Implausible AI Air Superstacks (Full Version)

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sandman2575 -> Implausible AI Air Superstacks (8/15/2012 5:22:59 AM)

This kind of thing happens a bit too frequently. I'm all for having 'interception', but the entire Soviet air force shouldn't be able to intercept you at the same time. I'm exaggerating...but only slightly.

The air-interception mechanic, at least for the AI, is one of the few aspects of DC that seems genuinely 'gamey' to me. I don't know if there needs to be more rolls for interception / initiative 'checks' or what have you, but it just should not be possible for this many airgroups to be intercepting at the same time in the same location.

This is 770 Soviet aircraft.

(sorry for the enormous pic -- not sure how to scale down)


[image]local://upfiles/32780/DD99CD2249A34FEC9A0B8498E024421B.jpg[/image]



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Implausible AI Air Superstacks (8/15/2012 2:56:50 PM)

+1

It seems as though the AI interception only happens occasionally (about once per turn on average) but when it does happen, every unit within range is involved.

It's actually a very effective tactic, but certainly 'gamey' and a-historical.



sandman2575 -> RE: Implausible AI Air Superstacks (8/16/2012 3:00:04 PM)

Can anything be done about this? It frankly kind of ruins the air game. I'm not saying the Luftwaffe should be invulnerable by any stretch (or Soviet AF for that matter). But the AI in this way creates 'no fly zones' of complete air superiority. It seems silly to essentially not be able to launch an airstrike for fear of losing 75% of your Kampfgeschwader. And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Germans, not the Russians, have pretty uncontested reign over the skies in this region during this period? I thought the Soviet AF only really became a threat in 1943 - ? Regardless, it would be nice if something could be done about this --



aspqrz02 -> RE: Implausible AI Air Superstacks (8/16/2012 3:22:31 PM)

Yes, the Germans outflew the Russians right to the end, on a Fighter to Fighter level.

Russian Pilots were crap. Poorly trained. Some, those who survived, became good but, even in the last year of the war, the Luftwaffe outperformed the Russians on an individual level ... of course, by then, numbers were telling.

One interesting fact to consider ... the Russians often couldn't beat the Germans, but they had access to High Octane fuel (Lend Lease) that enabled them to run away when they knew they were outmatched, and used this to great effect ... probably by this period.

The Germans could never match it because producing the 100+ Octane stuff chewed through feedstock like it was going out of fashion ... the 87 Octane stuff the Luftwaffe used was produced because it game the best crossover between quantity and quality.

Phil



Grotius -> RE: Implausible AI Air Superstacks (8/16/2012 4:16:56 PM)

I get this too: once (maybe twice) a turn, the entire Soviet Air Force seems to rise up to decimate one of my air attacks. The other 8 or 9 strikes go unopposed. After 16 turns or so, most of my air units are depleted.



sandman2575 -> RE: Implausible AI Air Superstacks (8/17/2012 3:28:11 AM)

*sigh*...now i'm just venting. love this game, but really hate that this keeps happening. and this time i even sent a Jagdgeschwader to escort.

835 Soviet aircraft vs. my 115. These are some absurdly crowded skies:









[image]local://upfiles/32780/D73A26C8A36E4AEA99EC0EFADB573EC9.jpg[/image]



aspqrz02 -> RE: Implausible AI Air Superstacks (8/17/2012 4:38:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius
I get this too: once (maybe twice) a turn, the entire Soviet Air Force seems to rise up to decimate one of my air attacks. The other 8 or 9 strikes go unopposed. After 16 turns or so, most of my air units are depleted.


You must be darned unlucky ... I have never seen anything like it ... and Soviet intereptions seem rare(ish) for me, too.

Phil



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Implausible AI Air Superstacks (8/17/2012 10:41:58 AM)

I get the same thing regularly. It needs fixing.

One short term option is to go into the Editor and remove all fighters for both sides.



Grotius -> RE: Implausible AI Air Superstacks (8/17/2012 5:02:39 PM)

Yeah, even if I escort my air strikes with 40 or more fighters, occasionally I'll get this enormous stack of AI interceptors that shreds everything I've got. It happens at least once every turn, so it seems like more than just bad luck. I'm playing on the "Normal" AI.

