RE: China Area Panzer Army (Full Version)

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PaxMondo -> RE: China Area Panzer Army (12/8/2012 2:53:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


In my game all but a couple of the merchants in HK were sunk on the first turn before I entered a move. I would not have used a second of dwell time to load them with anything. They need to be running like the IRS is after them.

But if you DO want to load fuel, how is that possibly "gamey"? It's your fuel, they're your ships.

+1

I target the shipping in HK as soon as the HR's will allow ... very few, if any escape. As CB says, loaded with fuel they go down that much faster. Even a Ida can sink one. [:'(]



Q-Ball -> RE: China Area Panzer Army (12/8/2012 9:52:38 PM)

12-22 to 12-28:

Good comments, to answer Pax I think I have been punching at the edges already; I can take Tabiteua almost as soon as I feel like, because Arorae is built-up enough to cover it without CVs. I also plan a couple other moves at the perimeter. A major move into the DEI, though, is going to attract KB, and I don't have enough to counter KB AND an IJN Air Fleet. I can handle one or the other, but not both at once.

But, some possibilities are open with the fall of Darwin, which I'll outline. First, action elsewhere.

Burma: Still a stalemate; he has alot committed there, and I won't be able to break through with my less than 100% commitment.

China: I will post an updated map, but the IJA has broken into the Chungking plain. He is isolating the remaining cities and units. I hold all roads into the plain, though, so that is likely complicating his supply situation. Just trying to keep the IJA busy there as long as I can.

IJA Moves: Even so, I see through Intel alot of units leaving China. 9th Mixed Bde is at Christmas Island; this is a China unit. So is the 68th Division, which is headed to Kendari. There have been a couple others. Clearly, he is taking advantage of the collapse of China to start buying units. My guess is that he is buying trashed ones, and allowing them to recuperate at their new destinations. That's what I would do.

He is clearly building up the perimeter. I think by holding Cocos and a few other things he has a long perimeter to defend; this is my hope.

Southern DEI:

Darwin falls as expected, since Greyjoy really pulled everyone out of Australia. What next here?

First, I need to get some convoys to Darwin. No easy task, as you can see he has major bases close-by. I am going to start with low value ships under LRCAP, to get some supplies in, before I try troops or fuel.

This is a touchy area, but if I can build Darwin and Bathurst Is, I can maybe get some things done under LBA, like a landing at Saumaki, or the island to the south of it. This is also a great area for PTs; once I have a base within 6 hexes of his, I can harass any IJN shipping in the area with PTs.

But in near term, I need to get stuff to Darwin. If I can start a move north, there are alot of ways to advance without any CV support. This would be key.

[image]local://upfiles/6931/66B46D43FAE44D348CDDACAC85D4AB2E.jpg[/image]



PaxMondo -> RE: China Area Panzer Army (12/9/2012 3:35:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

12-22 to 12-28:

Good comments, to answer Pax I think I have been punching at the edges already; I can take Tabiteua almost as soon as I feel like, because Arorae is built-up enough to cover it without CVs. I also plan a couple other moves at the perimeter. A major move into the DEI, though, is going to attract KB, and I don't have enough to counter KB AND an IJN Air Fleet. I can handle one or the other, but not both at once.


Yep, and I agree with your strategy and tactics. Just wanted you to consider stepping them up a bit as many places may be defended lighter than normal due to his focus in China. He's counting on the KB to deter you, but it can only be in place at a time ... and it uses a lot of fuel getting there.

Another thing to consider: he's built up his economy (air factories), but he hasn't taken much more than historical. I have to suspect that he hasn't saved that much HI yet. Certainly not to MikeS standards. Something to keep tucked away for late game.



Q-Ball -> RE: China Area Panzer Army (12/14/2012 3:31:01 AM)

12-29 to 1-7-43

With the turn to the New Year, lots of action around the map, particularly around Darwin.

But first, let's wade into the nightmare that is China

China:

My lines around Kienko, which have held for a couple months, finally collapsed. A path opened from Sian into the Chungking plain via the north, so it's happened: The plains are invested.

He also had broken into the plains from the south, though there I still hold all the roads. It doesn't matter that much, as I'm now pretty much down to Chengtu, Chungking, and pockets of units all over the place.

