RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (Full Version)

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JeffroK -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/10/2013 6:54:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Question on "kosherness"
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So far I have been hitting the manpower and not targeted oil and stuff directly. Its a bit overpowered and it can certainly be discussed whether this was within the allied capabilities.

But now as I start hitting the HI I wonder if its considered "kosher" to hit specific targets. What do you guys think? Iīm leaning towards doing this as I certainly think the allied would have spared no expense at trying to find and blow up something specific if they deemed it critical.

Also when doing manpower bombings I have no control over what burns. At this stage I donīt really care about HI. Destroying HI at this point wonīt change anything. What I REALLY want to hit is his ability to produce airplanes.

Kosher or not? I say Kosher but would like to hear your opinions.


Gotta disagree with some of this.

First, anything you can bomb you can bomb IMO. Crap on this "overpowered" stuff. One-quarter of the Tokyo metroplex was destroyed in one night. The game doesn't come close to matching that.

On bombing specific industry. You can, but you need to do it in daylight to get anywhere and your losses will be high. Look at your screenie of Tokyo, how many aircraft factories there are. At extended range with only B-29s you won't get 80 points per raid gone or anything like that in my experience. If you were closer, like Sakhalin/Hokkaido, and could use B-17/B-24 hordes then yes, it would work. But your B-29 sortie rate does not add up against the calendar here. IMO nighttime Manpower is your best bet at this range with this few very finicky planes. Fatigue reduces faster than major damage repairs.

Did I mention you need to get CLOSER? [:)] Look at your plane queues after VE Day. Massive influx of non-B-29 4Es. They need someplace to work.

Finally, on HI. You DO care a whole lot about destroying HI. Not because he doesn't have a huge bank; he does. But because producing more is a major source of his Home Island supply pile he needs to defend himself. And to build Arms and Vehicle points he'll need to hold the mainland once you get the Chinese supplied and the Soviets wake up.

Look at your Tokyo raid. 102 HI centers gone in one night. He won't repair. Over the next year that's a pantload of supply he won't have. Multiply that.

You can't control what burns. Some will be industry you don't care about, like engines used on float fighters or something. But a lot will be LI and HI and that's his groceries. Local groceries that don't have to be moved by sea.

I'd stay night/manpower. And get closer. It's worth a LOT of LCU casualties to get 1000 VP per night, night after night.


So I'd argue to take Formosa instead of Java or Hainan and push along the Ryukyu chain to create fighter bases.




JocMeister -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/10/2013 7:22:36 AM)

Thanks for the advice and opinions guys! Really thankful! [&o][:)]

Good info on the HI bullwinkle! Did not consider supply. Have not seen even the slightest indication yet that he is running low anywhere. But who knows. That might be coming!

My prime target (and the one Iīm after right now) is his Dinah factories. Iīm guessing he doesnīt have that many and destroying them would save me a lot of B29s in the end! He did mass something like 40 of them over Palembang a while back and with the paper 4Es I lost 18 of them that night. Not something I can afford.

A daylight campaign is simply not possible at the moment. It might not be for another year. If I attack the "wrong target" and hit a decent sized CAP (100+) I could lose 50 B29s in a single raid. With only 40 per month I canīt do that right now.




JocMeister -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/10/2013 7:25:53 AM)

Bingo!
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Look what I just found! [:)]

[image]local://upfiles/32406/2B60C90C944848F1A68DB2A2AF9EA170.jpg[/image]




koniu -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/10/2013 7:51:00 AM)

Ki-46III Dinah is reckon plane, You need to look for Ki-46III KAI Dinah fighter




JocMeister -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/10/2013 8:17:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu

Ki-46III Dinah is reckon plane, You need to look for Ki-46III KAI Dinah fighter



Whooops! Thanks koniu! That could have been quite the embarrassment! [:D]




Powloon -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/10/2013 8:50:20 AM)

Not sure I can really comment on the strat bombing campaign but perhaps a more general comment.

Your main problem seems to be that he has concentrated his air force (and probably navy and army) to meet your two main vectors of attack at Bangkok and Manila. Perhaps an indirect solution to this would be to open up a new front, one he can't ignore and to me that would mean NORPAC. Even a diversionary attack up here will mean he would have to respond and hopefully thin out his defences elsewhere plus give you some strat bomber bases closer to the HI. Obviously it is winter now but you have 3/4 months (I think) to get some units prepped for the area and use PP to but out Canadian/West Coast forces (if you haven't already)

With the resources that the allies get in 45 this operation could possibly be timed to coincide simultanuosly with another major objective or as a precursor to draw in his reserves whilst you hit him elsewhere. Just my 2p!




