How to defeat P-51 escorts? (Full Version)

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Strv103C -> How to defeat P-51 escorts? (9/27/2012 5:38:47 PM)

I'm in the 43GC as german and in mid december 43 the P-51B seems unstoppable. Is there any recommended tactic against those P-51 escorted raids?



Murdock -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (9/29/2012 6:07:21 AM)

I think this depends on what aircraft you produce and research. If you stick to Me109 and Fw190 like the Germans did,then in my opinion you will probably loose even against the AI. The way to win this game for the German side is research (early and massive) and production. Look at the Ta152c ,a real monster and it is possible to get it as early as end of September 1943.There is still an old AAR around on this forum about this issue. On the other hand,if You follow this advice,you will win this game in spring of 1944. There might be a compromise like the Fw190d,not so gamey but still a match for the P51.



Strv103C -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (9/29/2012 7:21:02 PM)

Thanks for the advice. I´m currently researching mainly Me262A, FW190D and TA152C. But I will have to do with my FW190A6 at least until June 44 (JAnuary 1st now) when my FW 190D should arrive.



CV Zuikaku -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/1/2012 9:25:12 AM)

Why not Ta-152H ??
And how on earth can you get Ta-152 in september '43?? It's arrival date is december '45. Is that possible??
And does Me-262A-0 really arrives in 3/44 as is stated in
"BTR Luftwaffe Aircraft Statistics.xls" sheet??



7th Somersets -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/1/2012 3:58:45 PM)

I think that there is a test squadron that is deployed in March - gaining 1 ME262/day. Historically it was not deployed (I believe) into front line service. In my current game - I discovered it when it shot down one of my recon missions and then attacked a bomber formation just west of Wilemshaven around mid March 44.

7th



CV Zuikaku -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/1/2012 5:20:53 PM)

In 700 day campaign, I set 5 capacity assemblies/parts and 20 cap engine factories to produce Me-262As. So ,that is 150 a month. I shoul'd be able to have Me-262A production by December '43. Is that right or did I miss something??
And also, what are allied replacement rates? Can I drain them dry of bombers?
In 7 days I managed to shot down 500 B-17s (too deep unescorted raids so I threw all nightfighters and ZGs on them). I know I won't be able to sustain that high kill rates, so I was wondering if I can kill enough of them until Me-262As arrive? And if they arrive that fast?



yubari -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/1/2012 11:04:23 PM)

I think there might have been some confusion over the different patches. In the early patches it was indeed possible to research to get the advanced jet fighters after a couple of months of game time but that is not so in the latest patch, I think advancing two or three months is just about possible, but haven't tried it myself. The two Ta 152s are available in Dec 1944 and Jan 1945.

Defeating the P-51s? A very good question. If playing the AI, it typically sends 4 or 5 separate heavy bomber raids to targets which are close to each other but such that one of the raids gets separated from the other four. That is the raid that will then get swamped by multiple squadrons of 109s and 190s and then a few minutes later by the 110s and 410s. Otherwise I just leave them alone, they eat early 44 German planes for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

There are small units of 262s and 163s which arrive at around turn 240 I think.



CV Zuikaku -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/2/2012 12:17:57 AM)

How does pilot experience affects fighting P-51s?
How fast is it possible to get Ta-152s after latest patch?
I got 20 assemblies working on Ta-152. That is 600 research points per month. Is it possible to get Ta-152s by the early '44 ???



npsergio -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/2/2012 6:44:41 AM)

Somewhere in this forum it's said that you advance 1 month the starting production date for every 100 planes researched.
I'm playing a 44 Campaign as the defender. Itks hard to defeat the mustangs and P47... But you can try this:
Try to keep you morale high, and your fatigue low. Your planes will be better this way.
I track the raid and look at the scorts alt. I send the 109G over 30000 feet, 7 or 8000 over the higher scort. Higher alt is to give them more chances in dogfighting.
I send the interceptors without cannons or rockets, so they had their best performance, and get more fuel.
I pray to the Lord, and wait and see how develops...
I send Fw under 30000. They're harder to kill than Me.
if i'm lucky enough, may be I have spent the fuel or ammo of the scorts. So i send the Fw F and G with rockets and the heavies.
I put the 109G and Fw in figther bounce doctrine. It seems that this way they survive a lot more. They don't get so many kills but they survive for another time...
In the meanwhile you have to research good planes. I'm trying to get the Me 109G14, FwD, some Ta, and some Do335. Rocket planes are good but they have a very short range.
My "tactic" is to give my old dated planes the most advantages as possible to try to send the more scorts as possible back home, leaving the bombers alone

I hope that this helps.



