RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (Full Version)

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Speedysteve -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/15/2012 1:54:18 PM)

OOB.

Moved ARM from the remaining Southern Cities west of the Dnepr, a couple of HI Facs from Mogilev and the Yak-6 and T-50 Fac's from LG.

Saper is doing a very good job on my AF's bnut conducted a few bombing raids and mass fighter sweeps taking down 250-300 SU fighters for 25ish Axis. Ok with this for now though as mine are trash planes. However, the downside to these raids is that I have a low readiness rate on my units overall on my AF's.

[image]local://upfiles/4211/0EB5BD01FC964D2AAF5EBF933FDA16F7.jpg[/image]



Speedysteve -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/16/2012 11:24:44 AM)

Turn 4.

End of SU Turn.

North:

The 3 units around Pskov were surrounded with no hope of rescue. I managed to counter-attack the 3rd Motorised Division forcing it to retreat.

I brought up reinforcements to the Luga Line and by the River Pola.

Frustrating at how slow the forts are building (or not). LG is still very weak and that's mainly to how much the South was decimated meaning reinforcements had to be sent south and that has a follow on effect meaning the north is weak and the centre is just about ok at present.

[image]local://upfiles/4211/722BD1F44C164899AB174A09BB8C86CA.jpg[/image]



Speedysteve -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/16/2012 9:05:18 PM)

Center:

Not a lot here.

Saper pushed further into the Land Bridge so I pulled back from the Dnepr and brought up further resrves to start to form a 3rd defensive line from Rzhev south.

[image]local://upfiles/4211/771E58F68FCF44AABB2A56B41CBB6C6B.jpg[/image]



Speedysteve -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/16/2012 9:09:12 PM)

South:

Saper pushed SE from Zhitomir towards Cherkassy.

As such I fall back to Kirovograd east.

Further reserves are brought upto the Dnepr. They're weak though.

[image]local://upfiles/4211/265832FFEA644CA39350A8AB9C906F4F.jpg[/image]



Speedysteve -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/16/2012 9:10:41 PM)

South big view:

[image]local://upfiles/4211/952E9F44987E48E9BD6F1F37FFE0813F.jpg[/image]



Speedysteve -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/16/2012 9:11:39 PM)

Losses:

[image]local://upfiles/4211/95DA388232CF4A88AE27DFE786C6CD8B.jpg[/image]



Speedysteve -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/16/2012 9:18:10 PM)

OOB:

Moved ARM and HI from Kremenchug, HI from Kirovograd, ARM from Gomel and some KV-1 Facs from LG.

Looking forward to the Corps HQ's disbanding and I can straighten out some C&C, assign decent leaders and sort SU's etc.

Some battle Stats. Saper made 83 attacks: 5 holds, 6 routs, 24 surrender and 48 retreats.

[image]local://upfiles/4211/A09D5D9B02404FC286E4C00857F52362.jpg[/image]



Speedysteve -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/17/2012 5:17:42 PM)

Turn 5.

End of SU turn.

Finland:

Usual fare up here. Lost 2 x Rifle Div's but formed a line in the far north and hope to hold this.

[image]local://upfiles/4211/82562FEDA52C4286B8302A3AF0F24C54.jpg[/image]



Speedysteve -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/17/2012 5:19:53 PM)

North:

The Luga line is reached.

I have no hope of holding LG now.

Just not been able to devote enough troops up here and not had enough tiem to dig in.

I'll do what I can to delay.

The 1 attack I launched pushed back a Rgt of the Totenkopf Fascists.

[image]local://upfiles/4211/299217AF72D04C7D951EC8F6796B9A12.jpg[/image]



Speedysteve -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/17/2012 5:22:39 PM)

Quiet in the VL region:

[image]local://upfiles/4211/9797E30634A74B0AAD762F23CC0906B8.jpg[/image]



Speedysteve -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/17/2012 5:25:23 PM)

Center:

Saper bludgeoned his way forward 40 miles.

I re-adjust and bring up a few more troops.

The C&C re-org is well underway here as 55 Corps HQ's disband. Reserve Front slots in north of Western Front.

[image]local://upfiles/4211/F5649855A44D49E3A68EA9782C673B2C.jpg[/image]



Speedysteve -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/17/2012 5:28:55 PM)

South:

The main area of focus here was at Zaporozhye.

I mis-judged how much fuel the Panzers could have and they shot forward occupying Zaporozhye on a raid (meaning I lose 4 x HI and 4 x ARM Facs). I do what I can by isolating 25th Motorised Division.

2 x Tk and 1 x Cav Division are cut off at Kirovograd.

Really not happy with the state of play thus far......not a lot I can do right now.

[image]local://upfiles/4211/96CE4795A8BB4A22AC37AED0DBF96173.jpg[/image]



Speedysteve -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/17/2012 5:30:19 PM)

Losses:

[image]local://upfiles/4211/4C55B94AE07948F8AB1699F5A3F7E412.jpg[/image]



Speedysteve -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/17/2012 5:41:53 PM)

OOB:

I evac'd the ARM from Dnepropetrovsk and the ARM and HI from Kerch.

