RE: Dam Breaks (Full Version)

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Capt. Harlock -> RE: Dam Breaks (10/5/2012 8:36:15 PM)

quote:

Holy cow! No way any Allied player can let a carrier sink and look himself in the mirror ever again. Hugely bad karma. No matter what it takes you've got to try to save Formidable. No matter what it costs. Brace up, man! Do your duty!


It does seem a bit "gamey".



Canoerebel -> RE: Dam Breaks (10/5/2012 8:42:22 PM)

If it's to the point that it absolutely cannot be tolerated, keep her in Dutch as long as possible, pump out as much as you can before you absolutely have to send her, and then set her to cruise and give her a good captain so that she has the best chance possible. Then, if she goes down, at least you can look yerself in the mirror in the morning.



Q-Ball -> RE: Dam Breaks (10/5/2012 8:49:19 PM)

It's a weird problem.......it goes against the grain to actually want a ship dead, but looking at it rationally:

--I can't get it to San Fran, and below 50% damage which is necessary for withdrawl, in 60 days

--Thus, it will cost me 65 PPs a day before I can finish repairs to a sub-50% level

--It's worth 175 VPs; less than a USN CV, due to small airgroup capacity

--FORMIDABLE is not schedule to return until Feb 1945, at which point she isn't critical at all. So losing her doesn't hurt the war effort.

So, I unloaded all the planes, and sailed her to a known sub-infested area. If that doesn't work, I'll crank up the engines, and see if she founders

I feel strange about it; this is the first time that I get a ship sunk on purpose, but that's the rules around PPs, and I would rather lose 175 VPs than 100s or 1000s of PPs.

PS: I don't think it's gamey; it doesn't hurt GJ at all, I mean he was trying to sink her in the first place. It's just a function of the withdrawl rules, which can be a little screwy. If it was stock WITP way back when, when you could pick the CV to withdraw, sure...I would have definitely saved her.



KenchiSulla -> RE: Dam Breaks (10/5/2012 9:06:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock


It does seem a bit "gamey".


It is a simple act of balancing a game effect. The game doesn't let you use an infantry division in the pacific area because you have a severely damaged ship in San Francisco that you can't withdraw..

It hurts, but it is just the way it is...



zuluhour -> RE: Dam Breaks (10/5/2012 10:22:29 PM)

I think you should be able to scuttle anytime. Graf Spee?



JeffroK -> RE: Dam Breaks (10/5/2012 10:42:01 PM)

I dont think its right to "Kamikaze" any such damaged vessel.

But would have no problem if you attempted to return to SF and had to scuttle it when flot damage reached 90 (pick any figure you want)

Few Navies waited for ships to sink, managing a proper evacuation of crews was considered as imortant as the ship itself.

Even Bismark was scuttled when flot damage reached 99!



zuluhour -> RE: Dam Breaks (10/6/2012 12:11:46 AM)

I have to add in the BigBabes there are many smaller vessels which just are not going to reach safety, would not the COs choose to scuttle before they fell into axis hands?



PaxMondo -> RE: Dam Breaks (10/6/2012 12:13:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

It's a weird problem.......it goes against the grain to actually want a ship dead, but looking at it rationally:

--I can't get it to San Fran, and below 50% damage which is necessary for withdrawl, in 60 days

--Thus, it will cost me 65 PPs a day before I can finish repairs to a sub-50% level

--It's worth 175 VPs; less than a USN CV, due to small airgroup capacity

--FORMIDABLE is not schedule to return until Feb 1945, at which point she isn't critical at all. So losing her doesn't hurt the war effort.

So, I unloaded all the planes, and sailed her to a known sub-infested area. If that doesn't work, I'll crank up the engines, and see if she founders

I feel strange about it; this is the first time that I get a ship sunk on purpose, but that's the rules around PPs, and I would rather lose 175 VPs than 100s or 1000s of PPs.

PS: I don't think it's gamey; it doesn't hurt GJ at all, I mean he was trying to sink her in the first place. It's just a function of the withdrawl rules, which can be a little screwy. If it was stock WITP way back when, when you could pick the CV to withdraw, sure...I would have definitely saved her.

+1

Its a game artifact.

I agtee with Jeff, would be nice to be able to scuttle at any time, this would alleviate this issue. OTOH, I'll bet people would accidently scuttle ships and be sending saves to Michael to return their ship if that was available and drive him crazy.