JocMeister -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/10/2013 8:56:55 AM)

12th December -44
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Pretty quiet turn.

------------------------
Luzon
------------------------

No action.

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Thailand
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Erik continues to bomb my armor. But his is hitting the wrong ones. He is bombing the ones at Udon and the ones threatening Udon Thani in central Thailand. Perhaps he hasnīt spotted the real danger yet?

Bombers rained in but the bombardments continue to do good damage!

quote:


Ground combat at 55,59 (near Tavoy)

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 112239 troops, 1954 guns, 1190 vehicles, Assault Value = 4794

Defending force 189416 troops, 2241 guns, 2992 vehicles, Assault Value = 5553

Japanese ground losses:
452 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 14 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 18 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 6 disabled
Guns lost 8 (2 destroyed, 6 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
22 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled


His stack canīt be in good shape after two weeks of this? He has lost 900 raw AV since the first attacks. About 400 of those in bombardments and 500 from the only deliberate attack.

At Bangkok Erik has spotted the danger and retreated back to bangkok from Ayuthia. Not sure Iīm so keen on that river crossing into Bangkok anymore. Iīll wait another turn or two to see if is pulling out of Bangkok all together. That will certainly doom his superstack mk.I though as it will be hopelessly far behind own lines.

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DEI
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I again ambush a TF at Waingapoe. What the heck does he have there that is so important?! No troops this time either! [&:] This is the second TF i sink there.

quote:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 11, 44
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Waingapoe at 63,113, Range 10,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
E No.2, Shell hits 18, and is sunk
APD T-3, Shell hits 39, and is sunk
APD T-7, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
LST T-133, Shell hits 15, and is sunk
LST T-136, Shell hits 12, and is sunk
LST T-137, Shell hits 16, and is sunk
LST T-141, Shell hits 17, and is sunk


Allied Ships
DD Bell
DD Black
DD Boyd
DD Clarence Bronson
DD Halligan
DD Lewis Hancock
DD Hickox
DD Hunt, Shell hits 1
DD Duncan
DD Harding, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Doyle


Using a horde of float transports and attack transports I managed to pick up the 3rd OZ division from the accidental unloading yesterday. Its pretty beat up with about 70% disablements. But they will have to do anyway. Canīt wait for them to recover. In we go.

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Strategic bombing.
------------------------

Another 100 HI burns down during the night. Fires went down from 6000 to 1500. Might cause some more damage tomorrow. Another 500 VPs netted! I know we are not playing for them. But I do know Erik looks at them. So I hope this causes some agony! [:D]

Iīm going to spend some time in the coming weeks getting two "rotations" of B29s up. I have 200 B29-25 in squadrons right now with another 60 coming online within 30 days. So Iīll divide them up into two groups. Hopefully I can do one attack each 4 or 5 days.

[image]local://upfiles/32406/CAC26E157E454A37ACC7928373378CCF.jpg[/image]




JocMeister -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/10/2013 9:02:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powloon

Not sure I can really comment on the strat bombing campaign but perhaps a more general comment.

Your main problem seems to be that he has concentrated his air force (and probably navy and army) to meet your two main vectors of attack at Bangkok and Manila. Perhaps an indirect solution to this would be to open up a new front, one he can't ignore and to me that would mean NORPAC. Even a diversionary attack up here will mean he would have to respond and hopefully thin out his defences elsewhere plus give you some strat bomber bases closer to the HI. Obviously it is winter now but you have 3/4 months (I think) to get some units prepped for the area and use PP to but out Canadian/West Coast forces (if you haven't already)

With the resources that the allies get in 45 this operation could possibly be timed to coincide simultanuosly with another major objective or as a precursor to draw in his reserves whilst you hit him elsewhere. Just my 2p!


You are absolutely right. I should have diverted forces for this a long time ago. I could easily have set aside 2-4 divisions for this without noticing it too much. Sadly my inexperience caused me to "overload" Burma and the NG advance. Right now I canīt spare any troops. All divisions are prepped and committed to the next set of objectives. Once they are taken I will get more flexibility.