A load of C&C work was done to straighten things out. I also assigned some leaders:

Reserve Front - MAR Semyon Timoshenko
Southern Front - GEN ARM Kirill Meretskov
23rd Army - GEN LT Nikolai Vatutin (Leningrad area)
33rd Army - GEN MAY Fyodor Tolbukhin (near Vyazma)
38th Army - GEN LT Andrei Eremenko (SW of Poltava)
16th Army - GEN LT Maksim Purkaev (Dnepropetrovsk/Zaporozhye area)

Battle stats: Axis 5 holds, 4 routs, 16 surrenders and 30 retreats.

[image]local://upfiles/4211/B8A66B18B2C341808205A61E36B29797.jpg[/image]



bigbaba -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/17/2012 8:17:42 PM)

he is damnd fast. turn 5 and he passed the landbridge and is in the D/Z town area!

i doubt if you can hold leningrad, moscow and rostov but i wish you good luck. a lot depends on if he is able to get the rainhead fast enough into the smolensk area.

yopu have a kick ass strong german opponent and 12 painfull turns ahead.[:)]



Speedysteve -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/17/2012 8:41:08 PM)

I wanted a challenge as I class myself as a pretty decent WITE player myself having played about 20ish campaign games overall. I like a challenge and am enjoying this...I must be a masochist [;)]

If I win this I'll class myself as Zeus[:D]



Rodimstev -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/18/2012 11:37:16 AM)

Hi speedy,

good luck and thanks for this AAR

after the storm, le sun shine...:)

and the red army has big reserve...

Rodimstev



Speedysteve -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/18/2012 1:26:23 PM)

Thanks for your thoughts Rodimstev.

Unfortunately doom is approaching everywhere. I've just got Turn 7 and LG is about to Fall the Dnepr is breached in the south and 2 pockets (7 units) formed west of Vyazma.

I've been pondering the last day about my play and I'm struggling to think of what I could have done differently to produce a different outcome. I'm sure it's because I'm in the heart of it and can't see the 'wood through the trees' but here's how I see it:

Saper wins 98% of his attacks (the last turn had ZERO holds. Sheesh) and is very skilled at maximising unit movements and herding units into pocket.

If I Sir Robin'd any quicker I'd be in Kazan by now.

If I fought further forward I'd be down to 3,4M men and would be toast in turns 10-17.

If I formed carpet's they'd have been herded into pockets.

If I just Checkerboarded he'd herd them into pockets.

I'm at a loss as to what I could have done differently and have come to the conclusion that against the very best Axis opponent there's nothing you can do in 41 and it's down to Axis mistakes whether you win or lose. It's clear to me this is lost now (you'll see when I post the turn view) but I'll fight on until the end out of respect to Saper.

At a loss to say the least......



Zonso -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/18/2012 2:15:28 PM)

Thanks for the AAR, interesting read. I was struck by some things and have a few comments based on my experience against some tough Soviet opponents. Take it for what it is worth.

1. The South is a death trap the first 4-5 turns. (Think Romanian rail) Here is where you should run. The first turn you have no control over. However, after that you threw away quite a few good units for no benefit. Another point, your opponent got very lucky I think with his Rovno pocket opening. I have tried to consistently create that numerous times after the rule change but gave up as being too chancy. I may have to take another look.

2. You are a fan of neat and order in setting up your lines. I think that is a handicap early on where many units could be better used in fortfying areas of contention, be very ruthless here in stripping units from unnecessary locations and putting them where needed. Don't be afraid of loosely defending certain areas. You need to better identify the Panzer avenues of approach and be thinking 2-3 turns in advance, building defenses along that route.

3. Related to #2. I think you are using too many units trying to create a forward checkerboard pattern when fewer in select locations will have the same effect. These units will be better utilized delaying by building forts in the rear.

It is still early and you have a fairly healthy Army. The key is once the Germans begin reaching the end of their logistics, turns 7-10, things will be getting tougher for them because you will be getting stronger, in refitted units and fortified lines. You can also help yourself a lot by being very aggressive with Partisan air supply. There is no real counter to this and early on they are very effective cutting the single rail lines providing supply. Do not neglect that. Cheers.



Speedysteve -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/18/2012 3:17:05 PM)

Thanks Zonso,

Good to get some thoughts on this.

1.) I am amazed by his success ratio on this attacks. Every turn it's 95-100%. I normally range in the 88-95% range as Axis in 41.

2.) That's a fair point and I could look into that. It's trick with the Panzers though. I know from the Axis GC's I've played it's always amazing how much ground the Panzers can cover in a week. If I defend one area too much they can easily skirt around to another area etc.

I'm not seeing a let up in his advance TBH and I doubt it will. His spearheads in AGN and AGC have a SP value of 30-35. If he moves forward 3 hexes a turn in AGC he'll comfortably stay within this SP range and take Moscow.

