Air War in WitE (Full Version)

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HerzKaraya -> Air War in WitE (6/20/2012 2:32:18 PM)

Hi,

I have played one Campaign as Russian till middle 42 and am playing one Campaign as Axis, now in May 42, against the AI.

From my perspective I think that the Air War, especially being used to the "massacres" that happened in WitP, is kind of harmless.

After the initail airfield attacks, bombing airfields is usually more costly to the attacker than to the defender.

I have tried fighter sweeps and have seen engagements of 100 fighters each side with only 5-10 losses total.

Now I had a force of 120 fighters and 80 bombers interdict a Russian Division and kill 3 squads! Is interdiction really something interesting to consider?
Does it kill the supplies/fuel or increase fatigue or damage something and we cannot see it in the battle result?

In the campaign I end up using my bombers as transports to supply the Panzer spearheads - they really do the job.

The Stukas either donīt fly and when they do..... around 30% losses per mission for a negligible result.

I love this game, but I miss the effectiveness of the old War in Russia, where air-to-air kills where much higher and a good bombing/air support mission could make all the difference.

Pauke, Pauke!



76mm -> RE: Air War in WitE (6/20/2012 3:28:11 PM)

Sommetimes an interdiction attack makes the defending unit lose MPs, which can sometimes be really helpful.



glvaca -> RE: Air War in WitE (6/20/2012 4:06:36 PM)

Have you ever seen that? Seriously?



Tarhunnas -> RE: Air War in WitE (6/20/2012 6:16:13 PM)

Yes, it happens! Mostly to the Soviets though, unless you are late war.



heliodorus04 -> RE: Air War in WitE (6/20/2012 6:54:53 PM)

When you play against the AI (as Axis) you are not seeing nearly the level of abuse that a Soviet player will give you. Frankly, I've accidentally played two weeks of 1941 with all of my planes set to night missions (which I had done to avoid planes flying in the Soviet turn and thus recover fatigue/morale) and I noticed no difference in ground combat. (Remember, this is against the AI).

Even against the AI, I set German interception to 0/0. It is far too ineffective at its objective and produces WAY too much fatigue to be bothered with.

When you play against a human Soviet, unless you adopt the house rules (which most people do, I believe) of no airfield bombing by the Soviet, then the Soviet can reduce the German to 300 fighters by September and 1,200 total aircraft.

In a game with a lot of 'imprecise' supporting algorithm models, the air component of War in the East stands out as hands down the worst modeled/least realistic part of the game. The Luftwaffe can be completely overwhelmed beginning on Turn 2 by biplanes with peasants at the stick.



76mm -> RE: Air War in WitE (6/20/2012 7:21:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
Have you ever seen that? Seriously?


You mean interdiction costing MPs? I have definitely had it happen to me playing as Sov (losing a couple MP, not sure how many), not really sure if my German opponents have suffered from this, although I try my best to maximize interdiction.



M60A3TTS -> RE: Air War in WitE (6/20/2012 7:40:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
When you play against a human Soviet, unless you adopt the house rules (which most people do, I believe) of no airfield bombing by the Soviet, then the Soviet can reduce the German to 300 fighters by September and 1,200 total aircraft.

In a game with a lot of 'imprecise' supporting algorithm models, the air component of War in the East stands out as hands down the worst modeled/least realistic part of the game. The Luftwaffe can be completely overwhelmed beginning on Turn 2 by biplanes with peasants at the stick.


Untrue. Simply untrue. The airbase attack thing was an issue that was identified a while back and nerfed, and rightfully so. Now attacks on airbases cause prohibitive casualties to the attacker.

And the Luftwaffe may lose some planes to biplanes in the early turns, but any statement beyond that is a gross exaggeration.

Having said that, the one thing we do agree on is that the air war was not done well, and WiTW from what we're told will involve a complete overhaul of the same.



Aurelian -> RE: Air War in WitE (6/20/2012 9:22:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
When you play against a human Soviet, unless you adopt the house rules (which most people do, I believe) of no airfield bombing by the Soviet, then the Soviet can reduce the German to 300 fighters by September and 1,200 total aircraft.

In a game with a lot of 'imprecise' supporting algorithm models, the air component of War in the East stands out as hands down the worst modeled/least realistic part of the game. The Luftwaffe can be completely overwhelmed beginning on Turn 2 by biplanes with peasants at the stick.


Untrue. Simply untrue. The airbase attack thing was an issue that was identified a while back and nerfed, and rightfully so. Now attacks on airbases cause prohibitive casualties to the attacker.



Guess he hasn't played in awhile. Really no point for the Sovs to bomb airbases if you're looking to kill planes. Unless you're looking to kill your own.