This is certainly a lesson I will take with me into my next game. Learning by doing? [:)]




Spidery -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/10/2013 9:02:35 AM)

quote:

Did not consider supply. Have not seen even the slightest indication yet that he is running low anywhere. But who knows. That might be coming!


An optimistic explanation for the "missing" aircraft is that supply is running low in forward areas.




JocMeister -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/10/2013 10:40:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidery
An optimistic explanation for the "missing" aircraft is that supply is running low in forward areas.


While optimistic one can always have hope right? [:)]




aztez -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/10/2013 11:01:30 AM)

What is the idea behind hitting Dinah factories? I never bothered with those in my games.

I put most pressure on 1st line fighter production and vital engine factories.

..and if you do fly daytime strikes than keep them around 10 000 feet.




JocMeister -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/10/2013 11:16:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: aztez

What is the idea behind hitting Dinah factories? I never bothered with those in my games.

I put most pressure on 1st line fighter production and vital engine factories.

..and if you do fly daytime strikes than keep them around 10 000 feet.


To knock out his NF production. When massed they can shoot B29s almost as good as if it was daytime! [X(]




Powloon -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/10/2013 12:23:22 PM)

I think your learning by doing is proving most effective! Interesting to see that you thought you overloaded Burma. If that is the case is there any chance of releasing a few divisions here to get them going Rangoon > Cape Town > East Coast? As you can't really attack in the north for the next 3 to 4 months anyway that should be enough time to get them where they might do the most good




JocMeister -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/10/2013 5:58:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powloon

I think your learning by doing is proving most effective! Interesting to see that you thought you overloaded Burma. If that is the case is there any chance of releasing a few divisions here to get them going Rangoon > Cape Town > East Coast? As you can't really attack in the north for the next 3 to 4 months anyway that should be enough time to get them where they might do the most good


My thinking about "overloading" Burma is that I could easily have moved out 4-5000 AV and used somewhere else. Knowing what I know now with a bit more experience under my belt I should have done what Speedy did and landed straight on Sumatra in early 44. Iīm 95% sure it was completely empty. Some BFs and garrison forces tops. I have known the location of the KB pretty much the entire game and had I would have had probably a week before Erik could intervene. But all in all this has been a good learning experience and Iīm sure I will do a lot better in my other PBEM! [:D]

If I need to move any troops I should be able to ship them through the South China Sea very shortly! No need to go around the globe! [&o]




JocMeister -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/10/2013 6:13:19 PM)

Thailand 12th December -44
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Not too much going on. My armor is pressing on and is really beat up by airstrikes. I just ordered an attack on Ubon with the 50th Tank BDE despite 84 in disruption. Not too optimistic about that obviously! [X(]

Erik has concentrated all his airpower on the units moving east. Either he hasnīt spotted the troops moving SW towards Bangkok or he has made a mistake here. Next turn a small recon force with a bunch of Daimlers is going to cut the rail from Bangkok. Tihi! [sm=00000622.gif]

So now Erik will have to walk out of Bangkok if he is thinking about withdrawing. [:'(]

Iīm not too confident in crossing over to Bangkok. Unless he withdraws in two turns Iīm going to cancel it and just surround the whole place. The 4500 AV is critical to the move East. I canīt afford shattering them.

For good or bad I have decided that this will be my spearhead into Indochina and China. This will be reinforced eventually as troops are freed up in Thailand. I have decided to skip any incursion into Malaya. It has not significance right now.

Iīm feeling slightly optimistic about the situation. There are some worries left. Mainly my inability to provide air cover. Some AA units have started arriving though including some heavy 3,7 gun units.



[image]local://upfiles/32406/165FEEE493EB491298C8077D3F3C642E.jpg[/image]




JocMeister -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/10/2013 6:52:54 PM)

Japanese Battlefleet is on the move
______________________________________________________________________________

A bit baffled by this recent movement. The BB TF at Formosa have been hopping from place to place trying to stay hidden. But Allied naval search can now reach across the South China Sea. If he wants to move around and burn fuel thats all good. [:)]

Not so sure what the other TF is up to? Moving SW?! Has he had a change of hearts about leaving the DEI without a fight? Iīll have to keep an eye on this TF. No clue what he is doing with any of the TFs at this point and that worries me.