So we are in Phase III: The end in China

I do still hold Kunming to Paoshan, and hope to hold it awhile. That's the only area I am flying supplies into.

I foresaw the collapse in China, but still sucks to see it happen. Greyjoy made me pay for every mistake, so he did a great job on the land campaign.

Battle of Bathurst Island:

My initial attempts to bring supplies to Darwin resulted in a sharp action off Bathurst Island.

First, I was tardy in my CAP, and Betties from Timor (I think), sank PENSACOLA with 2 TTs. OUCH!

Next turn, my remaining TF (LOUISVILLE, ACHILLES, LEANDER, and severa DDs) were met with an IJN force consisting of 4 old CLs, and about 8 DDs, but mostly older ones.

In surface action, LOUISVILLE was heavily damaged, but nothing sank on my end. We sank a MINEKAZE class DD, and heavily damaged 2 others that were finished off by subs. Alot of Netties sortied though, and I had CAP from Darwin; over 50 IJN planes were shot down, mostly by F4F and P-40E.

So, we lost a CA, another heavily damaged (but will live), and in return we sank 3 older DDs, and shot down 50 planes. Overall, a slight IJN victory, but I did manage to run a ton of convoys in.

Darwin:

So we lost the battle, but won the campaign, as several convoys are unloading supplies, fuel, units at Darwin. We shall soon have a major base there, prior to a move on Selaroe and Babo.

The IJN has alot of ships around this area; I hesitate to commit BBs, because he can see them coming through Torres Strait. For now, I just have cruisers. We'll see when I make a serious move.

[image]local://upfiles/6931/924F70144F8F4476BBD43F027988EC56.jpg[/image]



PaxMondo -> RE: China Area Panzer Army (12/14/2012 8:08:30 AM)

That is one micro sized map you got there!  [;)]



JocMeister -> RE: China Area Panzer Army (12/14/2012 8:54:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

That is one micro sized map you got there!  [;)]


[:D]



Wuffer -> RE: China Area Panzer Army (12/14/2012 10:23:35 AM)

ten times downloaded ... [:D]



MAurelius -> RE: China Area Panzer Army (12/14/2012 10:30:47 AM)

and even if downloaded it stays tiny.... - maybe he wants to check whether our eyesight is still 20/20 :P



Wuffer -> Great idea!!! (12/14/2012 10:37:11 AM)

but it is still a very clever move by Q-Ball, the sudden activity in a more or less quit AAR should make someone quite
nervous. :-)



PaxMondo -> RE: China Area Panzer Army (12/15/2012 12:28:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MAurelius

and even if downloaded it stays tiny.... - maybe he wants to check whether our eyesight is still 20/20 :P

Ok, I'll fess up right now: mine hasn't been 20/20 in a LONG time. No need to check. [:D]



Q-Ball -> So many social engagements, so little time (12/17/2012 4:22:58 AM)

1-8-43 through 1-15-43

Sorry about the map size, fixed it. Just seeing how many folks are reading this![:D]

China:

The defenses to the east of the Chungking plain completely collapsed, so he is in the plain. He has not invested Chengtu and Chungking, but that's all that's left of the main part of China.

Kunming holds on the other side, but I think it will fall; he is flanking it through the mountains, and will win the airbattle over it

Australia:

On to better things....Oz is going well, IMO.

Darwin is building up nicely; since that one surface engagement, I have been moving things there unmolested. I should have the troops gathered there to make a move on Saumlaki within a month.

I am also doing final preparations for a move on Milne Bay. This is really a sideshow, but I want to a) draw strength from the main area, and b) secure the Torres Strait. I don't want to commit the troops it would take to clear the 35,000 guys at Port Moresby, but if I take Milne Bay, he'll eventually be forced to either let those troops starve or abandon PM overland. He won't be able to reach it via sea anymore.

Indian Ocean:

I am also planning a landing in the IO, for sometime in March of 1943



JeffroK -> RE: So many social engagements, so little time (12/17/2012 6:31:19 AM)

Do you need Milne Bay??

Would one, or two, of the nearby islands serve the same purpose but be more lightly defended??

