RE: Rhine or Ruin (Full Version)

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Klydon -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/8/2012 3:22:14 PM)

I may be misreading where you think his tanks/mech are. It sounds like he has just a little extra with PG4, but you make it sound like PG2 and PG3 have been reduced to just one PG and the other one sent south so that there are 2 mech groups in the south.

I sort of like to think in terms of panzer corps. (PG1 has 3 corps to start, PG2 3 corps, PG3 2 corps, and PG4 2 corps). That is 7 corps north of the marshes and 3 south. I usually like to send 1 corps south from PG2 and will run a extra corps from PG3 with AGN. AGN has 3 corps, center 3 corps, and south 4 corps.

Very narrow salients by him on his advances north and center.



M60A3TTS -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/8/2012 4:00:07 PM)

I like the thinking that is going on over how to reduce certain production to keep the supply base stronger. Too many Soviet airplanes in production is a factor in weakening the supply chain over time. The one other factory type that seems to need a step up in recognition is trucks. Save enough of them and you can strengthen the Soviet mobile formations down the road in Fall '42 and swing the strategic initiative to your side sooner.



Peltonx -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/8/2012 8:01:01 PM)

Good job so far MT no major pockets or minor ones given up so far and hes under control (so far).



Farfarer61 -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/9/2012 2:29:26 AM)

HI discussion follow up. Since the tank battalion to regiment upgrade in Sep 42 boots all your KVs into the pool ( like 2-3000), I am reconsidering the standard evac i.e saving "all" the KV1 factory from Leningrad. I'm thinking 1 point only at the last minute.




Michael T -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/9/2012 3:17:54 AM)

So far no serious factory losses apart from the HI left behind.

Thanks for the info re bracketed supply state.

From my recon I gather he has from AGN 4 Pz xx, 3 Mot xx, AGC 7 Pz, 5 Mot, AGS 6 Pz, 5 mot. 1 Mot unaccounted for.

The far northern front still holds. See pic. 100 Fighters plus 140 bombers. A leader with a 6 rating for INF combat. I am confident this line will hold for now.



[image]local://upfiles/22630/29E43F710A244D1F9513445912D306B9.jpg[/image]



Flaviusx -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/9/2012 5:17:48 AM)

Now isn't that much more cost effective than running away to the Svir, spending gobs of APs on forts, and having the Finns blow them up and drive to the rear of Leningrad Front when Leningrad falls? With a grand total of 9 divisions, all that is shut down. (You could even throw a couple of brigades up there in the rear to act as reserves, but strictly speaking, not necessary.)

You don't even need that many planes up there. The bombers are superfluous. A single base with some fighters is good enough.




76mm -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/9/2012 5:51:37 AM)

I'm surprised by how strong those Sov divs facing the Finns are. This early in the game, almost all of mine have a CV of 1; did you cherry pick and send good units up there, or does their commander have a good admin rating or whatever leads to increased CVs?



Michael T -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/9/2012 8:20:40 AM)

All my best units are in the Northern and North Western Fronts. 5 out of the 9 xx shown here are moral 48 to 53. These were all refitted. I pulled one out this turn and replaced with a 42 morale. I am paying much closer attention to morale in this game than in my other Soviet games. Basically any xx of 45 morale or better gets 100% TOE. 44 and below 60% to 80% depending. My OOB is 4.63 mill at turn 7. I like.



randallw -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/9/2012 10:27:53 AM)

Those hexes being defended are great in terms of being a bottleneck for the Finns; each hex is a forest ( light or heavy ), with the two lower hexes on the eastern side of a river.



76mm -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/9/2012 10:51:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw
Those hexes being defended are great in terms of being a bottleneck for the Finns; each hex is a forest ( light or heavy ), with the two lower hexes on the eastern side of a river.


Well this is kind of any eye-opener--I've heard Flaviusx go on about this, but with typical ant divisions didn't see it as practicable. Howeber, with a couple of good divisions, and some level 3 forts (not sure how that happened before the Finns swept them aside!), looks like a great approach.



Flaviusx -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/9/2012 11:56:46 AM)

It was always possible to get a fair number of these divisions early on, 76mm.

Until the wretched 41b TOE kicks in, anyways. That's the real killer of rifle division CVs.



Tarhunnas -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/9/2012 3:01:34 PM)

But to what end? Defending a lot of swamp and forest? Once Leningrad is lost there is nothing to defend up there. And you have to abandon that bottleneck anyway as soon as Leningrad falls, unless you have a very good defense line on the Volchov.



Seminole -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/9/2012 4:49:28 PM)

quote:

With a grand total of 9 divisions, all that is shut down. (You could even throw a couple of brigades up there in the rear to act as reserves, but strictly speaking, not necessary.)