Dobey455 -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/2/2012 6:45:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CV Zuikaku

How does pilot experience affects fighting P-51s?
How fast is it possible to get Ta-152s after latest patch?
I got 20 assemblies working on Ta-152. That is 600 research points per month. Is it possible to get Ta-152s by the early '44 ???



As for experience, well yes it makes a difference (and morale!!).

If your pilots have high experience and high morale they will do better against the allies. Similarly a low experience and low morale pilot will perform worse.
However a low experience or morale pilot in a P-51 will still do better than a low XP \ morale pilot in a P-40.

If your fighter losses have been consistently low and the allied fighter losses have been consistently high then you would likely have an advantage over them. As mentioned earlier a good allied aircraft will diminish that advantage.
Also high bomber crew losses means they will get less kills with defensive fire and be less accurate in bombing.



CV Zuikaku -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/2/2012 11:48:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: npsergio

Somewhere in this forum it's said that you advance 1 month the starting production date for every 100 planes researched.


Yes, but somebody also said that this was somewhat changed after the patch. so, my concern is- is it still possible to get Ta-152 in early '44 with my rate of research (20 per day/20 capacity)??


quote:

ORIGINAL: npsergio


I'm playing a 44 Campaign as the defender. Itks hard to defeat the mustangs and P47... But you can try this:
Try to keep you morale high, and your fatigue low. Your planes will be better this way.
I track the raid and look at the scorts alt. I send the 109G over 30000 feet, 7 or 8000 over the higher scort. Higher alt is to give them more chances in dogfighting.
I send the interceptors without cannons or rockets, so they had their best performance, and get more fuel.



Yes, Bf-109 is seriously outperformed by '43. and Fw just does not offer cutting edhe any more.
I try to determine composition of the raid by comparing raid cruise speed with weapons database. Then I decide if I'm gonna strike or not. I just tend to let most of the Italian and coastal raids go unmolested. I just try to intercept raids heading toward my airfields. But I pick a few raids a day which I strike with everything I got and try to achieve local superiority in numbers (and that can be done). So every day B-17 and some other minor raids just get crippled.
Also noticed that schippol is very interesting target for allied fighter bombers. So I packed it with FLAK and balloons. This FLAK trap is able to handle Spitfires but I still need to scramble when Typhoon raids are inbound.... Also airfield have to mutually cover themselves by patrols....


quote:

ORIGINAL: npsergio

I pray to the Lord, and wait and see how develops...



I don't pray much- yet [:'(] Mustangs are still not escorting "fat cars" [:D]


quote:

ORIGINAL: npsergio


I put the 109G and Fw in figther bounce doctrine. It seems that this way they survive a lot more. They don't get so many kills but they survive for another time...



I do not understand the difference between bonce and direct attack?! Bounce is something like "hit and run"? And direct is dogfighting and not breaking contact??


quote:

ORIGINAL: npsergio


I hope that this helps.


Yes, that helps! Thank you all guys for sharing your experience [&o]



Dobey455 -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/2/2012 2:12:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CV Zuikaku

I do not understand the difference between bonce and direct attack?! Bounce is something like "hit and run"? And direct is dogfighting and not breaking contact??




Bounce - Your fighters will try to position them selves to attack the target from the most favourable postion.

Advantage - Most likely to avoid losses to your interceptors.

Disadvantages - Requires much more time to setup for each attack meaning less attacks are likely to be launched before fuel runs out. If the correct position cannot be achieved an attack might not occur at all.

- It gives the escort the most time to intervene and interrupt your attack.



Direct - Once the target is spotted your pilots just drive straight at it with no attempt to achieve a favourable position.

Advantages- Give escorts the least amount of time to intervene.
- Requires less time to initiate combat.

Disadvantages - More likely to take losses to defensive fire, (bombers), or counter-attack (fighters).
- MAY increase the chance of damaging the target rather than destroying it. (I have not confirmed this).