And this bit about overwhelming the Luftwaffe by T2...... Utter nonsense. Hasn't happenned in any AAR that we've seen.



pompack -> RE: Air War in WitE (6/20/2012 11:02:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
When you play against a human Soviet, unless you adopt the house rules (which most people do, I believe) of no airfield bombing by the Soviet, then the Soviet can reduce the German to 300 fighters by September and 1,200 total aircraft.

In a game with a lot of 'imprecise' supporting algorithm models, the air component of War in the East stands out as hands down the worst modeled/least realistic part of the game. The Luftwaffe can be completely overwhelmed beginning on Turn 2 by biplanes with peasants at the stick.


Untrue. Simply untrue. The airbase attack thing was an issue that was identified a while back and nerfed, and rightfully so. Now attacks on airbases cause prohibitive casualties to the attacker.



Guess he hasn't played in awhile. Really no point for the Sovs to bomb airbases if you're looking to kill planes. Unless you're looking to kill your own.

And this bit about overwhelming the Luftwaffe by T2...... Utter nonsense. Hasn't happenned in any AAR that we've seen.


You have to remember that Helio claimed he stopped playing weeks (months?, time flies) ago.



heliodorus04 -> RE: Air War in WitE (6/21/2012 1:20:52 AM)

Stopped playing people (because the game is so exploitable I don't see the sport in it), not the AI (tweaked to my liking).

I could stand corrected on the air war changes since sometime around 1.06, that was the last time I played people.

I know Aurelian is physiologically incapable of hearing any voice but his own, but it should also be stated that I said it started on turn 2, not that it was achieved.

Side point: Once you've achieved notoriety as an irrefutable critic of the game, the Sovie-o-philes will belittle you even when speaking on a subject that everyone agrees on (in this case, that the air war is an awful representation of World War 2). The Air War has been a generally agreed upon mess since release. But that doesn't stop em from ad hominems.

It's not about being right or wrong for them, it's about silencing critics so no one can hear them. It's a very Pyongyang sort of group.



Ketza -> RE: Air War in WitE (6/21/2012 1:39:04 AM)

If you ramp up Axis Interception to 150% you will take down a considerable amount of Soviet bombers flying offensive air support.

For the most part I only fly Axis bombers on offensive ground support and have seen a difference when 100+ bombers are added in to attack while practicing. When flying defensive I have had far too many occasions when Axis bombers get slaughtered so I stopped that practice.



hfarrish -> RE: Air War in WitE (6/21/2012 2:22:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Stopped playing people (because the game is so exploitable I don't see the sport in it), not the AI (tweaked to my liking).

I could stand corrected on the air war changes since sometime around 1.06, that was the last time I played people.

I know Aurelian is physiologically incapable of hearing any voice but his own, but it should also be stated that I said it started on turn 2, not that it was achieved.

Side point: Once you've achieved notoriety as an irrefutable critic of the game, the Sovie-o-philes will belittle you even when speaking on a subject that everyone agrees on (in this case, that the air war is an awful representation of World War 2). The Air War has been a generally agreed upon mess since release. But that doesn't stop em from ad hominems.

It's not about being right or wrong for them, it's about silencing critics so no one can hear them. It's a very Pyongyang sort of group.



Or maybe its just that people who are trying to have a good time with the game get tired of reading through endless critical, often tiresomely repetitive posts by the same people who clearly need to get a job or find something to do other than sit on a message board 24 hours a day about a game they claim to hate and refuse to play watching for someone, anyone to post another critical post so they can jump in and say AH HA! I TOLD YOU SO!

Very few players here think the game is without problems and doesn't need fixes, or want to "silence critics." Endlessly squeaky wheels get annoying, however.



Aurelian -> RE: Air War in WitE (6/21/2012 3:33:22 AM)

Still waiting for those AARS that show the Luftwaffe overwhelmed starting on T2. Or 3,4,5,6 and so on.

I know helio is incapable of doing such mundane things such as provide proof. Or do anything more than whine till he gets the money he demanded.

But he should at least try.



Aurelian -> RE: Air War in WitE (6/21/2012 3:36:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish


quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Stopped playing people (because the game is so exploitable I don't see the sport in it), not the AI (tweaked to my liking).

I could stand corrected on the air war changes since sometime around 1.06, that was the last time I played people.

I know Aurelian is physiologically incapable of hearing any voice but his own, but it should also be stated that I said it started on turn 2, not that it was achieved.

Side point: Once you've achieved notoriety as an irrefutable critic of the game, the Sovie-o-philes will belittle you even when speaking on a subject that everyone agrees on (in this case, that the air war is an awful representation of World War 2). The Air War has been a generally agreed upon mess since release. But that doesn't stop em from ad hominems.

It's not about being right or wrong for them, it's about silencing critics so no one can hear them. It's a very Pyongyang sort of group.