Until you get hit with a bad roll and see your CV crippled while the Axis triples.

quote:

But to what end?


Avoid building 11 fortified regions on the Svir, potential for wins (my earliest Gds units have come from such a line before). I suppose cost/benefit on that is in the eye of the beholder.

I'm impressed by the rapid fortification, as any units you move north of Leningrad before the Finns attack automatically become immobile. If you can't rail them into position and get them off the trains in the same turn, they'll be stuck until the Finns attack.
MT, did you boost sappers/construction SUs in 7th Ind Army?



notenome -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/9/2012 5:16:22 PM)

Maybe he put down some FR in those hexes early?



Flaviusx -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/9/2012 5:26:07 PM)

Seminole, that's what reserves are for. I'd backstop that line with two or three brigades just for that purpose. (Yes, brigades. Good enough to stop the Finns, and higher chance of activation.) I fill out 7. Army to command capacity, in truth. But this is possibly overinsurance, and I think Michael has the cork on pretty tight up here.

I don't think the Finns are going anywhere here.

As far as digging goes, 7. Army already starts with a nice set of SUs. I add two sapper regiments to that and call it day. They dig in surprisingly fast up there. Those early 41a rifle divisions can have very high engineering values, too.






Flaviusx -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/9/2012 5:29:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

But to what end? Defending a lot of swamp and forest? Once Leningrad is lost there is nothing to defend up there. And you have to abandon that bottleneck anyway as soon as Leningrad falls, unless you have a very good defense line on the Volchov.


To make sure that the fall of Leningrad doesn't become a total crackup in the north, as seems to happen each and every game to everybody else. People are giving up way too much ground up there, it's totally false economy.

With the Finns bottled up, the Soviet line naturally stabilizes at the Volkhov. This is immensely and quite self evidently better than running back to Yaroslavl.



HITMAN202 -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/9/2012 8:39:27 PM)

This is great insight. But after the fall of Lenigrad, why keep the quality Soviet army up north and hang on to the Volkov with another army or two past the 41 blizzard. ??? Likely they will be facing only Finns north of the "Finnish No Move Line." Granted the Soviets are giving up a ton of space, but freeing up those units to slow down the Axis '42 offense may more than offset the negatives. Looking at the Farfarer/M60 game, in spite of the loss of all the territory in northern Russia (which would be a very extreme outcome of abandoning the Vokov line ), Pelton feels M60 has a very winable game. This seems extreme (and even more so "gamey"), but ... ???



Michael T -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/9/2012 10:19:03 PM)

I intend to eventually remove the higher quality units and replace with lower morale dudes as time and fort levels permit. I will eventually, if the line holds at the volkov build level 4 forts. This thing pays for itself after time. FWIW I invested 3 extra xx on the front line facing the Finns before they attacked and as a result I did not lose a single xx from the inital border units facing the Finns.

I ran tests against this defence before the game started and I was not able to breach it after 3 turns of attacks and horrific Finnish casualties. I like the setup and and will keep using it.

To avoid the 'freezing' of units before they get in to position you need to creep up close with dudes entrained and then get into position in one go. I did get burned with one division getting stuck but all went well in the end.



timmyab -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/9/2012 10:25:42 PM)

That's good advice, I'd never thought of doing that.Difficult to avoid losing two or three divisions otherwise.



notenome -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/9/2012 10:55:45 PM)

One must also remember that the Finns don't have many replacements, so anything which bleeds them is cost effective.



bigbaba -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/10/2012 11:42:18 AM)

flav was damnd right about defending the far north against the finns. it saves a lot of AP in 41 and you do not need to give back a lot of room.

i will always reinforce the 7th ind. army from now in my games.



Michael T -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/12/2012 7:27:23 AM)

End Soviet T8

Good and bad news from the front.

The bad. AGC achieved a very tight pocket to the east of Vyazma. 6 Div's trapped, totalling around 60K future POW's, including two 50 morale units. Plus several other single units across the front that are trapped.

The good. Leningrad still has a land link and the battle for it is becoming costly for the Axis. Soviet attacks pushed back several Reg's west of Rzhev and a Pz xx pushed back just in front of Kharkov.

I just received the Axis T9 and no disasters to report. He has all but surrounded Kharkov, but all Arm and T34 factories have been evacuated. The HI and Vehicles though are as good as lost. Leningrad still not cut off.


[image]local://upfiles/22630/22D4B77E983744828D63E6FFD7256CEB.jpg[/image]



Michael T -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/12/2012 7:28:59 AM)

Some data and a couple of close ups around Moscow and Leningrad.

