while getting my ass kicked I stayed and played. Now off to restart a new game, UGH, but to restart after this long, UGH...Oh well maybe I'll take a break....TO ALL OF you players, all over the world, thanks to all of you for taking time to help me out with this very ugly topic...I didn't expect this much support, again, Thanks.

Steven



Mac Linehan -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/19/2012 1:40:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nate25

Kinda disconcerting for a newb trying to work up for PBEM.

I know a lot of you out there are IT types or very knowledgeable about computers. I'm what I'd call "illiterate".

Is there anything besides trusting your opp that can be done? Sort of a "trust but verify" thing?

Nate


Nate -

It has been my privilege to associate with the AE and WitP forums since 2004. While there has been, on occasion, (sometimes heated!) disagreements by forum members on what is or is not "gamey", this alleged instance is the first time I have heard of anyone opening and editing a save game file.

My three (very short lengthed - time constraints) pbem games involved Men who were honorable, trustworthy and (above all!) patient with this newbie. In each case I sent my password to my opponent. Either a man measures up, or, as in golf, you never play him again.

And - as we can see first hand, it doesn't take long for the word to get around.

You are surrounded by very experienced gamers, who will usually give (polite) warning if you intend to start a pbem with a individual of questionable integrity. This is a very rare occurrence.

Please choose to be unaffected by this current controversy. We are glad that you have have chosen to join an exceptional group of Men (and Lady).

Mac



Judith57 -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/19/2012 2:29:55 AM)

I must say this player seem to have achieved a training level far beyond anything else I have ever seen. Strange[image]http://www.infoocean.info/avatar2.jpg[/image]



Cap Mandrake -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/19/2012 2:31:13 AM)

Does anyone know how much he charges for this?



FDRLincoln -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/19/2012 2:55:23 AM)

I have to wonder what kind of person gets emotional or intellectual satisfaction by rigging the game, which is pretty much what this amounts to.




sanch -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/19/2012 3:22:24 AM)

Actually, it isn't all that hard to reverse-engineer a data file format, having done so several times. As long as the data isn't encrypted, it is almost guaranteed that there will be patterns to the data. Once you begin to crack the patterns, it's downhill from there.

On the surface, it sounds to me like that is what this guy did. And once he figured the file format, then poking bytes to bump experience or whatever becomes almost trivial.

The caveat being, of course, what kind of protections the AE team put onto the files, such as checksums, byte encoding, or whatever. But, OTOH, that, too, is part of reverse-engineering.



Dan Nichols -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/19/2012 3:23:49 AM)

Save files are encrypted.



USSAmerica -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/19/2012 4:34:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Does anyone know how much he charges for this?


[:D]



USSAmerica -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/19/2012 4:37:17 AM)

Sorry to hear that a few of you have lost games over this sad person. Perhaps you could start up a game against each other? [:)]

This is a class group of players that love this game, with very, very, very few sad exceptions. Keep the faith in your fellow players, and thank you for pointing out an exception to the rule for all of us. [:)]



witpqs -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/19/2012 5:12:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sdhundt

I learned a HUGE lesson by playing ROY....If the results seem WAY OFF then I know in the future to dig into it a little more....Sad to say I wasted 15 months by playing him....On the positive side, even while getting my ass kicked I stayed and played. Now off to restart a new game, UGH, but to restart after this long, UGH...Oh well maybe I'll take a break....TO ALL OF you players, all over the world, thanks to all of you for taking time to help me out with this very ugly topic...I didn't expect this much support, again, Thanks.

Steven



There's a silver lining to every dark cloud...

Now you can start a PBM using DaBabes, extended map, optional stacking limits. I recommend Scenario 28-C, the one with the reduced cargo capacities as that pushes the constraints a little more toward reality. And no matter which version you choose DaBabes has a phenomenol number of fixes, refinements, and improvements.

Get even by living well! [:D]



Torplexed -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/19/2012 6:23:41 AM)

He's cheating while playing as the Allies? What? All the material and technological advantages that accumulate over time aren't already enough?



LoBaron -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/19/2012 7:45:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: nate25

I agree, "trust is a must".

I supervise for a living and you can become just a tad shaded towards people if you let yourself. Then when I read this I thought, "Here, too?"

But, it's one individual (alledgedly). I've got nothing but help in reply to my questions on this forum so my overall impression won't change.

Nate




It is a single individual, to estimate the ammount of trust people put into each other you only need to go to the AAR section.
While this is off as a single event I very much doubt comparable things happen on a regular basis. No worries. [;)]



JeffroK -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/19/2012 8:06:25 AM)

I thought that if a database was changed you got a warning and had to agree?

Of course he could have timed his fix to come in with a Patch or similar to camoflague this.

From memory, someone brought up this possibility in early AE days and was jumped upon.



Smeulders -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/19/2012 8:25:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Does anyone know how much he charges for this?


[:D]


I've heard it whispered he always wanted a golf course resort, you don't happen to have one of those lying around ?



Smeulders -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/19/2012 8:26:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I thought that if a database was changed you got a warning and had to agree?

Of course he could have timed his fix to come in with a Patch or similar to camoflague this.

From memory, someone brought up this possibility in early AE days and was jumped upon.


It doesn't look like a database change, but rather changes to morale, experience and number of devices in a unit, the sort of thing that changes every turn in the game.



CaptBeefheart -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/19/2012 9:29:37 AM)

Cap Mandrake: [:D]

Actually, this is quite disturbing behavior. 99XP Chinese units? 90XP pilots with 1-3 missions under their belts? Not in this lifetime.

Cheers,
CC



Empire101 -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/19/2012 10:58:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf


only an idiot would cheat at a game where there is no money involved [:)]

.. and even then.. don't recommend it



Words of wisdom right here.


Indeed they are, but we must all remember there are people out there who will go to ANY lengths to get one over their opponent ( or should I say victim ).

quote:

ORIGINAL:jwilkerson

General advice is ... if you don't trust your opponent ... don't play the game with them



More words of wisdom



David The Great -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/19/2012 11:05:32 AM)

Could his member name be made public, so people do not waste time starting up a game with this person.

Thx

David



michaelm75au -> RE: I was sent this WARNING..... (3/19/2012 11:30:42 AM)

quote:

..but made use of the game engine.


If there is indeed an exploit within the game that can manipulate the mentioned data, and it can be identified, I can try to fix it. But I can't if I don't know there is one.



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