What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? Now allowed for Oloren! (Full Version)

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terje439 -> What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? Now allowed for Oloren! (8/31/2012 10:34:53 AM)

So, once more a battle between Brad and myself. This time around we will use the "shortened" large scenario and random weather, so no more counting the turns untill mud for me I guess. That is a scary thought.

If you are still reading Brad, get out!!!



Well, I've lost both games against Brad, so I do not expect miracles to happen this time around either.
First a checklist for myself;
-make sure I check the GERMAN pools, not the AXIS one
-disband alot more heavy guns and other stuff early on
-make more and smaller pockets
-figure out something, anything, to do during Blizzard. I prefer NOT to lose 20 divisions this time around...
-from typing this; manage to keep the d and f keys appart seems to be a biggie.


Plans.
Guess every military operations should have one of these.
Hmm, it is in another game alltogether that I just pushed the Brits out of the Middle East, so a drive north through Caucasus is out I suppose. Nor am I allowed to attack from Norway...
Oh well, drive at Moscow then I suppose.

Nah, I actually have a few ideas, wether they are good or not we shall see, but let us say that I do not intend to wither away at the gates of Leningrad this time around. I hope...for the first year the main focus will be destuction of the USSR forces, not some fixed locations. I think I need to force Brad to deploy his freshly "bought" units at the front, not allow him time to build them up properly.
Secondly, I will pay a bigger attention to the building of forts earlier on, as to not having to rush them and ending up with half a line.
Also, I will NOT deploy panzers in the mountains this time around [:D]


Hmm I think I should start the game and have alook about now [:)]
As always, comments are welcome, although not always followed [:D]

Terje



Walloc -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (8/31/2012 10:56:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439
-disband alot more heavy guns and other stuff early on

Terje


U could u keep the those gun battalions in OKH until situasion with high fort/siege value occures and then cycle them in. Just rememeber to put them back. Espcially there is no need to lose these high arm guns to blizzard.

Kind regards,

Rasmus



Blind Sniper -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (8/31/2012 11:21:52 AM)

Hello Terje439,

quote:

-disband alot more heavy guns and other stuff early on

Why?

Are you planning to do the Lvov pocket or using the HQ buildup chain?
I'm just asking because I'd love to see a game without game flaw abuse [:D]

Good luck!



terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (8/31/2012 12:04:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blind Sniper

Hello Terje439,

quote:

-disband alot more heavy guns and other stuff early on

Why?

Are you planning to do the Lvov pocket or using the HQ buildup chain?
I'm just asking because I'd love to see a game without game flaw abuse [:D]

Good luck!



Because I lacked armaments more or less the last two years in the last game [:D]
It ended up with the Lvov pocket...not shocking I suppose hehe.


Terje



terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (8/31/2012 12:05:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc


quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439
-disband alot more heavy guns and other stuff early on

Terje


U could u keep the those gun battalions in OKH until situasion with high fort/siege value occures and then cycle them in. Just rememeber to put them back. Espcially there is no need to lose these high arm guns to blizzard.

Kind regards,

Rasmus


Yeah, ended up placing them on 50% TOE for now.

Terje



terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (8/31/2012 12:17:50 PM)

Turn 1

Newsflash!!
Digital Adolf has informed us that the USSR have massed hordes of military units on our border, and we had to act fast, so a DoW has been issued on the USSR!!!
Generals have been told to drive deep, however some units have been told that they are not needed on full strength anymore. Surely some of this must be mere confusion. We are certain however that the situation will grow clearer in a few months...

Overall
So, pockets in place, but how people manage to get the MP to take Riga on Turn 1 is beyond me. Atleast now, I think that doing the turn after a hard work week might not be the best option, but it could get interesting I guess.
Neither am I certain as to how many planes I should kill, but I feel ok with what we got.
Since turn 1 (atleast for me) is more a turn of manouvering, we only made 46 attacks this turn, and scored the following;
-23 retreats
-4 routs
-6 shatters
-13 surrenders
No holds this time, which is nice, although I had hoped some of the retreats should be routs. Oh well.

Losses
USSR : 70.000 troops, 1.767 guns, 499 AFVs, 2.764 AC.
Axis : 3.000 troops, 82 guns, 16 AFVs, 137 AC.

USSR troops destroyed
13 fortified zones, 1 sapper battalion, 1 AA battalion, 3 NKVD border regiments, 1 PVO AA regiment, 1 BM howitzer regiment, 3 corps artillery regiments, 1 howitzer regiment and 1 Rifle Division.