Same in the DEI, why Timor if the islands between Timor & Bali will do?



crsutton -> RE: So many social engagements, so little time (12/17/2012 3:21:09 PM)

Just wanted to let you know that I am enjoying your AAR but not commenting much as I am reading and commenting (carefully, I hope) on Greyjoy's. But nice job at Darwin. Losing a CA for in order to get supply to Darwin is a good trade. The major strategic gain negates the tactical loss. A tactical loss for the Allies means much less than it does for Japan.

And as I discovered myself, China is the one theater the Allies can totally screw up (Well played! [:D]), and not really have it affect the outcome of the war.



Oliver Heindorf -> RE: So many social engagements, so little time (12/18/2012 1:48:18 PM)

Hello, I am not the person who is posting much on other persons AAR but I like it very much :)

As I read both sides, don't expect me to say anything else that I sit back and enjoy the show :)



Q-Ball -> RE: So many social engagements, so little time (12/20/2012 4:18:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Do you need Milne Bay??

Would one, or two, of the nearby islands serve the same purpose but be more lightly defended??

Same in the DEI, why Timor if the islands between Timor & Bali will do?


Well, stay tuned....answers to follow. In general, I am a big beleiver in bypassing strong points. The Allies can bomb bases in their rear, and it's almost better; isolated units can't be re-built. There are over 60,000 troops on Timor, including nearly 40,000 in Koepang. No way I'm landing at Koepang!

1-16-43 to 1-22-43:

China:

The Japanese are rolling in the plains; they have entered Chengtu, shutting down the LI there. I have 80,000 troops there, so it's probably awhile before he can take it. At Chungking, I am moving units out of town, so they don't get overstacked.

Northern Australia:

Here it's been the most busy.

Greyjoy has anticipated my next moves on Selaroe, unfortunately; Selaroe has 4,000 troops, Babar has 3,500, and Samlauki has over 11,000. That was quick!

Fast Transports brought in troops to Selaroe under my nose on the 16th. On the next run, though, I had DBs up and running at Bathurst Island, which is already lvl-2. The attacks were spread out, but we put bombs in 4 different CLs. I had Beauforts at Darwin, but they were bombing Samlauki instead of on NavT. Too bad!

I have a surface combat TF at sea; they will attempt to intercept the damaged IJN CLs tomorrow night. My TF consists of 3 CAs, 2 CLs, and a bunch of DDs.



Q-Ball -> RE: So many social engagements, so little time (12/26/2012 10:51:44 PM)

More details to follow, but I have suffered a crushing defeat. I am likely to lose several capital ships for no losses on the Japanese side, other than KITAKAMI and lots of aircraft. It's a shame I squandered the advantages I accumulated in an afternoon. Oh well.

Unfortunately we had a CV exchange where I was destroyed, and we failed to score a hit. It's that bad.

I should be able to continue the game, but that's going to make it really really bad for awhile



DivePac88 -> RE: So many social engagements, so little time (12/27/2012 12:21:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Unfortunately we had a CV exchange where I was destroyed, and we failed to score a hit. It's that bad.



Sorry to hear this Brad, but I would make a good guess that Greyjoy's carrier air-groups are shredded now. So KB's effectiveness is suppressed for a few months, and you have new carriers and Hellcats arriving in that time frame. [:)]

Edit; I was wondering if he has reequipped with Judy's and A6M5s, but I will find out when you post your report I suppose.



Q-Ball -> Defeat (12/27/2012 4:26:46 AM)

2-9-43:

I haven't posted in awhile, no fun when you have to report a crushing defeat, but here it goes.

I had organized an invasion of Rossel Is. My plan was to invade and get landfall, then move all my shipping to the other side of Australia for a landing on Christmas Is and Enganno. I wanted Rossel as a diversion, and to also isolate his troops at Port Moresby.

In hindsight, of course, I should have waited for Hellcats and to make sure I knew where his CVs were. I purposely showed him a couple CVEs a week ago in the IO, and started bombing Christmas Is; I hoped to draw his attention and CVs to this area. I thought I was successful, because I spotted what appeared to be CVs off Ambon. In retrospect, a bad sighting report.