I believe it is generally felt that you should use "Bounce" early in the war while the Lufftwaffe still has a large amount of skilled pilots but change to "Direct" later in the war once they are relying on green pilots as it gives them the best chance of getting through the escorts before the escorts can engage them (once the escorts catch the green German pilots they are dead meat regardless of the tactic employed).
Jets and Rockets would probably also benefit from "direct"

I have no idea if these settings affect both day and night operations.



npsergio -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/2/2012 3:31:06 PM)

I prefer bounce tactuc against direct because with the direct tactics the planes attack no matter their relative position in front of the enemy, so they can be counter-bounced before even reach the enemy and can enter into the bomber's defensive zone, etc. German planes are aoutnumbered and outperformed by the allies, but with the little advantage of higher alt, and trying to stay behind the enemies, i found that they survive more time. They get less kills because they are worsre planes, but they are not killed in big numbers... Just IMO.

Also i know that the G6 and Fw aren't good enough. That's why in 1944 i try to use different tactics... G6 and G5AS try to explode their better performance to higher alts, and Fw fly below 30000 to their best alt. Fw also are thougher planes, so they are damaged in big numbers but ususally survive.
It's just a tactic to make the scorts to use their fuel and ammo and make them go home leaving the bombers alone... Not to kill them, but to make them return home.

Local superiority is not always possible in 44. I have found that a few good morale Gruppen can do more damage and receive less damage than a mass of low morale gruppen. I try not to send below 50 morale gruppen unless absolutely needed. Sometimes I send over 50 morale gruppen, and I send all that can fly over 60 morale.

I send the heavies to patrol. Some of them in big groups, and other in small groups. They wait for damaged bombers, or they wait for disorganized boxes by heavy AA fire.

I'm researching G14 and G10 because they have a bit better performance than G6. But you need to keep the G6 production because you need at least 500 stock of G6 to the computer to upgrade your allied planes (IARs, Ga, etc).

Fw D is a compromise solution, but i find them useful. Their better than A7 and A8, and I think that I'll need them as long as I don't have enough Ta.

Also remember that in 44 the allied raids will be scorted by literaly hundreds of planes (200-500 planes).

I use the stabs and some specialized units with heavy weapons to fight the damaged bombers. All the other need the extra fuel and all their performance to stay alive.

Of course you can't defend agains all the raids. You can only track them to choose one or may be two of them as your objectives. Sometimes it's better to stay at the airfield...

Bad weather turns are your allied. With good luck the raid's scorts won't fly. That day you will scramble all that can fly.

Forget the raids with objectives between the ruhr and the coast.

Look at your opponent attack patterns... Do he attack one industry tipe or other?? Reinforce the remaining with heavy AAs. Sometimes you will get good kill numbers thanks to the AA and your fighters killing the damaged bombers.

If you have Me 262, forget the fighters. Send them with rockets. With some luck you will disorganize the raid and your other planes could finish the work.

If you have not Me-262, try to do that work with the Fw F anf G. F are thougher. G have more range.





CV Zuikaku -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/2/2012 4:38:29 PM)

Thanks for the tips [:)]
What are your experiences with post patch research??
Is it possible to get superior fighters early??



mgp104 -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/2/2012 6:50:08 PM)

I've recently tried a playing as the Germans in a '43 campaign (using the latest patch). I decided to focus on building '43 types to keep the numbers up and then put significant effort into researching the most advanced types. From the start I was building 10 Ta152Cs and 10 Hs (I assume since they are distinct types in the production list you need to research both), 10 Me262As and 5 Go229s per day. Of course these changes in production incurred delays. Also building so many jets has meant that engines are always in short supply so I doubt that the maximum number of airframes possible was produced. Sometime in January '44 I changed a lot of Fw190A-5 (my main escort interceptor until then) production over to Ta152Hs so that from then I was producing around 20H's per day, again with delays due to production changes.

The result of these changes? Ta152Hs started rolling of the production lines at the start of March 1944, I still haven't got to April yet but I expect that the Ta152Cs will come in soon along with the Me262s. I've now converted all Fw190A-5 production over to Ta152H and am getting around 35-40 new airframes per day, I can't see the Allies holding out much longer.......



