The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (Full Version)

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Tarhunnas -> The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/1/2012 1:13:39 PM)

This is an AAR of a GC with BigAnorak as the evil Fascist invaders, and me playing the valiant defenders of the Motherland. I will not have time to do a full AAR, but I will provide glimpses of the big picture every 3 or 4 turns. We are playing GC with the alternate victory conditions.

The map below is after Soviet moves on turn 4. It appears the Germans have concentrated most of their mobile units north of the marshes. There are panzers up norh near Pskov, another concentration west of Velikie Luki, and some on the Dnepr south of the landbridge. Note also the apparent SS-corps near Vitebsk.

In the south, there is only a relatively weak Panzer Group just west of Vinnitsa.

I have just pulled back the forces west of Kiev a couple of hexes, as their southern flank was feeling menaced, but otherwise the south seem to be holding fine.

In the center, the Dnepr is holding, and there is surprisingly little pressure in the area west of Smolensk. A brave cavalry division from 3d army in the swamps has just launched a daring raid that displaced some German airfields.

I have a feeling the enemy is making their greatest effort in the area north of Vitebsk, and that area has thus been prioritized for reserves. I have built up a substantial position in depth around Pskov. It is slowly crumbling, but doing its job. If I can, I will try to hold Leningrad.

On the evacuation side, I have railed out a large part of the industry in Leningrad, as well as some smaller lots of armaments in Kiev, Mogilev and Odessa.

[image]local://upfiles/37384/B8B147A417234B90923816F1BB8230F5.jpg[/image]



bigbaba -> RE: The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/1/2012 2:05:15 PM)

oh another good Tarhunnas AAR[sm=00000613.gif].

and it looks very good for you so far. just look at his panzers. they are not concetrated and are speard throughout the entire front.

ths AAR is booked also because its a totaly different defense strategy then in my AAR as russian player.




HITMAN202 -> RE: The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/1/2012 5:06:51 PM)

Can the Soviets fight so far forward and survive ??? Particularly in the south ??? Your're right, the German armour is spread out , too close to the front tied up in enemy ZOC's and the infantry seems to be out of postion to open up gaps in the Soviet line for the armour/mech units to penetrate. In fact, the Germans seem to be advancing on too broad of a front. I think they need to be more concentrated to make small pockets. A noobie's opinion..



Ron -> RE: The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/1/2012 5:22:17 PM)

I agree, the Soviet fighting forward like this is not the norm or optimum nowadays at all, though the German force structure is presently too spread out to take advantage of it. I wonder if Tarhunnas and BigAnorak have agreed to showcase here a 'type' of game instead of what the WitE engine currently allows? Regardless, it is definitely a different approach.



Tarhunnas -> RE: The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/1/2012 5:46:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron

I agree, the Soviet fighting forward like this is not the norm or optimum nowadays at all, though the German force structure is presently too spread out to take advantage of it. I wonder if Tarhunnas and BigAnorak have agreed to showcase here a 'type' of game instead of what the WitE engine currently allows? Regardless, it is definitely a different approach.



Nope, no showcase. I fight forward whenever I can. I am not the running away type of Soviet player.

We did agree on some house rules, no muling, no Soviet landings west of Crimea unless Sevastopol is Soviet held, no airbase attack spamming. BigAnorak suggested no Lvov pocket and no early buildups, but I said he could do them if he wanted to. In the event he did a medium size pocket around Lvov, but not the big one.



Klydon -> RE: The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/1/2012 6:19:02 PM)

Excellent to see this AAR.



Saper2229 -> RE: The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/1/2012 7:06:58 PM)

Why home rules? I win many game Germany ore Soviet without HR - WiTE have best balance, necessarily only good play!



Tarhunnas -> RE: The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/2/2012 5:17:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Saper222

Why home rules? I win many game Germany ore Soviet without HR - WiTE have best balance, necessarily only good play!


Some things, like muling or airfield attack spamming, feels unrealistic and was apparently not intended to work that way by the designers. Other things like suicide Soviet air drops to break rail lines are also unrealistic.



Tarhunnas -> RE: The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/2/2012 5:21:20 AM)

This is the situation at the start of Soviet turn 6. Panzer thrusts are indicated by red arrows. None of them feel really threatening. I have a hunch the enemy will be making an effort towards Moscow, so with the factories of Leningrad now empty echoing shells with the machinery gone to Siberia, I will shift the evacuation effort to Tula, Moscow, Bryansk etc.

[image]local://upfiles/37384/65C8CD9C92014EFD929A081415C0567D.jpg[/image]



Tarhunnas -> RE: The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/2/2012 6:57:52 AM)

In the South, the Germans have put Rumanians and Hungarians on the flanks of the panzer thrust. That invites a counterattack! It almost, but not quite, succeeds in cutting off the panzers. I suspect I overreached myself there and will have to pay for it, but it was worth it. And it was fun!