Chernobyl -> RE: Dam Breaks (10/9/2012 12:37:19 AM)

Gameplay question: I notice you split your massive CV fleet into three groups. Could you go over the logic for this?

I notice sometimes when I send bombers to attack a fleet they sometimes attack the WRONG fleet (e.g. two destroyers instead of the battleship group). Is it a good idea to have one or more 'decoy' fleets in the same hex as your carriers (or in a nearby hex)? It would be awesome if 500+ attack aircraft wasted their ordinance on a couple of my destroyers.

What other considerations do you take into account when dividing fleets?



Saros -> RE: Dam Breaks (10/9/2012 1:25:43 AM)

There are two main reasons. Firstly any task force over 15 ships suffers various penalties. Secondly Task forces suffer co-ordination penalties to airstrikes if the number of planes is over a certain number dependent upon the year. For the allies I think its 150 planes in 1942 increasing by 50 each year. IJN starts at 250? (I think?).

In 1942 the optimum task force grouping for allies is 2 fleet CV's. + escorts. (I try for a fast BB, 2 CA and a minimum of 8 DD's.) 1943 you can add a CVL or two depending on the fleet CV sizing and 1944 you can run 3 fleet CV's plus a CVL.

Finally air strikes target hexes (and pick targets in that hex based on detection and the VP's of the ships present) not individual TF's so more task forces doesn't mean a higher chance of wasted strikes.



Schlemiel -> RE: Dam Breaks (10/10/2012 6:24:50 PM)

You wouldn't necessarily need to reach San Francisco to send Formidible home. My guess is Seattle has hit the port level 7 required for a west coast city to allow ships to withdraw already (ports on the west coast and India and maybe Australia only need to hit port level 7 to allow withdrawl, and any level 9 port can as well). I do get annoyed when you can't withdraw a ship from Pearl Harbor though: so close and yet so far.

If it were me, I'd probably stop in Dutch Harbor for a week or two to reduce the minor flood and systems damage, then make for Seattle. I think there's a good chance you would reach Seattle as fast due to faster cruise speed from pumping out that water, and 20 days of critical repair might get you below the 50% line. Might even provide you an opportunity to get a shot at a few more subs if you could flood the area with asw.



JocMeister -> RE: Dam Breaks (10/10/2012 7:10:35 PM)

But even if he manages to get her to a safe port she canīt be withdrawn until the damage is fixed? So this might end up costing thousands of PPs unless he sucide her.



Grfin Zeppelin -> RE: Dam Breaks (10/10/2012 11:56:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

But even if he manages to get her to a safe port she canīt be withdrawn until the damage is fixed? So this might end up costing thousands of PPs unless he sucide her.

Suicide her sounds so...negative. Show the Japs your willingness to fight and raid Tokyo harbor. This will surely lift the spirits on the home front.



Chernobyl -> RE: Dam Breaks (10/11/2012 3:25:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Saros

Finally air strikes target hexes (and pick targets in that hex based on detection and the VP's of the ships present) not individual TF's so more task forces doesn't mean a higher chance of wasted strikes.



Alright so air strikes are intelligent enough to generally attack the CVs no matter what you do or how you configure your fleets. Good to know.



jmalter -> RE: Dam Breaks (10/11/2012 10:00:55 PM)

hi Q-ball,

wrt your question in post #205, look at the lower left of the Rangoon or Tsuyung base screens, it'll tell you if the Burma Road is open/closed.



Q-Ball -> RE: Dam Breaks (10/12/2012 3:54:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

hi Q-ball,

wrt your question in post #205, look at the lower left of the Rangoon or Tsuyung base screens, it'll tell you if the Burma Road is open/closed.


Thanks for the advice on this! I've been playing this engine since UV came out in 2004, still learning new things....

July 1, 1942:

HMS Formidable:

I forgot to set the ship to DIRECT and ABSOLUTE settings, so she returned to Dutch. I corrected that, and sent her to her full-speed doom to the west. Still feels wrong, but it's what the game engine makes you do.

I also found a possible bug: I unloaded Formidable's airgroups in Dutch, expecting to have to pick them up via AK. I was able to fly them to Kodiak! This is despite the fact that Dutch has no airstrip, only a seaplane base........I suppose it's pretty minor, as I was not able to fly missions from Dutch, just staging. Anyway, saved the planes.

Back on Track:

Otherwise, the only significant event is that I am back playing, after a camping trip, computer implosion, and difficulties re-loading the game.




