RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (Full Version)

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Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/1/2012 1:57:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510

Looking forward to following your AAR. I have always enjoyed everything you have to say, and I have learned a lot from you.

Good luck and have fun.


You should learn a lot from this too, but maybe not in a good way. [:'(]




Gridley380 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/1/2012 5:39:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


d) hold engineers back in CONUS until all bases are maxed out on their VP multipliers.


Admission of ignorance: I have no idea what you're talking about here. Would you be so kind as to elaborate or point me to the part of the manual that I apparently forgot?

I'll be very interested to see how this AAR goes, especially with no HRs!

"Presto!"

"RRRRAAAAARRRRR!"

"Gee, don't know my own strength!"




LoBaron -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/1/2012 5:45:23 PM)

How could I miss this AAR?!

I expect great deeds in here!
And well executed amphibious landings!

[img]http://fsfiles.org/flightsimshotsv2/images/2012/10/01/NiJ9V.png[/img]




Crackaces -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/1/2012 7:12:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gridley380


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


d) hold engineers back in CONUS until all bases are maxed out on their VP multipliers.


Admission of ignorance: I have no idea what you're talking about here. Would you be so kind as to elaborate or point me to the part of the manual that I apparently forgot?

I'll be very interested to see how this AAR goes, especially with no HRs!

"Presto!"

"RRRRAAAAARRRRR!"

"Gee, don't know my own strength!"


I think the Moose is discussing upgrading the ports and airfields and the multiplier is Base VP's = base multiple * [2x airfield + port level]. Thus the strategy of upgrading of WC bases before sending the engineers to sit at P.H. before deploying further. In terms of looking at autovictory every single point is worth x4 because the IJ need to earn x4 points for autovictory. If the situation is close .. those WC base VP'scould be a big plus for staving off Autovictory.




Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/3/2012 1:00:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

How could I miss this AAR?!

I expect great deeds in here!
And well executed amphibious landings!

[img]http://fsfiles.org/flightsimshotsv2/images/2012/10/01/NiJ9V.png[/img]


Excellent picture. Despite their reputation as pretty stupid, and the reality that they're pretty nearsighted, moose are nasty animals that will kill you if you give them a chance. I've seen them in the wild, in Alaska, and they are big and they know there are few things in their world they need to fear. You do not want to get between a mama and her calf.




Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/3/2012 1:04:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gridley380


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


d) hold engineers back in CONUS until all bases are maxed out on their VP multipliers.


Admission of ignorance: I have no idea what you're talking about here. Would you be so kind as to elaborate or point me to the part of the manual that I apparently forgot?

I'll be very interested to see how this AAR goes, especially with no HRs!

"Presto!"

"RRRRAAAAARRRRR!"

"Gee, don't know my own strength!"


I think the Moose is discussing upgrading the ports and airfields and the multiplier is Base VP's = base multiple * [2x airfield + port level]. Thus the strategy of upgrading of WC bases before sending the engineers to sit at P.H. before deploying further. In terms of looking at autovictory every single point is worth x4 because the IJ need to earn x4 points for autovictory. If the situation is close .. those WC base VP'scould be a big plus for staving off Autovictory.


Exactly right. Time is currency in a strong auto-vic game. "You got time to lean you got time to clean. Or build an airbase."

Playing the AI I always had lots of units stacked at PH waiting for a job. On the second turn, my first "real" one" which I just sent to Mike, I spent hours juggling anything with engineers, splitting restricted divisions, sending men to holes-in-the-wall in CONUS to get digging. Every VP I earn in Idaho is one I don't have to earn with blood.




Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/3/2012 1:50:12 AM)

A few musings after just completing my first "no surprise" turn, December 8th, in no particular order

1) Lots more clicking than I'm used to.

2) Set up Local minesweepers for the first time ever.

3) The new parent-child asterick mark in the LCU list in the beta is a godsend for finding all the pieces and parts and getting them moving toward combining. Especially useful in Oz and Malaysia.

