RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (Full Version)

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witpqs -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (9/27/2012 7:32:37 PM)

IMO there is no way that you will get enough supply through the jungle to all of open the road, supply a defense of the road, supply a clearing of the road into China, and supply China. If you take and build up fully the coastal bases (Akyab, Ramree Island) and capture Prome on up to establish the shortest supply link possible, then you will get some supply into China.

The Burma Road proper is open by having Rangoon and a (IIRC)road/rail link kall the way to Tuyun. Then 500 supply per day just appear at Chungking as 'Daily Supply'. That's a big deal when you manage to do it.

Going straight in to 'free' the Chinese is the least likely to succeed and, if it succeeds, will provide the least benefit. On the other hand, if you do take Rangoon then as mentioned the Imperial defense of middle and upper Burma becomes difficult to impossible. Yes, many of those units might simply plug up access to China, but can you really stop that? Even if you come straight across the jungle for the road into China, they can do the same thing before you get there, yes?



BBfanboy -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (9/27/2012 10:07:02 PM)

What witpqs says makes good sense [and he has waaaay more experience than I do].
I officially vote against my initial suggestion! [sm=innocent0009.gif]



SBD -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (9/28/2012 5:59:06 AM)

Ya, you're being way too optimistic about getting supplies into China. An advance towards Lashio, while obviously useful, might actually cause a short term decrease in supplies to China, as you divert C-47s from "flying the hump" to flying supplies to your troops in the Burmese jungle.

To succeed you're going to have to pretty much clear out all of Burma, secure Rangoon, & clear out the road from Lashio into China (Paoshan etc.) Very worthwhile to get the Chinese back into the game but quite a big project.



JocMeister -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (9/28/2012 6:07:01 AM)

Yes was witpqs says does make excellent sense! Thank you! [:)]

Rangoon it is then. The next question will be how? I think taking Ramree Island is a must. I may even be able to ship in some supply there once its under Allied control. I have some 300 expendable xAKs I can use. And after that Prome and Rangoon.

The question is if I should divide my forces and send some down the "option two" route (Shwebo-Rangoon) too. Erik has some massive forces at Katha and Shwebo. I think I need to try and lock them there or he will just rail everything down to Prome/Rangoon. The good news is that Erik must be aware of the danger from the Chinese army. So he have to remain very strong in eastern/northern Burma. Sending perhaps just 2000-3000 AV to threaten Katha/Shwebo will perhaps prevent him giving too much aid to Rangoon?

I will bring in total:
2 OZ divisions
2 Brit
4 US divisions
1 East African
2 (the 800 squad ones) Chinese and one small.
4 Indian (possible 5 depending on PPs) upgraded divisions.
3 divisions worth of Bdes.
3 Armored bdes.

Somewhere close to 20 divisions in total. Around 9-10K worth of AV. I also have another 2 unrestricted US divisions arriving shortly that may go to India. Still undecided. Is this doable or am I doing something stupid again? [:D]

What are the chances of successfully retaking Burma at this stage? I have just taken for granted that this would be successful but perhaps Iīm being too confident? I donīt know much of the Japanese OOB. What can I expect in terms of opposition? I have about 5 confirmed Jap division in the area. Recon indicates somewhere closed to 400.000 men in Burma.



JocMeister -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (9/28/2012 6:14:08 AM)

Hi SBD and welcome! [:)]

Thank you for you input. I certainly agree with you. I scrapped the idea of trying to connect with the Chinese after reading what witpqs wrote and sleeping over it.



JocMeister -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (9/29/2012 9:14:32 PM)

June 13th 1943

And all of the sudden this pops up! I wonder what he is up too? I think he is itching to try and get within range of Koumac and plaster my AF there with 300 4Es sitting on the ground.

If the number of AC reported are accurate he is no threat to any base in the region though. All bases have some 100 Fighters with strike AC on Efafe and on Luganville. Also have about 100 Mitchells trained in naval bombing at Koumac.

I think he is just testing my airsearch or he want me to see them for whatever reason....Will find out in the morning!