USSR units in pockets
124 units are inside pockets, this does however include HQs/Airfields

German pools
Manpower : 0
Vehicles : 250.169
Armaments : 100.000 hey hey!!
Hiwi : 0

Thoughts
Not sure all the pockets will hold, in fact I severly doubt it to be honest.

To do
Find the "re-combine" button to get those two divisions fixed again.

Done
All heavy artillery units are set to 50% TOE, so is the bicycle unit which I was not allowed to disband this turn. AA guns are set to 75%, not sure if I should keep them at 100 or drop them to 50, so went in between...

Maps
Well since Gimp and I still do not see eye to eye, I'll keep using Paint, so a few screenshots this time around.



terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (8/31/2012 12:18:16 PM)

North



[image]local://upfiles/11504/C55337CCBBDA4AFAA3BCDBE9F1DC3212.jpg[/image]



terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (8/31/2012 12:18:39 PM)

Not THAT far north



[image]local://upfiles/11504/037FA9E2541A466BB947A07EB7746BF5.jpg[/image]



terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (8/31/2012 12:19:01 PM)

Center-ish



[image]local://upfiles/11504/80DCA48B6B0D424EA243FD0179E3AC4B.jpg[/image]



terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (8/31/2012 12:19:20 PM)

South



[image]local://upfiles/11504/2C40AA5A6D9B43478876343D7D5C3BD8.jpg[/image]



Walloc -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (8/31/2012 2:12:08 PM)

Terje,

Do u want some devil is in the detail comments?
Its seriously nitpicking but at stuff that makes a difference.

Kind regards,

Rasmus



terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (8/31/2012 2:58:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc

Terje,

Do u want some devil is in the detail comments?
Its seriously nitpicking but at stuff that makes a difference.

Kind regards,

Rasmus


Sure, fire away [:)]

Terje



Walloc -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (8/31/2012 3:41:49 PM)

Has to do with pocket making. I know some can see such issue on the fly(while making movement) for others it might be an idea to hold back one unit espcially when using 2 pz corps. So one can look at situasion after other moves and then use the last unit to plug holes.

The yellow arrows is moves SU side can make as of now and then the yellow hexagons is then switches of hexes cuz of no ZoC.

Red arrow is where if german units would have moved u could effectivly blocked pocket openings.


In case of this picture. If the Reg just had been 1 hex higher it would have required that the SU side should launch 2 succesfull attack on the reg to open the pocket. Now its just a question of making a no brain move. With the supprise turn penalties u can close the Lvov pocket more of less if u just make sure u have units that overlap so hexes cant be swicthed with ZoC effects alone. some times its better to have that effect more than switching hexes by moving around. Since SU MP are so low on turn 1.

The mot div wouldnt necesarrily have had the MP to move one more hex but in effect that unit moved 1 hex to east would also have made the opening there almost impossible depending on MP rolls. In case of the reg its one hex less so i assume it would have had the MPs.

Another idea is as u move ur units in cases like this. Where u know approximately the ending up position of units. U can leave the units with the last 3-5 MPs unused. Move the next unit before using the last MPs. Then u would end the move up with a better overview near end of moves on which units to move 1 hex left, right, up or down to shut the door sorta speak and still have the MP left on units to make those small adjustments. U cant always do this but some times it can have its merits.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

[image]local://upfiles/22745/B5303BA7996949E3BFD6D5F598A7BE2C.jpg[/image]



Walloc -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (8/31/2012 3:46:53 PM)

These russian moves are no quite as obvious as the one in above example. Non the less. I understand why u moved the west most pz div all down south near to other and swicthing hexes. Is just in the case of turn 1 with so few MPs units nearly never can move 2 enemy hexes. So shutting the door by removing the use of swicth hexes with ZoCs is more importand than creating a large buffer zone by moving the "inner" pz div on the western most moves. Remember that if he is isolated, hexes not in his Zoc will switch back too u. So the switch that, that pz div does isnt really needed.