4) I set up as many surface TFs at places I expect to get hit on Day 2 as I could. PH has wounded BBs as TF cores (some have 40 points of damage in one area, and damage in more than one area) matched with at least one CA and multiple DDs as flak castles. I figured if I put the BBs pierside they're going to bleed and for nothing, so they might as well go down swinging. I tried to better stack my CAP than on turn 1, having at least one top-cover P-40 unit, even where the maneuver band sucks.

5) Still don't know if there will be a Mersing gambit; did what I could with mines and moving one extra infantry unit forward.

6) I began moves which could turn into a Fortress Palembang if he gives me time. I divided Sumatra into a north zone and a south, north on Sabang, south on Palembang, with a medium stiff force to hold Oosthaven open due to P's river port. Began bug-out of all base forces and combat units to those three sites, while digging furiously in top-2.

7. Java I divided E/W on Soerbaja and Batavia. with a strong force in the mountains east of Batavia. Left base forces at the two landing hexes SE of Soerbaja, but they'll only buy a day. All air power to the two bastions with torpedo HQs. Soerbaja is stockpiling supplies, and digging forts rather than worrying about air bases and ports. I won't hold either base on Java; no reason to give him multipliers.

8. The PI I consolidated down south to three bases, Davao the weakest. Moved what I could to Cebu this turn--not much. Will bug the transports out after. I aim to save ships at the expense of the PI army. Up north I plan to make a moderate stand at Manila and get what supply out I can. Pulled everything north back to Clark except a small force at Iba, and a bait-force at Lingayan. I sent five subs with mines to Lingayan, about 100 mines. Hope to slow him there. Digging at Clark with about 50% of my forces, including all tanks. Bataan on strong supply spinner pull-in and stockpile. Sent two HQs and some of the weaker stuff from Manila. Bulk of CAP is over Clark.

9. Sortied all ships in at-risk ports. Took a page from an old Canoerebel game and sent some east right up the middle for Pearl and Dutch Harbor. Split rest about equally on Singers/Darwin/Soerbaja/Brisbane routes. Some might get through. Sent the HK PTs to Manila; will accumulate two hexes of out of fuel damage, but I've always had luck with PTs in the PI. Ships that were not at risk but numerous I mostly sent toward CT. I will run high-speed off-map supply trains from EC to CT for at least one cycle and see where I am.

10. This plan means Perth must stay open. To that I sent a strong Aussie infantry unit there by rail, and ordered satellite units in the west to flow there. Let the beginning unit at Kalgoorie stay put on TOE upgrade. RockyRoo has long preached that a very good way into Oz is from Albany north to Kalgoorie rather than straight in at Perth. I'm also gathering what air power I can spare to Perth--storng patrols--and Force Z will be on call in two days. It worries me that I don't know where most of the magic TFs went.

11. Returning to CONUS, I had to break one way or the other with US air, and I rolled the dice and sent many units, including all my good 2E bombers, toward CT on this turn. I don't know what the situaiton will be in a month, but I think they're better used there than trying to piece them into an east-Pac without strong basing. The CT route lets me get them most of the way to the war zone comletely safe. When they need to come on map to Colombo or maybe northern Sumatra I need to have escorts waiting at CT, including, possibly, Saratogo. I want to wait at least two more turns before I commit a CV to the IO. If I do it'll go off-map too.

12. Returning to Malaysia, I'm doing a modified bug-out. Consolidating the two atomized Indian divisions at Malaca and Alor Star (if he lets me), with one componet infantry battalion taking one swing at the Japanese at Kota Bharu before leaving. My Day 1 intel says KB has only 2400 men ashore, which is probably wrong, but I'm going to risk one attack regardless. Once these two are reformed I plan to head to Singers most likely. I've abandoned Georgetown. Singers has extra mines, all the TBs with strong HQ support, and a good bit of the Dutch navy in TFs on flak duty until I can pull back two AA uinits from Jo. I'm risking a couple fo single large xAKs of fuel up from Palembang to keep the HI furnaces cranking out supply. Singers is stockpiling everything and digging furiiously.