Or maybe its just that people who are trying to have a good time with the game get tired of reading through endless critical, often tiresomely repetitive posts by the same people who clearly need to get a job or find something to do other than sit on a message board 24 hours a day about a game they claim to hate and refuse to play watching for someone, anyone to post another critical post so they can jump in and say AH HA! I TOLD YOU SO!

Very few players here think the game is without problems and doesn't need fixes, or want to "silence critics." Endlessly squeaky wheels get annoying, however.


He is physiologically incapable, lacks the mental agility, whatever, to understand that. Course he did state he would continue to do so until he gets a refund.

Even Joel put him on ignore. (Don't know if that's still true at this moment.)

See helio, I can fling insults too. Though in your case it's more reality than not.



pompack -> RE: Air War in WitE (6/21/2012 5:11:33 PM)

Aurelian just ignore it. When you react all it does is get your blood pressure up and you play his game, not yours.



Aurelian -> RE: Air War in WitE (6/21/2012 6:58:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

Aurelian just ignore it. When you react all it does is get your blood pressure up and you play his game, not yours.


You are right of course. And it doesn't help my anuerysm any.

I do have him on ignore, but people keep quoting him [:D]






elmo3 -> RE: Air War in WitE (6/21/2012 8:17:46 PM)

Please stop the personal attacks everyone.



kg_1007 -> RE: Air War in WitE (6/22/2012 3:17:00 AM)

In this one I actually have to partially agree with Aurelian lol..hope that does not make me a Soviet fan boy [:D]
But I also agree with Helio on a couple of issues..I have seen enough times where he makes a good point, and others jump instantly on it and hammer him relentlessly. As a relatively new person on this board, some of that behavior has caused myself to think a lot less of many people on here, at least early on, until I caught myself responding by doing the same back to them. We should remember it is just a game though.
As for the air war..it certainly does have issues, but I think that they seem to affect both sides. I have seen the results mentioned above enough to be quite annoyed...a hundred Stukas strike a Tank Brigade, and lose 15 Stukas for the loss of one tank...come on..that is ridiculous... but it does seem to happen rarely. I also for the most part, playing Axis, demolish the Soviet Air Force very quickly..I stop flying every few turns, set everything to 0, sometimes even pull most wings back to reserve for a turn or two, let them recoup, then send them back, especially after the initial fast moves of 1-9 or so. So I have also seen air units hammer the Soviets when I bring them back from this. There is a lot to be said for the adjustable base settings of support, etc, and you can control a great deal of it, even if still a lot is run by the computer sometimes in ways that make you scratch your head. For the most part though, I set interception above 100, and my fighters decimate the Red Air Force whenever they try to fly offensive against me and I am on defense. When I am on offense, I set the escort very high, and again, enemy air lose very high % on their defense, even as I lose a lot on offense still to anti-air, etc...so the "air vs air" I have not much problem with.
I do think that the "Air vs ground" seems very weak still when so many bombers cause in many cases no casualties.



HerzKaraya -> RE: Air War in WitE (6/22/2012 4:06:52 PM)

Look guys,

I appreciate other people's experiences on this subject and that is what this forum is about.
But too many times now I have seen simple discussions being "hijacked" by a couple of members who seem to have some open feud.

My point is - I don't care if it's biased toward the Axis or towards the Soviet, I just plainly think the combat system is biased against the aircrafts' influece on the battlefield.

I am a pilot myself (possibly a bad influence on this matter), have read tons of books on the subject and have played many games based on this war - and this game has many strengths, but the air combat isn't one of it.

And I don't want to wait until WitE2 five years down the road for a fix!
Why don't use WitE as a testbed for the improvements in the engine in line for WitW?
The code........



kg_1007 -> RE: Air War in WitE (6/22/2012 4:25:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bubi Hartmann

Look guys,

I appreciate other people's experiences on this subject and that is what this forum is about.
But too many times now I have seen simple discussions being "hijacked" by a couple of members who seem to have some open feud.

My point is - I don't care if it's biased toward the Axis or towards the Soviet, I just plainly think the combat system is biased against the aircrafts' influece on the battlefield.

I am a pilot myself (possibly a bad influence on this matter), have read tons of books on the subject and have played many games based on this war - and this game has many strengths, but the air combat isn't one of it.

And I don't want to wait until WitE2 five years down the road for a fix!
Why don't use WitE as a testbed for the improvements in the engine in line for WitW?
The code........