I havnīt seen KB since that SIGINT intercept a couple of months ago. I have had A LOT of radio traffic at Shanghai though. Possible the KB is there. Its a nuisance not knowing where it is as I have to cover everything moving across the Pacific. Good thing we were allowed to use pickets as long as it had some endurance and a gun. Finally found a use for all those YMS ships! [:D]

[image]local://upfiles/32406/EFBE130FF0D7421393141D7DC3AC03F0.jpg[/image]




Lokasenna -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/10/2013 8:03:21 PM)

I've often wondered, based on my sighting reports, if SW doesn't sometimes mean they're actually heading NE. Or even close to half the time. Best to look at both directions, IMO.




JocMeister -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/11/2013 6:03:44 AM)

Haha, What the heck? [:D]

She sank like a rock!

[image]local://upfiles/32406/1CB67064B92845ABAD010114EEDA2A05.jpg[/image]




jonreb31 -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/11/2013 6:24:38 AM)

Ouch. Interesting enough there actually was a maritime accident at Pearl Harbor in 1944. Lucky yours wasn't as devastating.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Loch_disaster




JocMeister -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/11/2013 10:58:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JonReb

Ouch. Interesting enough there actually was a maritime accident at Pearl Harbor in 1944. Lucky yours wasn't as devastating.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Loch_disaster


Wow, Had not heard of that. Thanks for the link! It was a very interesting read! [:)]




JocMeister -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/11/2013 11:17:17 AM)

Suggested HR change
______________________________________________________________________________

The discussion wonīt die and Erik and I have been sending some emails back and forth. I suggested the following to him in an email:

quote:

Alternative 1:
Remove the HR and set a max altitude of ALL airplanes to 32k. That would give ALL airplanes access to the last MVR band and no plane able to dive on the other. This SHOULD be a fair solution and benefit the best planes and pilots. This of course negates the benefit of the Frank R version but it also removes if for the P47 and Hellcats/Bearcat and later Spits. This will add the much needed diversity for the allied plane pools. This I think is a very fair solution for both sides.

Alternative 2:
Keep the 2nd best MVR band but allow CAP and LRCAP to go at any altitude. This to negate the strato sweep. If I remember correctly you are using this HR in your game with Torsten?

In all honesty I think the first alternative is a very good one and fair for both sides. It will completely do away with the dive bonus and strato sweeps. The only problem I see here is that CAP can still climb above the sweeps if there is time. But as you know radar doesnīt work on sweeps (probably another reason its doing so well) and I have not seen this happen in any of my tests. And I have run perhaps 300-500 sweeps during the last week in sandbox. Its a fair compromise I think. I loose the P47s altitude advantage and later Spits and Hellcat/Bearcat while you lose the Frank. But it will be a boost for all other airframes. Including the IJN ones that lack any fighter with access to the MVR band.


This is perhaps not the best allied deal. But I feel its an important one nonetheless. This will spread the workload out among the allied pools and perhaps add a bit of competitiveness to planes like the P38 and P51. These are supposed to be the workhorses of the USAAF but with the current HR I lose them at a rate of 1:1 with top notch pilots in the P51. Thats simply not sustainable for the pools. It also completely do away with the allied max altitude advantage. But as I hadnīt even thought of that until recently its not something Iīm going to miss and Erik has refused to do away with the HR we have now anyway.

I feel the 1st alternative returns the game to the old ways of Allied quality and Japanese quantity. I will still have an advantage in speed and pilot quality. This will also boost the IJN that lack a fighter with access to the highest MVR band. This should be a fair solution I think? Its a boost to the weaker allied planes but takes away something from the best allied planes. This I think is necessary in order for the allied pools to compete with the enhanced Japanese production.

Whatever it leads to it will remove the dive bonus and thats the real problem. Its so powerful it dwarfs everything else in the airmodel. As both Erik and I agree on this I donīt see why he shouldnīt think this a fair deal.

If he doesnīt I still have some P47s left and when using them in a layered CAP I can shoot down "R"s at a 10:1 ratio. So I just stay defensive until the P47N arrives and then sweep him out of the sky. Once the Bearcat arrives at 200 per month they can add to the pile together with the new Spits at 50 per months. Not very fun but it will do.




princep01 -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/11/2013 2:56:29 PM)

Your loss of AK Nathaniel Currier via explosion in harbor is minor and of passing interest.  However, it would not be so inconsequential had it been another ship.  For instance, as some of you no-doubt know, the Japanese lost one of their 16" gun BBs (Mutsu) in this manner.  If I recall correctly, it was unstable cordite that destroyed Mutsu in harbor.  While the loss was attributed to unstable cordite, I suspect it was made unstable by a Japanese sailor sneaking a smoke.  Talk about the wrong place at the wrong time! 