CV Zuikaku -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/2/2012 7:11:15 PM)

So, no big changes regarding research.
And with 20 Ta-152s in research from beginning I should be able to get them before March '44.
Thanks [&o]



mgp104 -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/2/2012 9:21:26 PM)

I think there have been big changes. A search of the forum shows that the requirements to bring forward the introduction date of late war aircraft is much larger than it was in previous versions, but committing so much industry to research will have an effect. It seems that the original version had a set rate of 100 aircraft 'produced' to advance the in service date by 1 month, producing 20 of one type would advance this date by 6 months per month of full production. The Ta152s are due in about 16 months from the start of a '43 campaign so would be in service about 3 months after the start of the campaign.

Also you say that you are producing 20 Ta152s, which is what I was initially (albeit split evenly between the two types). If you want to see them in service before March '44 the production will probably need to be all in either C's or H's not a mix of both.



yubari -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/4/2012 10:18:48 AM)

Oh dear, I think that that will create massive game balance issues. What chance do the Allies have against that number of Ta152s coming in that early? With successful deep penetration raids very difficult in 1943 and then again after March 1944 that gives only a couple of months to destroy the German industry.

Do the Ta 152s indeed perform as well as their excellent statistics would suggest? I would hope that there would be a new patch to address these issues but Hard Sarge has long been absent.



Dobey455 -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/4/2012 12:40:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: yubari

Oh dear, I think that that will create massive game balance issues. What chance do the Allies have against that number of Ta152s coming in that early? With successful deep penetration raids very difficult in 1943 and then again after March 1944 that gives only a couple of months to destroy the German industry.

Do the Ta 152s indeed perform as well as their excellent statistics would suggest? I would hope that there would be a new patch to address these issues but Hard Sarge has long been absent.


Ta-152's are a very nice aircraft, but it doesn't create THAT much of a change in game balance. They can still push big raids in deep but will take higher casualties than if they were facing only Bf-109's and FW-190's.
Basically the Germans go from being at a distinct disadvantage in 1944 to being closer to parity.


Besides there is a tactic to counter everything.
Ta-152's are awesome up high, but very poor at low and medium altitudes......so maybe they will start to find their airfields heavily targeted by low or medium altitude attacks from fighters and medium bombers. This will give them an option of being straffed or bombed on the ground or taking off and fighting at a disadvantage.
Either choice will start to lower their morale fairly quickly and low morale pilots fight poorly, even in good A/C.



Denniss -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/4/2012 1:11:23 PM)

Hmmm, realworld combat reports praised the Ta 152H at all altitudes although the engine high-alt supercharger speed proved problematic.



Dobey455 -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/5/2012 5:40:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Hmmm, realworld combat reports praised the Ta 152H at all altitudes although the engine high-alt supercharger speed proved problematic.


It might be more correct, in game terms, if I had said it is "substantially less impressive at low or medium altitiudes".
Having said that just looking at the very long, thin wings I would find it hard to believe that it wasn't at a serious maneuvering disadvantage at lower altitiudes, although speed may still have been good.



yubari -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/5/2012 11:08:05 AM)

Hmmm, I don't think that the German player really needs any added advantages in 1944. Playing against the AI (as I guess nearly all of us are) and avoiding the large P-51 stacks I am still in turn 190, Feb 1944 shooting down planes at a 3 or 4 to 1 ratio and have a pilot attrition ratio of about 8 to 1, and that is without using such questionable tactics as mass use of night fighters during the day or attacking those confused lost bomber raids that get to the channel and then turn back towards a waypoint in Germany. My industry has barely been touched and I have literally tens of thousands of planes in the pool. And this has all been done with the planes arriving at historical times. I dread to think what I could do if I had Ta 152s.

Now of course anyone may play the game however they wish, but in my opinion, any German player playing against the AI would be making the game trivially easy for themselves by using this tactic.

Is it possible to find the manouever statistics for the different altitudes for the 152? Does it work as in WITP AE, where the planes have their highest performance at the lowest range band and then this deteriorates as the plane goes higher, deteriorating at a fast rate for a Spitfire L or Fw 190 and at a slow rate for a P47 or Ta 152?