I thought I had tried to help some above..I think the air issues are able to be worked around to gain at least a fairly "average" performance from your air force..won't likely do anything great, but won't just be a wasted effort, either.
1-play around with each air base's commitment level.
2-play around with the air doctrine
3-Rest air units on occasion in the National Reserve

I do all of these, and have a solid Luftwaffe on the Axis side that definitely still is able to deal heavy losses to the Soviets into even early '43...not all of the time, but often enough to be worth my while.
Edit: I should say mostly in counter air and offensive counter air..I agree with your assessment of the air-to-ground in this game.



Aurelian -> RE: Air War in WitE (6/22/2012 9:05:02 PM)

It's a good idea, but any major changes for this game are not in the cards. So we'll have to wait for WiTE 2.

IIRC, the air war for WiTW has been changed alot from this one. So has logistics.

KG's #2 is IMHO the best option.

Some people also put groups they want to train up in airbases far from the front.

Keep in mind though, Russian ground support, (I *think* that's the one), IIRC is hardwired to suck rocks in 41.



hfarrish -> RE: Air War in WitE (6/22/2012 9:11:59 PM)


What is the purpose of the Air Commitment Level? Does that designate the number of available planes sortied per mission?



hfarrish -> RE: Air War in WitE (6/22/2012 9:13:22 PM)


Also, as a general matter I agree the air war doesn't feel right and doesn't seem to have the appropriate level of impact...but I hope that WITW doesn't change it to require more micromanagement - the game has enough of that as it is!



Aurelian -> RE: Air War in WitE (6/22/2012 11:55:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish


What is the purpose of the Air Commitment Level? Does that designate the number of available planes sortied per mission?


It allows you to semi automatically transfer air units to the base. (Either the AI will do it, OR, IIRC, it will show a list of what you can pick.) Based on the level you pick and the range you choose. (Less than 20, less than 40, 41+, all ranges).

More or less, it's a way to cut down on mouse clicks.



Aurelian -> RE: Air War in WitE (6/22/2012 11:56:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish


Also, as a general matter I agree the air war doesn't feel right and doesn't seem to have the appropriate level of impact...but I hope that WITW doesn't change it to require more micromanagement - the game has enough of that as it is!


You won't be playing Bombing the Reich in WiTW :) But the strategic air war will be part of the game I think.



M60A3TTS -> RE: Air War in WitE (6/27/2012 10:51:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
Some people also put groups they want to train up in airbases far from the front.


I haven't seen any evidence that that really works. Units gain experience through combat. It isn't like morale in ground units where if you are so far from the enemy it improves.

If you look at the 41 GC, the 27 IAD of the Transcaucus Front is locked down for at least 100+ turns and remains far from the front always. Here is my discontinued game with Pelton where the exp is:

Turn 5-

25 IAP: 51
35 IAP: 55
50 IAP: 49

Turn 55-

25 IAP: 52
35 IAP: 55
50 IAP: 51

Turn 105-

25 IAP: 52
35 IAP: 55
50 IAP: 51

So in 100 turns, 3 regiments netted +3 exp. You can net better results in 3 weeks on the front lines.



Aurelian -> RE: Air War in WitE (6/27/2012 8:15:01 PM)

Yes, but how about air groups far from the front that are put there by the player? Though I don't expect them to go any higher than 50 or so. I would think they get there faster?

Wish I kept track of the ones that I have way back from the front.



M60A3TTS -> RE: Air War in WitE (6/27/2012 8:44:17 PM)

Since you say 50, I think you're confusing morale and experience, since units more than 10 away from the front lines will get morale boosts eventualy capping at 50 until the NM level goes beyond that.  But with air units, it's the complete opposite relationship of morale vs. experience compared to ground units.  With air units, higher experienced units get more air-to-air or air-to-ground kills.  Morale only limits the experience growth to an equal value.  Then it's a trip to the national reserve to bump up the morale level, and then back to the front for more combat and exp.



Aurelian -> RE: Air War in WitE (6/28/2012 1:34:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Since you say 50, I think you're confusing morale and experience,


Now that you mention it, I am. I just checked a bunch of Il-2 groups, and their experience is @48. So off to the front they went.

Thanks for clearing my confusion :)



HerzKaraya -> RE: Air War in WitE (6/28/2012 12:48:51 PM)

I thank you all for the game tips about improving morale and experience of my airgroups. Helpful as they are itīs not THAT point I want to address with my thread.

My airgroups all have high morale, high experience, are loaded to the max with the newest model of plane and the airbases are mostly below their max AV value. The pool also is full of spare planes.

But what is this good for if they donīt affect ground combat as theyīre supposed to? If a bomb unit mission kills 3 squads and becomes a "Selbstmord" (suicide) mission for the Stukas even against no air opposition?
If attacking an airfield with a 100 fighters and a 100 bombers doesnīt even score you a couple air-to-air kills? Not to talk about aircraft killed on the ground...

THAT is the problem... in my humble opinion.

Please gives us a fix for this!



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