[image]local://upfiles/22745/9DCA66854E054C24A049703CD986EC62.jpg[/image]



Walloc -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (8/31/2012 4:03:57 PM)

Since u can always move 1 hex. The key is really here do i gain any thing by being all that close to the enemy. Chance for him to move 1 hex and then another 1 hex in Enemy Zoc to Zoc is close to impossible on turn one. So staying 1 hex away actually does more good in these partciular cases if that stop him from doing ZoC hex conversions.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

[image]local://upfiles/22745/F30A31BF7DD6407E9551CE11E8F5B04C.jpg[/image]



terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (8/31/2012 5:48:03 PM)

Great help here, and a few things I did not consider, great stuff. Thank you [:)]
Some of the moves you would have prefered to have happened were unfortunately never an option due to me attacking from the "wrong" direction in some cases, hence pushing the USSR defenders a completely wrong way.
Well, we live we learn....I hope, if not this AAR too will end preematurely [;)]

Once more, thanks for that detailed information! [&o]

Terje



hfarrish -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (8/31/2012 8:21:08 PM)


I would be very careful about leaving panzers so far out and exposed like the one in the above example - dangerous even early war in its own right but really can ruin you with random weather - you are virtually guaranteed to have mud on T3 or T4 and if he fights forward he can easily encircle those guys on the mud turn and destroy them the next turn.



terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/1/2012 8:39:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish


I would be very careful about leaving panzers so far out and exposed like the one in the above example - dangerous even early war in its own right but really can ruin you with random weather - you are virtually guaranteed to have mud on T3 or T4 and if he fights forward he can easily encircle those guys on the mud turn and destroy them the next turn.


Yikes, mud strikes that early? Now I am scared as well as somewhat baffled as to which gameplan to follow...Hmm still, I need to push, but I THINK I took heed of your advice and made sure my panzers cannot easily be surrounded this turn.
Again, thanks for the heads up! [&o]


Terje



terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/1/2012 8:47:42 AM)

Turn 2

Overall
As Walloc pointed out, most of my pockets could be and was broken. So, we reseal them, trying to keep Walloc's words in mind, and I think I did ok this turn.
My recon flights shows Oloren allready starting to form some defences at the Dnepr around Cherkassy and Kiev. Speed is essential I think, yet there are scores of Soviet troops to handle as well.
Due to the reopening of some of the pockets, I did not make as many attacks as I would have wanted to, yet we did make a total of 69, scoring 6 helds [:@], 37 retreats, 1 shatter, 10 routs and 15 surrenders.

USSR units pocketed at start of turn
51, including HQs/Airfields

USSR units pocketed at end of turn
108 units, 1 which is likely to reach safety.

Units destroyed
7 fortified zones, 3 NKVD border regiments, 3 PVO AA regiments, 1 Corps artillery regiment, 1 Cavalry Division, 5 Rifle divisions, 1 Motorized Division.

Losses
USSR : 133.000 troops, 2.281 guns, 462 AFVs, 455 AC.
Axis : 24.000 troops, 132 guns, 107 AFVs (KNEW I should not have made that last attack...), 104 AC.

German pools
Manpower : 101
Vehicles : 207.186
Armaments : 100.161
Hiwi : 4.012

Units disbanded
The Bicycle Scout Regiment

Things to do
-keep destroying USSR units
-push west
-continue to swear at the Rumanian units movement rate...

Question
Should I let Guderian take command of OKH immediately?

Requests
Yes, I do take them [:)]
So, if there is anything in peculiar you guys want to see, just ask.



terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/1/2012 8:48:08 AM)

Thule



[image]local://upfiles/11504/341C32B409D54B69BB51C2F287813BF6.jpg[/image]



terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/1/2012 8:48:35 AM)

Mere North



[image]local://upfiles/11504/D9DA74236B3641069B340A9E67F42F1B.jpg[/image]



terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/1/2012 8:49:04 AM)

Center-ish



[image]local://upfiles/11504/021DE40020444EBC8399FF6A0C527E6E.jpg[/image]



terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/1/2012 8:49:24 AM)

South



[image]local://upfiles/11504/6A1F6B6BC9AA4A0EA0F3F91B5EABFDF0.jpg[/image]



Disgruntled Veteran -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/1/2012 11:27:43 PM)

You take Riga by using the 2 panzer divs from XXXXI Corps, attach engineers to them, then drive north and do a hasty from both. Works everytime. In the outlandish case you get a hold,the higher morale tank div can fit in another hasty. If you dont take it the Russians can dig in and slow you tremendously.



bigbaba -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/2/2012 1:18:29 AM)

aye, you can get riga from east by the 2 panzerdivisions of the PG 4 after mot+ SS division clear a path and a river crossing for them. they will have enough MP for 3-4 hasty attacks and that should do it in turn 1.

and i see that you are not driving to pskov in the north? a mistake if you ask me. leningrad is taken out best via a direct assault with infantry of 16+18 army blowing holes for the PG 4. except your name is pelton. then you can do the right hook.[:)]

when compared with your first game you did a better job in turn 2 repairing a lot of self caused damage from turn 1. but you should concentrate your forces. they are spread throuout the map.

you should concentrate your infantry and armor more or my mentalo says me that he will be in berlin again in mid 44.[:D]

good luck terje.



terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/2/2012 6:46:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Disgruntled Veteran

You take Riga by using the 2 panzer divs from XXXXI Corps, attach engineers to them, then drive north and do a hasty from both. Works everytime. In the outlandish case you get a hold,the higher morale tank div can fit in another hasty. If you dont take it the Russians can dig in and slow you tremendously.