Dobey455 -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/6/2012 4:10:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: yubari

Does it work as in WITP AE, where the planes have their highest performance at the lowest range band and then this deteriorates as the plane goes higher, deteriorating at a fast rate for a Spitfire L or Fw 190 and at a slow rate for a P47 or Ta 152?


My Understanding is that it uses a performance curve rather than the linear model WITP AE uses (where all A/C have best performance at Sea Level, trailing off as they climb).
So, for example a P-47 has much harder time at low altitude against bf-109's and Fw-190's, but improves significantly at higher altitudes.
A Spitfire Mk F.IX might be fairly good at low altitude, get better as is climbs to its optimal altitude and then have performance drop off again as it climbs higher still.
The best advice I have seen is to use aircraft at the altitudes the were histoically designed for and you will get the best out of them.



CV Zuikaku -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/7/2012 1:15:24 PM)

There are some strange things with italian fighters. Seems that Re2005s and Mc205 Veltros perform better than Bf-109G6s. Re2005s got better statistics than G6s, so thats not strange. But Veltros are statisticaly slightly inferior to G6s. Yet, with lower skilled and lower morale italian pilots they are more successfull against Spitfires, P-38s and other fighters than G6s flown by higher morale and experience German pilots.
So, whats the secret? I'm considering converting german gruppen to Veltros if they are so much better against fighters.



Dobey455 -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/7/2012 2:32:22 PM)

Too many unknowns from your question.

Do the Italian fighters also take fewer losses?
Are all the fighter types engaged in combat for the same duration and intercepting at the same time?

German fighters mostly start further back in Italy so have less fuel by the time they intercept, meaning less time to get kills.

Also whether you intercept inbound or outbound raids matters. Or if your fighters hit BINGO fuel and have to break off before the allies also makes a big difference (usually in the form of higher losses).

Also the composition of the raids themselves matter, so if the Bf-109s are intercepting raids with better cover they will have a harder time.

The stats in game represent the best performance at optimum altitude, but maneuverability will vary at different altitudes (possibly other stats as well).



CV Zuikaku -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/7/2012 3:39:43 PM)

Strange thing is that they intercept at the same time and from approx. same ranges.
Yes, italian fighters are mixed together with german since I always try to overwhelm and decimate one raid. And yet, they score more kills then germans and are taking lighter casualties in fighter vs. fighter combat. And ,yes, they are on the same doctrine (bounce fighter)



Dobey455 -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/8/2012 4:04:58 PM)

After looking at the stats in game the interesting thing is actually that I would disagree and say the Veltro is the better plane!

The stats are almost identical, with the Veltro being 1mph faster and having a 500ft / min better climb, but the BIG killer here is the Veltro has 40% more firepower!!!
a gun value of 14 compared to the BF-109's value of 10.

This seems about right considering the BF-109 has two MG's and a single 20mm cannon while the Veltro has 2 x 20mm cannons and 2 MG's.

So basically the 2 A/C perform almost identically, but the Veltro is more likely to kill what ever it hits.
As for experience I would say that Experience differentials are less obvious than WITP AE.
10 points of experience difference is not a huge difference, morale would matter more at that point.

[image]local://upfiles/27677/F03BF491C9414867A8641860924341C4.jpg[/image]



cohimbra -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/8/2012 4:40:32 PM)

Well, the Re.2005 and the G.55 seems to be better than MC.205:

[image]http://imageshack.us/a/img141/1783/immaginecxd.png[/image]

the bad thing is that all these three italian models need x2 Fiat Engine,
the Bf 109G-6 need only one DB 605A engine.




Dobey455 -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/9/2012 7:35:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cohimbra

Well, the Re.2005 and the G.55 seems to be better than MC.205:

the bad thing is that all these three italian models need x2 Fiat Engine,
the Bf 109G-6 need only one DB 605A engine.



They are indeed very nice. I was trying to say the MC.205 had better stats than the Bf-109G-6, I didn't mean to imply it was better than some of the other Italian fighters [;)]

You are correct that the engines are a draw back in the use of Italian fighters (ie holds up production.)



CV Zuikaku -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/9/2012 9:05:07 AM)

So, converting 109s to italian fighters is a good idea?
and why do they need X2 Fiat engines?? They are single engined fighters and do not use unreliable jet engines....



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