[image]local://upfiles/37384/70925295089F46468EDBBD5710A6081D.jpg[/image]



Saper2229 -> RE: The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/2/2012 8:38:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Some things, like muling or airfield attack spamming, feels unrealistic and was apparently not intended to work that way by the designers. Other things like suicide Soviet air drops to break rail lines are also unrealistic.

The Soviet air drops was activ used in 12/41-04/42 historical. His main target was help partizan break rail lines and attempt break supply road.
If the Germany player is expirience - the Soviet air attack was suicide. But German attack Soviet IAD airbase - this is good tactic.



Tarhunnas -> RE: The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/2/2012 9:39:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Saper222


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Some things, like muling or airfield attack spamming, feels unrealistic and was apparently not intended to work that way by the designers. Other things like suicide Soviet air drops to break rail lines are also unrealistic.

The Soviet air drops was activ used in 12/41-04/42 historical. His main target was help partizan break rail lines and attempt break supply road.
If the Germany player is expirience - the Soviet air attack was suicide. But German attack Soviet IAD airbase - this is good tactic.


Soviet airdrops to break supply lines are certainly historical, but they were done close to the front. In the game, it is possible to drop an airborne brigade 20 hexes behind the front to cut one of the few rail arteries the Germans depend on, and it has an effect in the game out of proportion.



Flaviusx -> RE: The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/2/2012 12:08:36 PM)

This is something not well understood, but a forward defense in the south is completely viable and excellent provided you don't have a strong Lvov opener. It's the Lvov opener that kills the south and forces the runaway.

SW Front is quite strong enough to fight it out down there otherwise.

Unfortunately everybody is convinced that they need to do a Lvov opener to prevent a runaway. This is exactly wrong.




Ron -> RE: The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/2/2012 4:52:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

This is something not well understood, but a forward defense in the south is completely viable and excellent provided you don't have a strong Lvov opener. It's the Lvov opener that kills the south and forces the runaway.

SW Front is quite strong enough to fight it out down there otherwise.

Unfortunately everybody is convinced that they need to do a Lvov opener to prevent a runaway. This is exactly wrong.





No, you are purposely misleading with your agenda. There is no inherent reason for the Soviet to fight with a forward defense like this period. He can accomplish the same, or more, with a screen and carpet of ants while retreating and delaying, knowing full well the South will be a logistic dead zone for the German by Mud if he extends too far. Industry can still be easily evacuated, the cities given up are meaningless and he will save the bulk of the Russian Army for the Blizzard.

The ultimate reason every German player is opting for the Lvov opening is to try and get the Russian Army down to something somewhat manageable before Blizzard. He knows if he doesn't the Russian will be monstrous and he will be crushed. If you can grok that at some point, your posts may have some semblance of balance.



Flaviusx -> RE: The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/2/2012 5:10:30 PM)

Why give up the terrain if you can make a fight of it? Given an old school opening (i.e., AGS unreinforced) I always contest the western Ukraine.

And that's exactly what Tarhunnas is doing here.

Running away is what you do when you haven't got an army to fight with.






Ron -> RE: The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/3/2012 5:24:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Why give up the terrain if you can make a fight of it? Given an old school opening (i.e., AGS unreinforced) I always contest the western Ukraine.

And that's exactly what Tarhunnas is doing here.

Running away is what you do when you haven't got an army to fight with.




No, 'running away' is a misnomer. You are preserving the bulk of your army for the blizzard and sacrificing space and minimal units in delaying actions to get to that point. It is possible because there are no consequences for the Russian player for giving up terrain. It is possible because 900 men ants will not rout and can hold up an entire Panzer Corps repeatedly. It's possible because the Russian knows his Army can be optimized and can grow huge with teeth for the Blizzard. Of course, you know all this already...

If you are so against the Lvov opening and want a fixed story then edit the first turns out in the editor or better yet start the '42 campaign.



Michael T -> RE: The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/3/2012 9:19:50 PM)

quote:

No, 'running away' is a misnomer. You are preserving the bulk of your army for the blizzard and sacrificing space and minimal units in delaying actions to get to that point. It is possible because there are no consequences for the Russian player for giving up terrain. It is possible because 900 men ants will not rout and can hold up an entire Panzer Corps repeatedly. It's possible because the Russian knows his Army can be optimized and can grow huge with teeth for the Blizzard. Of course, you know all this already


+1

And of course you may as well do this even if the Lvov does not occur. Withdraw East and come back with said steamroller, boosted with the Lvov units. The said runaway or withdrawal is, under the current rule set, the best option regardless of what Germany does.



Schmart -> RE: The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/3/2012 9:38:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron
There is no inherent reason for the Soviet to fight with a forward defense like this period.


Actually, there's one very good reason: The Russian player may not wish to play a fantasy strategy, and believes in a certain degree of sportsmanship, and it appears that both these players want to play a sporting game, and not simply game the system for the sake of winning. There are still some wargamers out there that enjoy some history with a game, and don't use all the gimicky tactics that the (inevitably imperfect) game system may allow them...