13. In the north, I've sent the Tavoy and the southern hex unit (don't recall name) toward Moulein. We'll see what happens there. Also sent strong supply convoys toward Rangoon. I expect he'll mess with me In China and I want to shove what I can up the Road while it's open. Could be one turn if he gets his paras in shape. I'm going to try a medium stiff stand at Pegu/Rangoon. I've never done this against a human of course, but I may be able to make him pay for the port. I have no trouble sending Dutch subs in there to die if necessary.

14. Flushed surviving subs from Manila on pretty standard zones, up around the invasion beaches. Sent a few to Cam Rahn Bay, Pescadores, and Okinawa to see if they can snipe. The Japanese ASW in December is very, very weak. The Dutch sub whch sank the CL on Turn One got massively worked over inside the harbor at KB and only had 52 float damge. It will easily make SIngers. I think that's about three days' yard time.

15. Almost forgot NG. Started the small units north of the mountains walking home to PM. Used all my patrol planes to start pulling what I could out of Rabaul. Depends on how much time I get. Don't plan to send non-organic reinforcments to PM from Oz. Discussed with Rocky, and he made a good case that my AI habits in this area were more risk than reward. PM will do the best it can. If I can get fighters across in time they might get a small serving to keep Lae honest.

16. The rest was about twelve hours of patrol zones, supply spinning. pilot training, Chinese guys running hither and yon (I'm going to be killed in China, I can already feel it), moving stuff south in the DEI with Dutch patrol planes, and trying to set up soime little interesting traps with night bombing and such. Don't have a lot in the toolbox yet of course.

We'll see what the butcher's bill is in a second PH stike. He might be surprised I left my BBs undocked, locked, and cocked. If he stays for day three he'll be out of torps pretty much, and I may go hunting. Two is rough; three days is showing off.[:)]




Chickenboy -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/3/2012 6:02:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
I'm going to be killed in China, I can already feel it.


Yes. Expect the entirety of the Manchurian infantry garrison in excess of 8,000 (some 3,000 AV IIRC) to be coming your way shortly. Unfortunately, they also get to bring all of their artillery and other support (base) forces and HQ units that are otherwise idle in Manchuria.

So, in addition to the usual suspects in China, I'd expect another 8-9 division equivalents, armor, artillery and base forces to support. Oh-since he doesn't have to keep planes there for exclusive training, you can expect to see these 'training' on your troops in China too.

A powerful 'give' to the Japanese effort in China by a no-PP 'buy' HR.

Good luck!




Chickenboy -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/3/2012 6:16:24 PM)

Oops-almost forgot:

There's some really nice IRs in Korea too. Added to the OOB avalanche coming into China, consider that another 1.5 Division equivalents with support. I don't have the OOB in front of me, but that's my recollection.





JocMeister -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/3/2012 6:36:57 PM)

Yepp, You are going to get steamrolled in China. Absolutely zero chance of you to survive there. But since this is a no HR game I suggest you start moving most of them towards India right away! Try to delay him wherever you can but get most of them moving. Make sure you do not under any circumstances let the Chinese get cut off from Burma/India. You need to keep the retreat open! Those Chinese will turns into something like 25K AV eventually. Thats nice to have [:)]





Canoerebel -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/3/2012 7:10:24 PM)

Many players will excercise reasonable retraint in handling the Manchurian garrison. There's just a "smell test," even in a game with no HR.

One-Eyed-Jacks as victimized by Nemo with a Fortress Palembang, as I'm sure nearly everybody recalls. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.




Canoerebel -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/3/2012 7:11:57 PM)

Hey, Moose, a whole two days into your game, how would you describe the excitement level in PBEM vs. AI? I doubt you've ever posted about a thousand-word AAR in an AI game. (This isn't a shot at AI games - I realize many players prefer them for one reason or another. But they are very different.) What's your take?




Chickenboy -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/3/2012 7:33:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Many players will excercise reasonable retraint in handling the Manchurian garrison. There's just a "smell test," even in a game with no HR.