So, I went ahead. I even paused to identify what was up, and found KB early enough to abort. A trap I stayed in!

Here was the set--up after turn 1; at this point, I have only lost an LSI, and CL CLEVELAND has eaten 2 torpedos from the 27 subs I spotted. (Yes, 27). I decided at this point to make for the Australian Coast, but we didn't move far enough, probably a refuel.

I wasn't too freaking out, because I calculated that I had 510 A/C vs. 500 or so I thought would be in KB + the Junyos. I didn't know that EVERY CVL was there, but even so, I didn't think it would be so one-sided........

[image]local://upfiles/6931/9BF4986BB2644E7B83FF0C75FEDAFC77.jpg[/image]



Q-Ball -> RE: Defeat (12/27/2012 4:35:05 AM)

2-9-43

..we didnt' get far enough, however, and a CV Battle ensued. Up to this point, I made a few errors, then Lady Luck abandoned me!

Weather in the morning was Hazy, but my CVs reacted toward the IJN CVs, and also separated! This was critical to the outcome!

The IJN CVs did NOT separate; so, his strikes scored multiple hits, and I scored not a single hit, topped-off by a 200-plane strike that came up completely empty. Nothing, nada; no hits at all!

This is a disaster of course. I expected, with flak and everything, to at least cause him some damage. A couple hits would have been nice. NOTHING!

(well, we did sink KITAKAMI, but that was more harm than help)

Such is luck, maybe I'll get him back in that department later, but for now we have to run, again, for the Australian Coast.

Damage so Far:

ENTERPRISE, and 2 CVEs are sunk. PRINCE OF WALES, and NORTH CAROLINA are doomed, and will be left behind to soak off attacks.

All other CVs can make at least 25 knots and run air ops, barely, and are all booking it at Flank speed for hopeful saftey. I split everyone in two groups, ensuring survival of at least half, because I can't afford to lose everybody.

We took other precautions to hopefully survive:

1. Created 40 PTs at Townsville, and sending them into the night towards the Japanese; hopefully, to intercept cruiser TFs and burn time on his end
2. Cairns is piled-high with about 120 DBs and Torp Planes, plus fighters; he will likely want to stay away from this spot
3. Townsville has 200 fighters on LRCAP to shepherd everything in

If I am really lucky, I won't lose more than 2 BBs, but I probably won't be; I havent' been so far

What Next:

In an instant, I went from feeling pretty good about my position in this game to wondering how I am going to win. Waiting a year, with China gone, there will be IJA troops on every hex stacked to the limit. I can't throw in the towel, but it looks bleak

It's possible that my purpose is to serve as a cautionary tale to others: Wait on using the USN CVs until you get Hellcats!

[image]local://upfiles/6931/386861332F344D7D821A67C7867389A4.jpg[/image]



Oliver Heindorf -> RE: Defeat (12/27/2012 10:06:32 AM)

ouch ! That gotta hurt ! I think he just knew how you played the game before and anticipated it right this time. Better luck next time !



CarnageINC -> RE: Defeat (12/27/2012 10:24:46 AM)

WOW....what bad luck Q....Good luck on saving what you can and thanks for the update [;)]



JocMeister -> RE: Defeat (12/27/2012 4:06:08 PM)

Ouch, that sucks! Bad luck with the CV reaction! I think I will consider bunching all CVs together from now on. Seen CV reaction mess things up on too many occasions now.

I donīt think it was a mistake not to wait for the Hellcats. If not for the reaction things could just as well have gone in your favor. Keep on fighting. Loosing a CV, 2 CVEs and 2 fast BBs arnīt the end of the world for you! [:)]



JohnDillworth -> RE: Defeat (12/27/2012 4:10:58 PM)

yikes!! a significant but not crushing defeat. GJ has the initiative again for sure. 1 CV and 2 BB's hurts but looks like you saved the other flight decks, for now. How badly banged up are they? I ask because I don't think you can fix much flotation damage in Australia. If they have to go to the big drydocks they are going to have to run the gauntlet of SS's



Canoerebel -> RE: Defeat (12/27/2012 4:17:56 PM)

Hey, Brad, I hadn't read either of the two AARs for ten days.  Checked in today and discovered all that had transpired.  Always hurts to see the Allies suffer in a carrier battle, so "I feel your pain."