[image]local://upfiles/32406/B8559449D6704BDEAAA79CDB20310928.jpg[/image]



ny59giants -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (9/29/2012 10:23:24 PM)

When it comes to Burma, you need to look at it from a logistical point of view. What can you do and support logistically?? What can you do to make the Japanese player's life difficult from a logistical point?? Supplies are the key and then getting your troops into the central plain to push him or force him south.



JocMeister -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (9/30/2012 10:22:38 AM)

Micheal, Thats what Iīm not sure about. I know I can sustain operations around Katha without supply problems. Question is if I can do that same if I get a little deeper with 5-8k AV?
Iīm really starting to lean towards splitting my forces in two. One to lock down Katha and one to threaten Rangoon. Hopefully I can get supply via Ramree Island? If I can cut off Rangoon from the North of Burma his supply is going to get critical I think?

Is this doable and is it stupid to spit my forces? I donīt have a clue what kind of firepower he has in place. I know of 4 to 5 divisions and a Tank division. Iīll try loading the intel into intel monkey to see more exactly. Iīm just going by memory. The tank division is a paper tiger I think. He is used to fighting the chinese. Not forces with real AT capabilities. All Indian units are upgraded now as are the OZ and US. Brit divisions are waiting for more squads.

In the SOPAC things are still. His CVs remain in place. Very weird. Anyone have any ideas what he could be doing?





[image]local://upfiles/32406/70FDBCA156A14F59B9B0D85B57639638.jpg[/image]



ny59giants -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (9/30/2012 11:15:51 AM)

I don't think he has jumped ahead 13 months with the D4Y3 Judy. What probably happened is he is keeping a few of his 'accelerated' CVs airgroups intact. Its a lot easier to accelerate your CVs to get them in 43 and thus have the air groups that normally would be available in 8/44. Going from a Service Rating (SR) of 3 down to 1 is a good thing.



JocMeister -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (9/30/2012 11:38:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I don't think he has jumped ahead 13 months with the D4Y3 Judy. What probably happened is he is keeping a few of his 'accelerated' CVs airgroups intact. Its a lot easier to accelerate your CVs to get them in 43 and thus have the air groups that normally would be available in 8/44. Going from a Service Rating (SR) of 3 down to 1 is a good thing.


Ah, I hope that is it! But then again that would mean some of his carriers due in 44 are now online? [:(]



JocMeister -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (9/30/2012 11:41:50 AM)

Here is something for you to look at over the morning coffee Micheal! Feel free to let me know if Iīm an idiot! [:D]

But I actually think this might work. Only thing Iīm worried about is the firepower he has in Burma. Iīm guessing at around 4-5K AV but I really donīt have a clue! Iīm also counting on getting complete control of the skies but that is ofcourse not certain at all. What do you think?



[image]local://upfiles/32406/FEA216F57FD1417C886F6EC94EE124AC.jpg[/image]



ny59giants -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (9/30/2012 11:45:55 AM)

I had my last of 6 Unryus Class CVs arrive in early Nov '43. I only have the two Taiyo left to build. I have 14 heavy and 8 light CVs now. [:)]



JocMeister -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (10/1/2012 4:45:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I had my last of 6 Unryus Class CVs arrive in early Nov '43. I only have the two Taiyo left to build. I have 14 heavy and 8 light CVs now. [:)]


So basically he will have carrier supremacy into 45? [:(]

A quick (may be inaccurate) counting he will have 10-11 (3 sunk 1 mayby) heavy and 6-7 CVL/CVEs (2 sunk) around late 43?

By the end of 43 I will only have 4 CVs and 7 CVLs. Also about 15 CVEs. I wouldnīt want to face him with that outside my LBA. CVEs can be used for defensive purpose only I think. Just too slow.