JeffroK -> RE: Dam Breaks (10/12/2012 4:46:28 AM)

I see the flight out of DH as the game acknowleding the myriad of places where aircraft could land and take off again.

However DH probably hasnt got enough space to land a helicopter!! (Back in 1942 that is)

PS. You shouldnt take your PC camping, doesnt make good firewood, cant use as an anchor, kids use it as a Frisbee.....



jmalter -> RE: Dam Breaks (10/12/2012 6:17:28 AM)

heh, that Dutch harbor airbase must have some special ice on it, it'll build up to 3(0) sometime around 1954.

wrt to flight ops from a (0) airbase, i just noticed a similar thing in my game. i've been using Oak Harbor (2 jets NW of Seattle) as a training base for PV-1 Ventura sqns since like forever, no ops-losses, decent training, no probs. 'cept i just discovered that it's still a 0(7) airbase, & the USAAF baseforce i sent there awhile back is still in strat-mode, wtf?

i would expect that if you landed planes at a lvl-0 airbase, you could prob'ly fly them out again if it had some supply, & the planes were undamaged. but running any ops (even training) from a lvl-0 w/ no airsupport should put all the planes into maintenance-mode rather quickly, ntm heavy ops-losses.



veji1 -> RE: Dam Breaks (10/12/2012 10:16:08 AM)

This whole Formidable business just feels very wrong. In a sense one could argue that by risking an asset that was going to be withdrawn soon you took the risk willingly. The fact that you can't withdraw a ship that is damaged makes sense, it is being withdrawn to be used somewhere else. The RN plans in the Med are suffering a real setback because of your operation and the Axis is freely resupplying Tripoli because of it one could say (exaggerating of course).

This game feature is probably there to make you avoid suicidal or extremely risky operations with ships to be witdrawn.

I think you should bite the bullet and use it to emulate a trust breakdown or whatever between brits and US in the pacific theater...

Anyway it is not up to me to decide of course and if Greyjoy is OK with it be my guest, but I would talk about it with him to clear it up. In the end wou risked an asset that you perceived as of low value only to be bitten in the ass by the political ramifications of its being torpedoed..

So up to you but I would check it with Greyjoy.



obvert -> RE: Dam Breaks (10/12/2012 11:26:45 AM)

It may feel wrong, but every player should be able to decide when and where to run their own ships into a reef or fill their hull with explosives and light a match. You do this in many other ways for tactical and strategic purposes throughout the game. People run subs into base hexes all of the time, knowing this is the most vulnerable spot to put them. etc, etc.

A much more interesting conversation would be all of the ways he could send this ship under within the game framework. Too bad icebergs aren't modeled! [:D]

PS - Amazing those planes flew from Dutch. Huh. I wonder if this works from other dot bases? Hmmmm.



PaxMondo -> RE: Dam Breaks (10/12/2012 12:35:36 PM)

It does, but if you have a plane suffer a maintenance issue there and you have no AV support it will be stuck until you do.  That means a squadron fragment left in limbo with all of the issues that it creates.  I do this all the time when having to move groups around, but I make sure that I have an AVD or something like that in the area to address a fragment.

Coming off of a CV, groups are usually in good shape and you don't take op losses if they haven't been in battle recently.



Sardaukar -> RE: Dam Breaks (10/12/2012 1:48:57 PM)

Wasn't one feature that you could withdraw a ship no matter what damage if getting it off-map? I vaguely remember that sort of thing.



Banzan -> RE: Dam Breaks (10/12/2012 3:51:48 PM)

Yes, and if it got a return date, it would be delayed by the needed repair time. But getting it off-map would already cost ****loads of APs as its a very long travel from there...
I always try not to use ships with a withdraw date below 100+ days, because a single sub can ruin your day very easy. I only play against the "AI", so i don't sucide ships but live with it. But Q-Ball is doing it right, i wouldn't play that style against a human player, too, as APs are too important there.



veji1 -> RE: Dam Breaks (10/12/2012 4:15:19 PM)

Well I am not in this game anyway, but the way I see it an admiralty asking for the Formidable back would have been pretty clear with the USN that that operation better be super duper important and low risk and they would have been pretty incensed. the right move would have been to have the game force the player to withdraw another carrier while the Formidable repairs... since it ain't happening...