Any other thoughts from people?



Speedysteve -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/18/2012 3:25:35 PM)

Start of turn 7.

Post recon but pre-moves.

LG:

Screwed up here as said before. Not planning to do much up here but delay where I can.

Still have 8 x HI to evac from LG.

[image]local://upfiles/4211/6B3DC6F7BFDB48B490F06E5A5F33F660.jpg[/image]



Speedysteve -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/18/2012 3:27:00 PM)

Ilmen:

[image]local://upfiles/4211/6F166C0AC47744B7BFA761DBAC7B6C8E.jpg[/image]



Speedysteve -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/18/2012 3:28:27 PM)

VL:

[image]local://upfiles/4211/B78DCC415A894371A923268185C2ACD8.jpg[/image]



Speedysteve -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/18/2012 3:31:23 PM)

Vyazma:

2 pockets which have 9 x Rifle Div's in them.

Bryansk still has 4 x HI and 4 x ARM and Ordzhonikidzegrad has 3 x HI and 4 x ARM

[image]local://upfiles/4211/BFCC7D30A2AE46BC8292729341A4596A.jpg[/image]



Speedysteve -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/18/2012 3:32:53 PM)

Gomel:

Gomel still has 2 x HI left.


[image]local://upfiles/4211/EAC263D11B884EF197EC1DF6B284A4A2.jpg[/image]



Speedysteve -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/18/2012 3:34:46 PM)

Kiev:

Kiev still has 4 x HI left.

[image]local://upfiles/4211/69CBE60C18BF47A2907C4FB69DD2F41D.jpg[/image]



Speedysteve -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/18/2012 3:36:39 PM)

South:

Dnepr crossed.

Poltava and Kharkov are still full of Facs

[image]local://upfiles/4211/5FEED0A578CB4F90BB1A65E39B14AC1C.jpg[/image]



Speedysteve -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/18/2012 3:38:07 PM)

Far south:

Odessa units have knocked back 2 stacks of Rumanian's on T6. Will attempt to do the same on T7

[image]local://upfiles/4211/644E6B08D8D5479E9A343BF891BB73BF.jpg[/image]



Baelfiin -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/18/2012 4:29:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Thanks Zonso,

Good to get some thoughts on this.

1.) I am amazed by his success ratio on this attacks. Every turn it's 95-100%. I normally range in the 88-95% range as Axis in 41.

2.) That's a fair point and I could look into that. It's trick with the Panzers though. I know from the Axis GC's I've played it's always amazing how much ground the Panzers can cover in a week. If I defend one area too much they can easily skirt around to another area etc.

I'm not seeing a let up in his advance TBH and I doubt it will. His spearheads in AGN and AGC have a SP value of 30-35. If he moves forward 3 hexes a turn in AGC he'll comfortably stay within this SP range and take Moscow.

Any other thoughts from people?

Do what qball did to me at odessa, beat the snot out of the rumanians and expand the the perimeter there. You could be very pesty down there. I would also be back up as much as possible in the middle now that panzers are at bryansk and across the dnepr at dneprpetrovsk,



Walloc -> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) (9/18/2012 4:32:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Thanks Zonso,

Good to get some thoughts on this.

1.) I am amazed by his success ratio on this attacks. Every turn it's 95-100%. I normally range in the 88-95% range as Axis in 41.

2.) That's a fair point and I could look into that. It's trick with the Panzers though. I know from the Axis GC's I've played it's always amazing how much ground the Panzers can cover in a week. If I defend one area too much they can easily skirt around to another area etc.

I'm not seeing a let up in his advance TBH and I doubt it will. His spearheads in AGN and AGC have a SP value of 30-35. If he moves forward 3 hexes a turn in AGC he'll comfortably stay within this SP range and take Moscow.

Any other thoughts from people?


A few things. U never gona have a 8m+ man 42 SU army hench HI is "unimportand" in this case. Get the arm out forget the HI.

I can only concur with Zonso on item 2. Unlike other places u at south cuz 1 pz corps is fixed turn one. In reality will have mot units with full MP/ fuel for first 3 turns. Unlike on other fronts usually will only see this in first 2 turns. This mean IMO that u have too when u had the pockets u had on turn 1. Have no choice but to run on the first turns. Far away enough that further pocketing considering his MP/fuel situasion out side what is feasible. Another option depending on opponent, is to use deception. Some times u can help ur opponent to advance in a certain direction using up its fuel in these turn down south if u set up some thing like looks like a worth while target.

Other things i see in this in many AARs. IMO u use the wrong type of units up in front that then gets surrounded. Meaning those with vehicles and cav divs. IMO u lose far to many trucks that way and its not needed. Use other type of units in the front row of ur lines.
Apart from manpower/AP crunches the biggest bottleneck in 42/creating the RU army v2.0 is trucks. U until 43 will only have what u save from the 41 army. There is no need to use counters with that gold in first lines in 41 IMO. Generally speaking.

Kind regards,

Rasmus



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