JocMeister -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (10/2/2012 5:23:38 PM)

23rd of June -43

Erik sprang a little surprise on me today that will probably cost me two CAs and some irrelevant shipping. Didnīt see that one coming. Good thing he seem to think I care about NOPAC. Not so good if I loose two CAs. [:(]



[image]local://upfiles/32406/87521DAE2A7E42AE8684FE56B9A9BAC5.jpg[/image]



JocMeister -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (10/2/2012 6:35:29 PM)

24th and 25th of June -43

For once I chose right! [:)] Erik veered almost due east and too far away to hit any shipping. The CAs are disbanded at Kodiak now.

On the 26th he turned SW. Erik indicated in his email that he wasnīt expecting to end up within striking distance of Kodiak but he did and his strikes took off. For once his fondness of the 8 hex strike hit him back. Iīm very happy with the result as you can see in the screenshot! I lost a LST. I will do that trade any day. [:D]

In other news I do need some advice. Iīve pretty much run out of ideas everywhere except Burma... More on that in the next post.

Here are the losses for the day! [&o]

[image]local://upfiles/32406/9C314DDFB6D34F35A204317E02AA8F5D.jpg[/image]



JocMeister -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (10/2/2012 8:18:14 PM)

Advice needed!

Iīm trying to build some pressure just about anywhere to keep Erik from sending stuff to Burma. But after the successful attack on Torres Island I just grind to a halt. I`m trying to find some momentum again somewhere but I just can't seem to get moving. Lack of Carriers are really starting to feel right now.

I have a huge amount of troops but no way to get them into a fight. I have tried in Northern OZ via land but simply canīt stay in supply. I can only see two, perhaps three options for me. Problem is that wherever I look outside Burma I need to do a "big" jump over water. Without carriers that is a pretty major hurdle even when its just 8 hexes.

1. An atoll invasion in CENTPAC. Very very risky with only 2 CVs and 4 CVEs available for cover. Have forces prepped for Canton/Baker/Wake/Tarawa. I donīt fancy trying to pull off my first atoll invasion without being able to stay for more then 1-2 days at best.

2. Something around PM. 8 Range mean I can use Hellcats and P38s. I have 2 level 9 AFs and one level 8 in the area. I have 2 divisions prepped for PM and two for Milne Bay. Risk is surface assets getting boxed in against the coast when KB shows up.

3. Ndeni. This was the initial plan. But after bombing and sweeping it for 4 days Erik shows no sign of trying to contest the airspace. He has KB and Betties/Nells within range. An invasion here would certainly be VERY bloody for me in terms of shipping. 1 Div + 3 tank units are prepped.

I need to get in close somewhere. I have a huge army in SOPAC that sit and do nothing. I think I have some 8 divisions in the area. And thats not counting all the smaller units. I'm leaning towards trying something in the PM area. I also have about 2 divisions prepped for CENTPAC doing nothing. Its frustrating and I donīt want to do something reckless but I donīt think I can just sit back and wait for a year doing nothing. Whatever I do it will be a risk and Iīm prepared to take pretty big losses if it mean I can get a hold somewhere and then get moving again.

Any advice at all are very welcome. Iīm out of steam but desperately needs to get going again! [:(]



BBfanboy -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (10/2/2012 11:08:31 PM)

Betties/Nells have an Achilles heel - they have much longer range than their escorting fighters and without the fighters, they are dead meat against 1943 Allied fighters. I have had invasion TFs in range of Netties attacked by three raids of between 15 and 30 each - only one torp hit scored on an xAK while about 60 Netties became submarines. [:D] Escort carriers provided the CAP.
Do you have any place where you can invade outside his fighter range? You would also have to know where all the IJN CVs and CVLs are.