I don't know. I think he should talk about it with Greyjoy. The fair solution might be to indee sink the boat to avoid massive loss of PP but in exchange commit to parking one UK CV for 6 months or 1 year in the WC to emulate the fact that it would have had to go back to Europe in replacement.



khyberbill -> RE: Dam Breaks (10/12/2012 5:52:46 PM)

quote:

but the way I see it an admiralty asking for the Formidable back would have been pretty clear with the USN that that operation better be super duper important and low risk and they would have been pretty incensed


I disagree. The game engine, warts and all, is as it is and we all have to play with the same engine and also to compensate for the warts. I lose British ships that are due to be withdrawn all the time. I can not imagine stopping play and discussing with my foe each time whether my operation was too risky for the British ships. The designers knew that ships due to be withdrawn might be lost prior to withdrawal date and did not impose a penalty for this action, only if the ship is not withdrawn.



artuitus_slith -> RE: Dam Breaks (10/12/2012 6:33:46 PM)

I think this is one area the original Witp had an edge. Instead of listing specific ships to be withdrawn i liked the old 'withdraw 1 cv, 1 ca, 2 dd'. This allowed some flexibility to the allies. To make it more 'realistic' maybe impose a conditional rule, such as 'ship must have less than 20 combined Flt/sys/eng damage to be withdrawn, and must be at an off map base'. Of course this is where the realism/historical debate come in. Ships are now withdrawn according to history, however since nothing in this game past pre-turn 1 conditions is actually historical, I would have no problem with being able to pick/choose which ships to send out. In the case that the player has no ships left floating of the class to be withdrawn, something like 10xVP political point penalty should be implemented. Even in the context of current withdrawals I think some PP cost should be assessed for losing ships that are due withdrawal.



SqzMyLemon -> RE: Dam Breaks (10/12/2012 6:37:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

The designers knew that ships due to be withdrawn might be lost prior to withdrawal date and did not impose a penalty for this action, only if the ship is not withdrawn.


This sums it up nicely. The old Avalon Hill wargame "Victory in the Pacific" had it right in my opinion. If a ship required to withdraw was sunk, a ship of equal value had to removed instead. I believe this was an oversight by the developers of WitPAE. Something similiar in AE would have prevented players from purposely sacrificing ships that are due to withdraw, or risk some kind of penalty.

Along these lines, much "ahistorical" play could have been reduced or eliminated by PP penalties for acting too out of whack with the times. Old school boardgames have done this for decades to keep things "real" and it's a shame it wasn't picked up on. For example, a player wants to invade India with Japan, then fork over 5000 PP's and have at it.

However, the game doesn't penalize this type of behavior, so Q-Ball, suicide the darn ship and don't sweat it. Sh$t happens in virtual war. [8D]



Capt. Harlock -> RE: Dam Breaks (10/12/2012 8:23:04 PM)

quote:

The RN plans in the Med are suffering a real setback because of your operation and the Axis is freely resupplying Tripoli because of it one could say (exaggerating of course).


Nah. IRL the Formidable didn't return to the Med until October, and the RN knew better than to risk its carriers anywhere near Tripoli until after Operation Torch in November.



Q-Ball -> China! (10/12/2012 10:50:27 PM)

July 6, 1942:

Wow, alot of debate here on FORMIDABLE. I personally don't think it's gamey, or requires a check with opponent. It's a quirk of the game, and it doesn't hurt the Japanese.

Nevertheless, I kind of split the difference in the end. I am sailing her at Full Speed toward Seattle, without escort. If she makes it, I'll repair and send her back; if not, c'est la guerre. I think this is a good solution.

The entire map is quiet right now, with the exception of China.

China Update:

The Japanese continue to march on Sinning, which should fall easily. That will be it for the north, and no doubt I can expect an attack toward the south.

I am still shoveling supplies into Tsuyung; I hope Greyjoy doesn't start bombing Paotong/Kunming/Tsuyung, if so I can't fly the hump, and another supply source will be gone. Then, I'll be down to the 500 or so LI that I still have; 500 supplies a turn isn't anywhere near enough to feed the Chinese Armies, let alone actually fight.

In the meantime, we did repulse a Japanese crossing around Chihkiang; see below. This is a loser for me in the long-run, as I am out of supplies here, but we can hope to hold as long as possible.



[image]local://upfiles/6931/A520256C4D664C569B20239753BC4266.jpg[/image]



SqzMyLemon -> RE: China! (10/12/2012 11:26:32 PM)

I learned my lesson about conducting opposed river crossings in China. I suffered massive losses and avoid any such type operations like the plague. I'd rather spend two months moving thru rough terrain to flank a river position then try an assault.



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