JocMeister -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/11/2013 3:38:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: princep01

Your loss of AK Nathaniel Currier via explosion in harbor is minor and of passing interest.  However, it would not be so inconsequential had it been another ship.  For instance, as some of you no-doubt know, the Japanese lost one of their 16" gun BBs (Mutsu) in this manner.  If I recall correctly, it was unstable cordite that destroyed Mutsu in harbor.  While the loss was attributed to unstable cordite, I suspect it was made unstable by a Japanese sailor sneaking a smoke.  Talk about the wrong place at the wrong time! 


Thats a cool story! Didnīt know that. A pretty big event to lose a BB in an accident rather than in combat. [X(] Guess the japanese wernīt too happy about that!




catwhoorg -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/11/2013 4:14:10 PM)

They cursed the coding and odd die rolls ?

Then asked for a HR modification...





JocMeister -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/11/2013 5:51:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

They cursed the coding and odd die rolls ?

Then asked for a HR modification...




Anyone knows if something like that actually happened in the game? I would certainly have become pretty gutted if that happened to a CV! [:D]




Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/11/2013 6:16:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister


quote:

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

They cursed the coding and odd die rolls ?

Then asked for a HR modification...




Anyone knows if something like that actually happened in the game? I would certainly have become pretty gutted if that happened to a CV! [:D]


Not that, but I've lost CVs to a single bomb or torpedo.




princep01 -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/11/2013 6:20:47 PM)

I am certain that such things can happen in the game.  In my game (now in mid-October, 1942) I have had two PT Boats run aground "on uncharted rocks" while traveling from Townsville to Cairns in shallow water.  In addition, two transports (one a precious AP, the other a xAK) hit rocks during a landing at Lae.  Fortunately, while the float damage to the AP was 80%, Lae fell unopposed and the ship is slowly recovering and might survive a transit to a good port facility.  The AK suffered less extensive hull dammage and was repaired at Brisbane.   This may be a function of how "prepared" the landing force was as the Lae landing was not prepared beyond about 30%.  However, the possible cause is just speculation on my part.  Nonetheless, these "events" have occurred.

I suspect there is a very small chance each day that a ship may suffer some sort of "accident" and a smaller chance still that the accident might be catastrophic.  In fact, I seem to remember reading this somewhere in the manual or developer's notes, but I am too lazy to go look for it.

It may be small comfort, but I have never heard of a capital ship going up in smoke by some random event in the game, but, frankly, such things did happen occassionally.  IMHO, it is cool the game may incorporate that uncertainty.




princep01 -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/11/2013 6:25:04 PM)

Mooseman, was the CV to the single hit an IJN or Allied ship?  I'm curious as I hit Akagi a long time ago with a single torp.  It is still listed as sunk, and I have not seen her since.  I harbored no expectation that the great vessel was really lost, but your comment makes me wonder. 




Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/11/2013 6:30:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: princep01

Mooseman, was the CV to the single hit an IJN or Allied ship?  I'm curious as I hit Akagi a long time ago with a single torp.  It is still listed as sunk, and I have not seen her since.  I harbored no expectation that the great vessel was really lost, but your comment makes me wonder. 


99.9% of the time it seems to be USS Enterprise. [:)]

FOW works whereby any hit by an Allied torpedo will usually "sink" anything. I've sunk Akagi up to four times in an AI game. It is the Japanese Enterprise I think.




princep01 -> RE: Allies land on Luzon!! (10/11/2013 6:42:25 PM)

Moose, that is interesting about Big E.  In a perverse way it is hilarious.  My experience is that if Saratoga comes within 100 miles of a IJN sub, it will soak up a torp hit.  I have never lost her, but it is annoying, even if within the historical reality of that ship's history.

I guess I am glad that Big E has never taken a hit in my games.  Apparently she is constructed out of paper and wood!

Hummmm, so it is possible Akagi actually is lost.  That is very interesting (walks slowly away rubbing chin and lost in thought).




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