[image]local://upfiles/22630/CB8823B0DD1B43BF9E0C83A82B359393.jpg[/image]



janh -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/12/2012 12:19:11 PM)

Wow, that is a checkerboard down south. Seems like his Panzerdivisions are still in decent shape, though they could use a refit break. Buying time in Leningrad is a good strategy, Flavius is right that the battle for Moscow starts at Ostrov. Also smart move using some morale 50+ divisions to hold off the Finns that far north. With weaker units this would not work, even against AI, but this way it must pay dividends.

I would attempt just one thing differently than you presently do: I would pull all the Cavalry, Tank (early tank formations on both sides lack the infantry elements to make them economic/good defensive units anyway), Mechanized and a few infantry divisions out from the front at Leningrad and Moscow, and create two diversions: One serious push south of Lake Ilmen, vector West through Staraya Russa threatening the rail line through Pskov, and perhaps a second generally S or SSW along the Lovat threatening Velikie Luki. The latter may assist the former, and be a little more risky due to the poor retreat and supply terrain SW of the Valdai hills and Lake Seeliger. It seems presently both thrusts could be safe for 2-3 turns from an encirclement, and if only marginally successful could require your opponent to detach at the very least additional infantry to secure the area where AGN and AGC meet, if not even send Panzers from PzGrp. 3 and 4 to help stave off the threat?

Generally I feel your opponent concentrates his forces to much. Yes, this way he can advance brute force, just like the Germans at Kursk, but key to large pockets, or pockets in general is width. If you look back at the pockets of Wyjasma and Bryansk, it is amazing to see how widely spread out AGC was, from Pzgrp 2 and 2nd Army units starting basically from the region of Chernigov near Kiev to 4th and 9th Army and PzGrp 4 and 3 the south and north of Smolensk. I guess it not only does forces the Soviet to spread his weak counters, but also adds uncertainly to the main direction or break-thru point of any thrust.



HITMAN202 -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/12/2012 3:25:48 PM)

I have been surprised how effective a broad Axis advance can be. But you've got to go where the money is (Leningrad and Moscow) and small, concentrated pockets (3-4 hexes with 6-8 units) can be achieved. I've noticed that with the use of Reserve mode, fewer Soviets rout and pockets are easier to form (its important to use mech units to manipulate the retreats in a favorable direction.) But even in a broad Axis advance, good use of carpets will limit units getting isolated (as I've seen M60 do.) Also the Soviets can concentrate their Cavalry inbetween the major Army Groups and south of AGS to connect them and allow the concentration of the infantry in the path of the Axis advance. Those cavalry units ina carpet are almost impossible to isolate.



randallw -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/13/2012 3:04:53 AM)

It looks like the 1st Ghost Army is defending west of Kursk.



Michael T -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/13/2012 3:06:38 AM)

I think the risks involved (the destruction of the entire attacking forces) in a major attack by the SU before winter 41 far outweigh any possible gain. I am not in anyway geared for a major attack at this stage. My only attacks are opportunistic nuisance bumps. Last turn I pushed back some Regs west of Rhzev and if they had of retreated to more favourable hexes I had a Cav unit that could well have trashed several Luftwaffe bases but they did not retreat where I needed them to go.

My focus has been and continues to be maintaining as strong an army as possible for winter 41/42, maintaining the defensive hubs of Leningrad/Moscow and evacuating as much IND as possible. All other considerations are secondary. Any forces that would be sacrificed in any major attack would be far better employed defensively and if they survive will inflict much more pain during the winter than they possibly could right now. The SU simply has no teeth in the summer of 41. The best you can do is prey on German mistakes.



Farfarer61 -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/13/2012 4:25:17 AM)

Not sure about the Russian defence against the Finns. I want to give them everything including Vologda or more, and watch their morale self destruct. Until the much needed rule cutting atll Murmansk supply and lend lease if that rail line is cut, bring on the incipient 'northern Rumanians'.



governato -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/13/2012 5:10:18 AM)

There is a big fat SU Tank division just S of the Neva that I would recommend moving East asap to avoid getting it trapped in Leningrad. Once that happens (I learned from past mistakes, see attachment) it becomes a major supply sink for not much in return.

[image]local://upfiles/38323/110E37AFBDC24757BC1B1AFEBA7FF9EC.jpg[/image]



Flaviusx -> RE: Rhine or Ruin (7/13/2012 5:23:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

Not sure about the Russian defence against the Finns. I want to give them everything including Vologda or more, and watch their morale self destruct. Until the much needed rule cutting atll Murmansk supply and lend lease if that rail line is cut, bring on the incipient 'northern Rumanians'.


Somehow, this business of running all the way to Yaroslavl up north never really seems to work out very well for the Soviets.

The Finns can be blown up right where Micheal has them in 1944 whith Red Army 2.0. A couple of stacks of rifle corps backed up by artillery divisions will do the trick. People are making this way more complicated than it needs to be. And when defeated there, Finland is gone. No room to run away.



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