I just don't see this as an issue in a no-holds barred game, CR.

By design, this should be implemented by the IJ player. To *not* do so is to abrogate responsibility for an enormously important asset. Bullwinkle has indicated that he's going to do a Fortress Palembang of sorts-in the spirit of his very clearly expressed 'anything goes' wishes for the game.

By all means then, One Eyed Jacks should put the petal to the metal and dump whatever he can from Manchuko into China and blow that theatre out as soon as possible.




Canoerebel -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/3/2012 8:01:40 PM)

Alot of players, even in a no-hold's-barred game, will excercise restraint. Many just seem to come equipped with a "speed arrester" that keeps the game in check. Of course, some player's don't. Some will march an army across the Owen Stanley Mountains because there's nothing to prevent it. Others just won't do it. I don't know which camp One-Eyed falls into, but it wouldn't surprise me if he's a "what was reasonably possible" kind of guy.




Chickenboy -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/3/2012 8:50:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
he's a "what was reasonably possible" kind of guy.


I think that argument goes out the window along with the HRs.

Bull explicitly wanted to game towards the engine. "I have said to Mike several times that no HRs means, to me, no HRs", said the Bull. This includes the Manchuko garrison and its implementation. That was even a discussion point for which a single HR was declined by both-re-read the first AAR post, CanoeRebel. It's pretty clear that the use of all Manchuko / Korean forces without PPs is reasonably possible and-in fact-tacitly agreed upon by both players.

I fully expect that this will be countered by the Bull at some time in the future, which will lead to sizeable land warfare in Burma in 1942-1943. But by then China will be a smoldering ruin for the Allies.




Canoerebel -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/3/2012 8:57:44 PM)

I missed all of that discussion, so you're probably right, Chickenboy.




Schanilec -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/3/2012 9:15:36 PM)

The Moose has entered the room.

Strike up the band.[:)]




Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/3/2012 9:21:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
I'm going to be killed in China, I can already feel it.


Yes. Expect the entirety of the Manchurian infantry garrison in excess of 8,000 (some 3,000 AV IIRC) to be coming your way shortly. Unfortunately, they also get to bring all of their artillery and other support (base) forces and HQ units that are otherwise idle in Manchuria.

So, in addition to the usual suspects in China, I'd expect another 8-9 division equivalents, armor, artillery and base forces to support. Oh-since he doesn't have to keep planes there for exclusive training, you can expect to see these 'training' on your troops in China too.

A powerful 'give' to the Japanese effort in China by a no-PP 'buy' HR.

Good luck!


Builds character. [:)]

If he wants to bully me with that pile in China they aren't doing it somewhere else. I have a VP loss-ratio advantage in China too. But if he takes China he takes it. I just need to operate elsewhere to keep the VPs reasonable until 1943.

Or lose. I could lose too.




Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/3/2012 9:22:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Oops-almost forgot:

There's some really nice IRs in Korea too. Added to the OOB avalanche coming into China, consider that another 1.5 Division equivalents with support. I don't have the OOB in front of me, but that's my recollection.




Maybe I could get him close to the 8000 A/V, then run a suicide sucker punch in there somewhere and take it to 7900. Instant Soviet sunshine! [8D]




Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/3/2012 9:23:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Many players will excercise reasonable retraint in handling the Manchurian garrison. There's just a "smell test," even in a game with no HR.

One-Eyed-Jacks as victimized by Nemo with a Fortress Palembang, as I'm sure nearly everybody recalls. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.


I hope he tries it. I'm considering a Fortress P. right now. All I smell is perfume![:D]




Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/3/2012 9:30:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Schanilec

The Moose has entered the room.

Strike up the band.[:)]


Thank you, suh, thank you. (bows, antlers to the deck.)

I have watched the Turn 2 combat replay and it was, ahem, interesting. Very possible an IJN CA reacted onto USS Oglala doing its work inside PH. Mines go boomski, sunk ship sound effect is heard. Later, far to the west, USS Houston, making a run for Miri and then Singers, alone, encounters strong IJN surface TF and scores five penetrating 8in hits on yet another IJN CL. If she went down that's three cruisers in two days.