Redmarkus, I'm half-tempted to edit out fighters. But can I edit a game that's on turn 20 or so? I have never used the editor, so I have no idea how it works.



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Implausible AI Air Superstacks (8/17/2012 5:24:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

Yeah, even if I escort my air strikes with 40 or more fighters, occasionally I'll get this enormous stack of AI interceptors that shreds everything I've got. It happens at least once every turn, so it seems like more than just bad luck. I'm playing on the "Normal" AI.

Redmarkus, I'm half-tempted to edit out fighters. But can I edit a game that's on turn 20 or so? I have never used the editor, so I have no idea how it works.


Not sure about editing a game in progress.

If you don't mind starting over let me know which scenario you are playing and I can edit it for you.



Grotius -> RE: Implausible AI Air Superstacks (8/18/2012 1:12:26 AM)

Nah, it's okay, I don't want to restart. I'm well into August '42 now. Thanks for the offer, though. If I do restart, I'll read up on the editor. I'm interested in it anyway.



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Implausible AI Air Superstacks (8/18/2012 8:01:34 AM)

No worries. Lots of people here to help guide you through the main parts of the Editor, although it still holds many mysteries...



stormbringer3 -> RE: Implausible AI Air Superstacks (8/18/2012 9:15:44 PM)

I've had this happen to me also. If possible, perhaps Vic could code the AI so that it will have a realistic intercept sortie limit per combat.

I don't want to start a new thread but I have an air question. I'm in the beginning of the Campaign so I've only used fighters for escort and recon. If I later want to have fighters available for interception logic tells me that I can't use them for escort or recon that turn. Is that correct?
Thanks.



Appren -> RE: Implausible AI Air Superstacks (8/19/2012 7:08:25 AM)

Just confirming the experience of others here, the super intercept is very annoying.



Vic -> RE: Implausible AI Air Superstacks (8/21/2012 1:28:48 PM)

Hi all,

I just rechecked the algorithms for interception (human and AI alike) and the comments here are grounded!

I am going to rewrite this algorithm for v1.03. At the moment a d100 dice throw result is used for all possible interceptors involved. This results often in either none, or few intercepts, or really a lot in the case of a really good dice throw for the intercepting side. I will adjust this to a d100 dice throw for each unit.

Thanks for taking the time to point this out!

With all your help we are making the game better one step at a time :)

best,
Vic



sandman2575 -> RE: Implausible AI Air Superstacks (8/21/2012 8:50:57 PM)

Great news -- thanks Vic.

Note that some *bombers* seem to be intercepting as well -- as in the 2nd screenshot I posted, the first counter on the Soviet intercept side is "Bomb".

I've been assuming these are fighter-bombers? Or multi-role fighters that can serve a close-support function -- Airacobras??

Personally, I'd love it if just pure fighters could intercept, for game purposes even if not strictly historical. (Did Bf-110s serve an intercept role?? I don't know, but it seems hard to believe.) In short, *anything* to limit the possibility of these AI Superstacks of Aeronautic Death....!



gravyface_ -> RE: Implausible AI Air Superstacks (8/21/2012 11:48:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sandman2575

Great news -- thanks Vic.

Note that some *bombers* seem to be intercepting as well -- as in the 2nd screenshot I posted, the first counter on the Soviet intercept side is "Bomb".

I've been assuming these are fighter-bombers? Or multi-role fighters that can serve a close-support function -- Airacobras??

Personally, I'd love it if just pure fighters could intercept, for game purposes even if not strictly historical. (Did Bf-110s serve an intercept role?? I don't know, but it seems hard to believe.) In short, *anything* to limit the possibility of these AI Superstacks of Aeronautic Death....!


I think you could have both: do a die roll to see if any fighters intercept. If none, roll again to see if any fighter-bombers are available to intercept. Think that would be pretty realistic, especially at critical junctions in a major offensive or battle and there's no reason why a P39 Air Cobra, P40 Warhawk or FW-190F, Junkers 88 (made an excellent night bomber interceptor in France), etc. could be scrambled to intercept a bomber formation.



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