No, really, I do.  I've been through much worse.  (You may have too, though considering how good you are you probably haven't lost an entire fleet of carriers like I have at least twice.)  It will seem very bleak for a few days.  Then, you'll begin to emerge from the cloud of pain.  A few ideas for what you might do down the road will come to mind.  And eventually you'll come back, do well, and feel a heckuva lot better.

Good luck!



crsutton -> RE: Defeat (12/27/2012 9:42:05 PM)

Nah, you got off lucky. And are in decent shape. You still should win the game. It just might be a little more interesting for the rest of us for a bit longer.[;)] You are just going to have to redirect your focus for the next half year.

I never split my Allied carriers into separate TFs. Never. One need only read these AARs to see how many times they have reacted and separated. I learned this the hard way myself. The coordination penalty is not severe and it is easier to bitch over lousy coordination than about sunk carriers...

Two things I have learned as an Allied fanboy. China does not matter as much as you think and the Allied player has to screw up way more than you just did to have any chance of blowing the war. Keep grinding, I am enjoying both AARs. Both you and the Greyboy are playing good games.



Q-Ball -> RE: Defeat (12/28/2012 4:12:04 AM)

2/10/43:

As it happened, I was saved by proximity to Australia, which wasn't entirely unplanned.

NORTH CAROLINA and PRINCE OF WALES were goners, so we just left them behind to soak attacks; they sank.

Everyone else, though, made it to Townsville. Greyjoy prudently stayed away during the daytime, which was wise; I have a ton of planes there. I have 50 or so on Night, including some Night Fighters, in case he tries a night raid, but there's alot of flak there, so that could be costly for him. Between mines and PTs, a bombardment would be suicide. So we should be OK.

Butcher's Bill:

We lost 2 Fast BBs (PoW, North Carolina), CV ENTERPRISE, and 2 CVEs. We also lost CL CLEVELAND, and CL TRENTON, plus a DD.

What bugs me is he lost nada, nothing, just KITAKAMI and a Sub, and some planes, but hardly a scratch

Still, we should be back in business by July; by then, I should have the damage repaired, have Hellcats, plus more CVs, and be able to make a better show.

Next Steps:

Obviously, this sets back the planned March/April invasions until later in the summer. I think I will lose 3 months, but that's it; I should be stronger by then, with the new CVs and CVLs coming online

In the meantime, all the damaged ships are heading to the West Coast to get patched up. The BBs may not be done in 3 months, but the CVs will be.

[image]local://upfiles/6931/8A79187D4A954A1E83A6D1F87C299E54.jpg[/image]



goran007 -> RE: Defeat (12/28/2012 10:08:53 AM)

Hi m8, how come area wasn't flooded with your subs? Just one turn of extra warning that KB is near would have been enough for u to good chance of aborting operation and retreat in order. In the same time GJ would have had a nasty choice of follow or not to follow in your LB cap...?

Strange that GJ reacted to your move and he had million subs there, he did every thing he possibly could and did it great, really good play by him.






crsutton -> RE: Defeat (12/28/2012 4:53:34 PM)

Yes, Lex and Saratoga are total bitches to repair. They repair just like battlewagons and take forever. Of course they can take a good pounding too...

Considering how lopsided it was, you came out of it just fine. Nothing more than a speedbump.[;)]



JohnDillworth -> RE: Defeat (12/28/2012 5:36:44 PM)

quote:

Yes, Lex and Saratoga are total bitches to repair. They repair just like battlewagons and take forever. Of course they can take a good pounding too...

Considering how lopsided it was, you came out of it just fine. Nothing more than a speedbump.


You have a lot of hardware that needs repair. The KB has to reload so you might have just a bit of time to move these assets out of Indian country. Don't forget CapeTown has a pretty good drydock



PaxMondo -> RE: Defeat (12/28/2012 11:04:46 PM)

Well, as big a disaster that it could have been, your losses were fairly light with regards to ships.  CV reaction is one of the biggest unknowns in the game ... just have to be so careful anytime you are near any islands, and with all of those subs in the area ... he played that pretty good.



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