Dan Nichols -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (10/3/2012 3:57:50 AM)

Why are you not making a major commitment in Western OZ? There are 3 potential size 9 airfields north of Perth and all are on rail lines so supply should not be a problem. They are Geraldton, Cue, and Meekatharra. They are all 8 hexes from Carnarvon. You have a number of aircraft that can reach using drop tanks and normal range, P-38, P47, F4U, F6F. With 3 level 9 airfields within range you can send 300-500 2 and 4 engine bombers over Carnarvon and obliterate it. March forth and take it. Supply will move slower but you should be able to move small supply TFs to Carnarvon. Use it to sweep Exmouth and send the bombers in later. March across the desert to take it and then press on to Port Hedland and Corunna Downs. Moving supply will be a bit dangerous but using Torpedo carrying aircraft like the Beaufort VIII( 8 hex range with torpedo ), the TBF-1 with drop tanks( 9 hexes with torpedo ) can make it expensive for Erik to try to interdict. Plus having large airfields with good fighters on CAP will help. And do not forget the USAAF attack bombers. You should be getting some B-25Gs now. Train aircrews up on low naval attack and send them in, 6 x 500 lb GP bombs can hurt a CV and they have a normal range of 11.

In SoPac you should be able to move further also. I would build Torres Island plus take and build Vanua Lava. When they are built up enough to support a number of fighter squadrons, move 2 hexes north to Vanikoro, build it and then take Utupua. These can all be level 6 or 7 airfields. The idea is to provide yourself with LRCAP that only has to cover 2 or 3 hexes. LRCAP is more effective if it is operating at close range. Only then move and take Ndeni. I would take Reef Islands to provide a forward base to put search aircraft and a set of fighter TBF units to help protect the Santa Cruz Islands.

The next step in the SoPac is a hard one. You would need to take either Rennell Island or Kirakira. Both are a long step, but once you take one or both, you will be able to move slowly up the chain of the Solomon Islands.

I hope this helps you Jocke.



JocMeister -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (10/3/2012 4:57:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Betties/Nells have an Achilles heel - they have much longer range than their escorting fighters and without the fighters, they are dead meat against 1943 Allied fighters. I have had invasion TFs in range of Netties attacked by three raids of between 15 and 30 each - only one torp hit scored on an xAK while about 60 Netties became submarines. [:D] Escort carriers provided the CAP.
Do you have any place where you can invade outside his fighter range? You would also have to know where all the IJN CVs and CVLs are.


That sounds promising for the future. I have been able to nick one or two for him. They seem to last about 2 seconds vs. Fighters! [:)] I canīt imagine any place on the map that would be outside his Aircover. If it is he can probably move in fighters in a turn or two!


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan Nichols
....I hope this helps you Jocke.


It certainly does! Thank you for taking the time to help out. Glad you decided not to completely abandon the forum!
[:)]

I will continue to do small island hoppings in Caledonia as you suggest. I might as well as Iīm not doing anything else. Torres should be built up in about 2 weeks!

I have tried once before to move on Carnarvon. Problem is that he has almost 50.000 soldiers there. So I send 2 OZ divisions and an american one. But once I got past 4-5 hexes supply started being an issue. He sent BB in to bombard and that certainly didnīt help with supply.

But I will try again. This time I will add a lot more forces to the endeavour. I have closed the AFs before without too much of a problem so it can be done again. I will also send 50 P38s to the area backed up by 18 Hellcats.

I will also commit surface forces this time around. If I can close the AFs I donīt need to fear LBA and if he moves any Carrier forces thats only good news. A squadron of Cats will make sure he canīt jump me. 28 TBs will also move to Geraldtown.

I still havnīt abandoned the idea of doing a PM landing. I will move the forces into position but hold for now. If I had open ocean to hide in I would certainly go for it. But Iīm really afraid to get my APAs/AKAs boxed in against the coast and then sunk. I have seen the KB just slither through twice the CAP without hardly taken any losses two times now. So even with a 300 plane CAP to hide under in a port Iīm sure he could get to them.

Iīm going to start moving some expendable shipping around in the area just to get him used to stuff moving around.



JocMeister -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (10/8/2012 9:34:01 AM)

So the baby finally arrived and Iīm proud as a peacock of course! [:)] We got home from the hospital last night and I actually managed to return a turn for Erik this morning. Not a lot of clicks to do in this PBEM right now as its mostly a waiting game for the monsoon to end so I can do it in about 30 mins!