Guess it has to do with how I arrange my attacks, and thus which way the enemy retreats. I never seen to have the MP. Will have to play a few turn 1s against the AI I guess.
Thanks for the explanation [&o]


Terje



terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/2/2012 6:50:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

aye, you can get riga from east by the 2 panzerdivisions of the PG 4 after mot+ SS division clear a path and a river crossing for them. they will have enough MP for 3-4 hasty attacks and that should do it in turn 1.

and i see that you are not driving to pskov in the north? a mistake if you ask me. leningrad is taken out best via a direct assault with infantry of 16+18 army blowing holes for the PG 4. except your name is pelton. then you can do the right hook.[:)]

when compared with your first game you did a better job in turn 2 repairing a lot of self caused damage from turn 1. but you should concentrate your forces. they are spread throuout the map.

you should concentrate your infantry and armor more or my mentalo says me that he will be in berlin again in mid 44.[:D]

good luck terje.


I agree with what you say, yet when I had the chance to surround another unit, I decided to go for it north of Riga. The Panzers are being turned next turn. Well if (well, see below...)
Forces will be gathered as well, just me going all over the place in turns 1 and 2 to cause as much havoc as possible.
Well, I too think he will be in Berlin in -44 [:D]
Expect the Blizzard to kill me once more hehe.

Terje



terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/2/2012 6:59:14 AM)

Turn 3 aka AAARGH!!!

Overall
MUD.
Yes, I know I was warned about it, and yes, I did expect it, yet...ARGH!
With the mud arriving, and Brad placing his pocketed units just far enough east (mostly), the reduction of pockets did not go as quickly as desireable. Nevertheless we launched 87 attacks, scoring 2 helds, 37 retreats and 48 surrenders this turn.
The mud also prevented us from forming more pockets, so our panzers/mechs mostly remained more or less stationary.

USSR units pocketed at start of turn
97 including HQs/Airfields

USSR units pocketed at end of turn
39, of which one is likely to escape.

Losses
USSR : 368.000 troops, 5.061 guns, 3.102 AFVs, 91 AC.
Axis : 21.000 troops, 78 guns, 94 AFVs, 51 AC.

USSR units destroyed
10 tank divisions, 1 motorized division, 26 rifle divisions, 2 cavalry divisions, 3 mountain divisions, 3 AT artillery brigades, 3 motorcycle regiments, 1 corps artillery regiment, 3 PVO AA regiments, 5 NKVD border regiments, 5 fortified zones.

German pools
Manpower : 58
Vehicles : 206.346
Armaments : 100.217
Hiwi : 12.399

Generals
Guderian takes command over OKH, and for once I was quite pleased with the replacement brought to Guderians old unit (2nd Panzer Group), as Model arrived to take over command there.
I am now contemplating if Kesselring, von Kluge and Mannstein are the ones I should place at AGN/AGS/AGC. Thoughts?





[image]local://upfiles/11504/861C79F3F4DD42289D7EEDF886D32062.jpg[/image]



hfarrish -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/2/2012 12:16:42 PM)

I am a pure SHC guy so I don't know the various leader ratings for the Germans (I would imagine the guys you mention have extremely high ratings across the board), but I think you want high initiative/admin guys at the Army/Sov Front level whereas combat ratings are more important at the Korps/Sov Army level...



bigbaba -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/3/2012 12:32:16 AM)

just for you to remember that you should fly fuel to panzer formations before you move them terje. this way you get as much fuel as possible to the units. if you ask me one should use his level bombers only to fly fuel from turn 2 on with 0% AF attack, city attack, and ground attack and massivly reduced interdiction and ground support settings to get more bombers flying fuel around.

and keep your HQ and air bases directly on the repaired railroad to reduce usage of supply trucks.

one last point: i prefer to set ART, AT, rocket, AA, security units at 60% TOE right in turn 1 to save armament. i also set only moot. and armor formations at "refit" and everything else at "ready".

good luck.



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