I will post a description of the second day, probably tomorrow, for tonight it is a moose's birthday, and revelry is planned. (Also take-out Chinese.)

But Day 2 was not a rout.




Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/3/2012 9:35:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Hey, Moose, a whole two days into your game, how would you describe the excitement level in PBEM vs. AI? I doubt you've ever posted about a thousand-word AAR in an AI game. (This isn't a shot at AI games - I realize many players prefer them for one reason or another. But they are very different.) What's your take?


It's fun, so far. It's harder in that there are areas I need to pay attention to which the AI will let slide and that adds to the clicks. The first real Allied turn took parts of three days and probably fifteen hours. In an AI game I would have done a lot of that hosuekeeping over 3-4 turns.

Probably the hardest part is not being able to immediatley start the next turn. I have thr eplay for Day 2, but no save yet. By the time I get it I'll have to re-watch the replay and study Tracker, which I can't load until I get the play file. I don't know how you do it with week-long gaps between turns sometimes. I see why people play multiple games, but I couldn't keep the strategies straight.

Overall, so far, I'm glad I tried PBEM. I had wrung out what an AI could do, pretty much.




Chickenboy -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/3/2012 9:36:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
Or lose. I could lose too.


Reminds me of the Mythbusters' motto: "Failure is always an option." [:D]




Chickenboy -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/3/2012 9:38:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
If he wants to bully me with that pile in China they aren't doing it somewhere else.


Until he changes their HQ to an unrestricted one, they're land bound to South / Southeast Asia's land mass. Can't load 'em on boats and send 'em to New Guinea, so he may as well use 'em in China / Burma / Malaya, whatever. They'll be there until he sees fit to buy 'em out-but that will take a while.




witpqs -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/3/2012 9:57:55 PM)

You can run Intel Monkey as soon as the replay is done. It only reads the files created by the combat replay/combat resolution.




BBfanboy -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/4/2012 3:03:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I will post a description of the second day, probably tomorrow, for tonight it is a moose's birthday, and revelry is planned. (Also take-out Chinese.)


Did you even realize how appropos that sounds after the discussion of losing China? Are you ordering from "One-Eyed Jack's Cantonese Cuisine"?[:D]




CaptBeefheart -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/4/2012 7:55:31 AM)

Moose: Glad to see you are doing an AAR. As a long-time AI player who is considering making the jump to humanity, I will be watching this closely.

Good luck!

Cheers,
CC




obvert -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/4/2012 11:12:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Probably the hardest part is not being able to immediatley start the next turn. I have thr eplay for Day 2, but no save yet. By the time I get it I'll have to re-watch the replay and study Tracker, which I can't load until I get the play file. I don't know how you do it with week-long gaps between turns sometimes. I see why people play multiple games, but I couldn't keep the strategies straight.

Overall, so far, I'm glad I tried PBEM. I had wrung out what an AI could do, pretty much.


The AAR helps a lot with delays. I often glance back to see what I was thinking, but more than that it focuses my thoughts in a way that keeps consistency from turn to turn. I just looked back after writing a report and realized I hadn't moved some newly arrived units to be shipped out, for example.

The waiting can be tough, though.




Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/4/2012 2:30:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
If he wants to bully me with that pile in China they aren't doing it somewhere else.


Until he changes their HQ to an unrestricted one, they're land bound to South / Southeast Asia's land mass. Can't load 'em on boats and send 'em to New Guinea, so he may as well use 'em in China / Burma / Malaya, whatever. They'll be there until he sees fit to buy 'em out-but that will take a while.


Good point. I am currently considering several macro-China strategic platforms. A lot of numbers to consider. In a no-HR game I think things like MLRs have to be re-examined.




Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/4/2012 2:31:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

You can run Intel Monkey as soon as the replay is done. It only reads the files created by the combat replay/combat resolution.


Installing The Monkey is on my list of things to do. Right now I'm just using 5 Days in Tracker.




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