Donīt know if we will manage to keep up with the 3-4 turns per day we have done so far and I donīt know how much I will be able to update this AAR. I will try to of course and I decided to drop my other AAR in favour of this one. There is not a lot of AARs going past 42 so I hope this one will be more interesting to follow as I really go on the offensive for the first time! [:)]

Last turn was completely uneventful! July is approaching... P47 time! [:D]




ny59giants -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (10/8/2012 10:01:12 AM)

Congrads!! [:)]
You will use your PBEM games as a way to relax from the stressors of being a father.

As to where to launch a counterattack, the problem is not going to be getting ashore someplace as you can achieve tactical surprise. The question will be your ability to get any follow up forces and supplies into that theater. Like Dan N just posted, you will need to advance under cover of LBA, not relying too heavily on your navy. You have plenty of SeaBees (naval construction) units, use them! [;)]



GreyJoy -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (10/8/2012 10:36:28 AM)

[sm=character0272.gif][sm=character0272.gif][sm=character0272.gif][sm=happy0065.gif][sm=happy0065.gif][sm=happy0065.gif][sm=happy0065.gif]



JocMeister -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (10/9/2012 8:33:20 PM)

2nd of July


July 43! Finally, finally finally the reign of the Tojo is over!

Not much happening right now. Erik tried a sweep over Ledo that ended badly for him. I think he was enticed by only 50 fighters being stationed there. But I have been trying a trick of his own lately. I have noticed how he uses LRCAP over his bases in Burma. So I tried something similar and it worked well! I had almost 100 Fighters stationed at Imphal with CAP 50% and 50% Rest but range 3. So the participated over Ledo. Sweet! [:)]

Good results too! :)


[image]local://upfiles/32406/646723B7312248A1A8BB93F842150DDC.jpg[/image]



JocMeister -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (10/11/2012 9:28:04 AM)

7th of July -43

Not much has happened lately. Iīve landed at Horn island where CL Cleveland took a torp from a DD. She will probably be toast next turn as Erik seems to bring in the big guns seen in the screen below. Iīve decided to keep the small CL force I have at Portland roads there for protection. If he can get torps in so can I. All DDs are Fletchers. I also have about 50 PT boats that will move 2 hexes east and try and intercept his surface force if he goes for Portland Roads. I hope they might get a lucky shot in and force him to spend ammo and ops.

Iīve set 25 Corsair and 25 P38s to Sweep PM. I intend to take away his LRCAP and show him that this is now a US controlled body of water.

I have had almost 100 strike AC stationed and within range at Cooktown for long time now but they simply refuse to fly. Without explanation. Starting to piss me off pretty badly. Last time that happened I had a very good opportunity to get to his carriers with 50 DBs.

If the game at least offered some kind of explanation...

NOPAC His 3-4 carriers showed up and sank 6 AKLs and two old DDs. I might faint a invasion of Cold bay just to keep his CVs up there.

Western OZI closed Carnarvon and Exmouth with heavy losses on his side as I can sweep with P38s. Troops started moving North again. Lets see if he dares bring in his BBs without aircover. I have 28 TBs stationed at Geraldton. Hopefully the threat of subs and mines will be enough to deter him this time.

Burma

Things are slowly getting into place. Iīm about 10-15 days away from a major air assault here. I intend to try and break the back of his airforce in Burma. Iīm a lot stronger than last time. I changed the elite Hellcat group to Corsairs as I have seen what the Corsair is capable of. With a SR of 3 and shorter range it actually makes more sense to use them in Burma then in SOPAC.

Operation Carolean Prayer is slowly getting into order...

[image]local://upfiles/32406/D8B6DAAE773248E6AD743FF0C1DC5A9A.jpg[/image]



ny59giants -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (10/11/2012 11:18:04 AM)

quote:

I have had almost 100 strike AC stationed and within range at Cooktown for long time now but they simply refuse to fly. Without explanation. Starting to piss me off pretty badly. Last time that happened I had a very good opportunity to get to his carriers with 50 DBs.

If the game at least offered some kind of explanation...