Michael T -> RE: The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/3/2012 10:45:43 PM)


So we are all supposed to figure out what is sporting and what is not? Gimme a break. This is pure fantasy. This is why we have rules. They are the final arbitrator, not someones subjective view on what should or should not be allowed. A house rule is fine but I certainly don't want to be playing a game and thinking everytime I move a unit, gee is this sporting or not.

If these two guys have an understanding then great, but for the wider gaming community 'sportsmanship' won't fix the all the issues. Why? Because everyone will draw a different line on what they think is sporting and what is not. End result will be a dispute at some point. Rules treat everyone the same.



Schmart -> RE: The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/4/2012 5:24:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T


So we are all supposed to figure out what is sporting and what is not? Gimme a break.


It's called history, or at the very worst, historical plausibility.

quote:

This is pure fantasy. This is why we have rules. They are the final arbitrator, not someones subjective view on what should or should not be allowed.


No, what's pure fantasy is HQ build-ups, muling, carpet defense, checkerboard, run for the hills, fake Soviet OOB, paradroping Airborne Brigades 200km behind German lines to disrupt supply for an entire Army Group, etc...

Just because something is a rule, doesn't mean it's realistic or relevant or correct. Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's moral. Just because there's a regulation doesn't mean it's safe. Etc...

quote:

A house rule is fine but I certainly don't want to be playing a game and thinking everytime I move a unit, gee is this sporting or not.


People play wargames for different reasons. I play mostly for the enjoyment and immersion in history. Others play mostly for the competition, and will do anything the rules allow in order to win. I compete hard, but I still believe in a certain degree of sportsmanship in anything I do.



Flaviusx -> RE: The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/4/2012 5:41:32 PM)

Two guys want to play a historical wargame, go figure.



Tarhunnas -> RE: The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/8/2012 8:13:05 PM)

Turn 7. The north before Soviet moves. The attack continues towards Leningrad, but no encirclements. If the Germans want to bludgeon their way into the city, I am happy with that.

[image]local://upfiles/37384/DA26797BE3234A1F90F4CF1E0608A96E.jpg[/image]



Tarhunnas -> RE: The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/8/2012 8:14:24 PM)

In the center about a dozen divisions are encircled at Smolensk, and no way to break the encirclement. Map before Soviet moves.

It appears that the majority of AGC armor plus some from AGS are now concentrated in the Smolensk area.

[image]local://upfiles/37384/A042E89F40204E2F8350A6256B2954F7.jpg[/image]



Tarhunnas -> RE: The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/8/2012 8:16:43 PM)

And the south. The Germans have hit back at our encircling forces as expected, and surrounded large parts of two armies. However, a valiant counterattack manages to get a corridor open to the encircled forces. This map is after Soviet moves.

[image]local://upfiles/37384/022BE96CEA09440289DF311D73F78E1C.jpg[/image]



Tarhunnas -> RE: The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/9/2012 9:05:28 PM)

Turn 8. Overview at the start of the Soviet turn. As the Soviets in 1941 you are always a bit apprehensive as you open the turn, fearing it might be one of those "Oh sh*t!" turns where you find half your army surrounded. Well, not so bad this turn. The surrounded guys west of Kiev are now firmly in the clutches of the enemy. I actually had a fair chance on an attack to free them, but it failed. Otherwise just some pressing forward by the Germans. There is an obvious Panzer concentration in the center, I guess he will go straight for Moscow, so evacuations are now concentrating on getting the stuff in Moscow out. I know from experience it takes about 5 turns to empty Moscow...

[image]local://upfiles/37384/D4E1848A0D784D0799B511B17D9A19B4.jpg[/image]



Tarhunnas -> RE: The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/9/2012 9:14:38 PM)

At the Leningrad front, the Insolent Fascist army has established a bridgehead across the Luga, but the valiant defenders of the cradle of the revolution throw themselves against the enemy in a heroic counterattack and push them back across the river!

[image]local://upfiles/37384/E38F1BC24A6A4DA49579397262F199A5.jpg[/image]



Tarhunnas -> RE: The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/9/2012 9:26:46 PM)

Losses Turn 8 (halfway through the Soviet turn, I forgot to make a save at the end).

Edit: It seems to me when I do some comparisons that Soviet losses are a little on the high side, but so are those of the Axis, especially in tanks and artillery.

[image]local://upfiles/37384/FD7F74395B66478790D1CE5BBC8BAA2B.jpg[/image]



Tarhunnas -> RE: The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/9/2012 9:35:59 PM)

And OOB turn 8.

[image]local://upfiles/37384/1D33EE3D2CDD4E519D83348D12301F31.jpg[/image]



Klydon -> RE: The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/9/2012 10:18:27 PM)

Heh.. Axis are down to just over 1k operational tanks.

Interesting.



randallw -> RE: The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please) (5/10/2012 8:55:59 AM)

It does look very bad, but the Germans can still keep pushing.



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