If you have DB and TB there, make sure they have their fighter escorts set to the same altitude. I would have everybody at 12k with 10% Naval Search and actually use search arcs to cover where you would like them to go. [;)]

Lay some mines one hex east of Portland Road so he cannot get to your base there. You have the coral reef to the east to protect your shipping. I would look to head for Merauke next.

Another EDIT comment - Move one of your many Command HQs to Cooktown and then eventually up to Portland Roads. First to pull in extra supply (25k). Second, to start prepping for your next objective. Their Command range is 2x their range of 9. [X(]



JocMeister -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (10/13/2012 6:18:16 AM)

8th-13th of July -43

NOPAC
MKB disappears again. I will have to do something here that keeps his CVs in the area...

BURMA
Soon...

SOPAC
I allowed Erik to reopen Ndeni. He immediately moved in some 80 fighters. I will start sweeping again in a week or so. Closing Ndeni actually wasnīt that great as it meant I wasnīt able to sweep anywhere on map except at extended range. So now I have some 80 fighters to kill off! [:)]

KB is sailing around Ndeni doing nothing but burning fuel and giving away its location. He is not strong enough to dare an attack in the New Hebrides I think. Last couple of months have shown that the Zero has past its "best before date". Against Corsairs, Hellcats and P38s the Zeros suffer 10 to 1 losses if not higher.

Western OZ
Troops are moving North. I spotted a CV and some BBs on the 11th. Minefields are in place. This time I wonīt back down. 4Es are bombing Carnarvon without opposition.

Eastern OZ
Iīm starting to wonder if its possible for me to bypass SOPAC completely. If I could only make the jump to PM...I also managed to save the Cleaveland! For some reason Erik chose to bombard Cooktown instead. I lost 2 2Es on the ground. Perhaps he know about the CD guns at Portland Roads and decided he didnīt want to go up against the PTs. I will soon be able to fly CAP from Horn Island. Iīv started prepping units for Merauke but its going to take a while.

CENTPAC
I really want to open another front here somewhere. But it would be really, really dangerous as I only have 2 CVs, 2 CVLs and 4 CVEs available. Is it worth the risk? He will have really dug in deep by now.



JocMeister -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (10/13/2012 7:51:00 AM)

Hammer time!

And I donīt mean the dancing dude with the silly pants! [:D]

The 2nd Burmese Air War will commence shortly. During the 1st one I achieved only slightly better than a 1:1 ratio. Both my pilot and AC pools couldnīt take the strain. Due to the heavy losses and my inability to wear down his CAP my bombers never really got a chance to come into play.

I have higher hopes this time around but if losses start mounting again I will stand down. The real show in Burma is still about two months away.

The main goal of this operation is to again see if I can break his airforce. If I manage that I will use my bomber force to start attacking his biggest weakness: Supply.

Force Comparison
Allied strength: Fighters: 750, Medium Bombers: 250, Heavy Bombers: 120
Japanese strength: Fighters 450 Bombers: Unknown, estimated 100-150

These are the 200 guys that I hope will break the back of the IJAAF in Burma! The absolute elite of the US army and Navy are gathered here!

[image]local://upfiles/32406/448CE406DC8C4878B06EBB969E9D6A38.jpg[/image]



ny59giants -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (10/13/2012 11:05:25 PM)

[sm=scared0008.gif] [sm=sad-1361.gif] [sm=scared0008.gif]



JocMeister -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (10/14/2012 6:30:28 AM)

Michael,
It wasnīt me? [sm=innocent0009.gif]

[:D]



JocMeister -> RE: Carrier Clash. Sheep bites back? (10/15/2012 8:39:41 PM)

Uff,

Struggling to find time to update! With some luck I might be able to tomorrow. Nothing big happened though besides Erik getting a convoy too close to my LBA. Only minor damage and no troops aboard.

Oh, and he has some new CVs online already. Katsuragi was fired upon by a sub. Duds :( Nagato was hit by a Torp. Perhaps a week or so in the yard.

Michael took a look at my setup and [sm=fighting0056.gif] me. So I spent some 10 hours or so doing stuff I should have sorted out a LONG time ago. Thank you Michael! [:)] [&o]



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