RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (Full Version)

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Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/4/2012 2:32:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 I will post a description of the second day, probably tomorrow, for tonight it is a moose's birthday, and revelry is planned. (Also take-out Chinese.) Did you even realize how appropos that sounds after the discussion of losing China? Are you ordering from "One-Eyed Jack's Cantonese Cuisine"?[:D] Nah. The place is in Chaska. [:'(] (ChickenB will get it.)

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/4/2012 2:34:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Commander Cody Moose: Glad to see you are doing an AAR. As a long-time AI player who is considering making the jump to humanity, I will be watching this closely. Good luck! Cheers, CC Welcome! I'd say go for it, at least on a scenario. It does take more time, although not as much in a single sitting as playing seven AI turns in a row.

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/4/2012 2:36:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obvert quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 Probably the hardest part is not being able to immediatley start the next turn. I have thr eplay for Day 2, but no save yet. By the time I get it I'll have to re-watch the replay and study Tracker, which I can't load until I get the play file. I don't know how you do it with week-long gaps between turns sometimes. I see why people play multiple games, but I couldn't keep the strategies straight. Overall, so far, I'm glad I tried PBEM. I had wrung out what an AI could do, pretty much. The AAR helps a lot with delays. I often glance back to see what I was thinking, but more than that it focuses my thoughts in a way that keeps consistency from turn to turn. I just looked back after writing a report and realized I hadn't moved some newly arrived units to be shipped out, for example. The waiting can be tough, though. Yeah. I just realized I never opened the Industry manager in the Day 2 mega-turn. Chinese factories not tweaked, didn't check repair yard status, etc. Oh, well.

Galahad78 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/5/2012 10:42:37 AM)
Just discovered this AAR, it will be very interesting to see how an AI player (just like me [:)]) copes with a PBEM against an experienced player. I know that playing the AI only I'm taking lots of bad habits [:D][:D] Good luck!!

moore4807 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/5/2012 10:59:29 AM)
Interesting game format, lots of good commentary, chalk up another faithful reader! Best of Luck Moose!

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/5/2012 2:05:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Galahad78 Just discovered this AAR, it will be very interesting to see how an AI player (just like me [:)]) copes with a PBEM against an experienced player. I know that playing the AI only I'm taking lots of bad habits [:D][:D] Good luck!! Thank you.

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/5/2012 2:07:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: moore4807 Interesting game format, lots of good commentary, chalk up another faithful reader! Best of Luck Moose! Thanks. Two days of birthday, debates, no sleep, and strategy formulation. Today I hope to get the Day 2 replay up, and start work on the third turn my opponent helpfully sent me yesterday before work. Figuring out what to begin to do in China is making my head hurt.

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/5/2012 4:04:39 PM)
December 8, 1941 I do not have a format for this yet, but I think it's more important to get this up so I can start on the next turn. I will again be verbose, but expect over time to trim these entries down to something more focused. For now, as I get to know PBEMing as well as my opponent, I think it's valauble to have a record here for posterity. Overview This was a very good day for the Allies given it's the first week of the war. The Japanese took some major losses, as did the Allies, but the latter is expected. Operations near Pearl Harbor were particularly intense. I don't know if my opponent made reaction range errors through omission, but the US forces fought magnificently and inflicted heavy losses on Japan. However, there is increasing evidence that Mike is planning a bolt-from-the-blue invasion of one or more Hawaiian island sites. If so I would welcome that. Hawaii is important to be sure, but it can be peeled later on in 1942, it's devilishly hard for Japan to supply, and it would take a lot of force structure he needs elsewhere to take and hold. I expect a lot of the fighting to be in the Britsh/Dutch/Chinese map sectors in the first six months, not in the Pacific. And I don't commonly do much logistic movement westbound, so he won't get freebies unless he takes Perth. If he takes both Perth AND Hawaii I'm in sweat mode. Night Phase Busy, busy, busy. 1) Landings continued at KB, Miri, and Brunei with flaccid CD efforts. 2) The main action was at PH. A strong IJN surface TF either reacted or was ordered into PH itself. Minelayer USS Oglala, laying extra mines overnight, took the hit, sinking under strong gunfire. However, PH begins festooned with laid mines, and so . . . Night Time Surface Combat, near Pearl Harbor at 180,107, Range 10,000 Yards Japanese Ships BB Hiei BB Kirishima CA Tone DD Kagero DD Isokaze Allied Ships CM Oglala, Shell hits 4, and is sunk Improved night sighting under 85% moonlight Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 85% moonlight: 11,000 yards CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 10,000 yards Japanese launch Long Lance torpedoes at 10,000 yards before allies detect Japanese presence BB Kirishima fires at CM Oglala at 10,000 yards CM Oglala sunk by BB Hiei at 10,000 yards Combat ends with last Allied ship sunk... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TF 95 encounters mine field at Pearl Harbor (180,107) Japanese Ships CA Tone, Mine hits 1, heavy damage Magazine explodes on CA Tone Sunk ship sound effect heard, but I am unsure, on second replay, that it was Tone. Could have been for Oglala. But Tone is a mess at minimum. Later surface action found her home TF missing Tone plus DD Isokaze, presumably on Escort duty home. This theory strengthened by sub Gudgeon attacking Tone, shown with existing heavy damage, escorted by DD Isokaze. Mk14s missed. 3) USN CVs merge south of Johnson Island, heading east for San Diego for the moment. USS Indianapolis, minesweepers split away and sent toward PH, joins this large TF. CVs have air wings on zero range CAP and 1-hex ASW only. Trying to be quiet like mices. 4) Remaining IJN surface TF, ex-Tone and DD, attacks very large USN TF on guard at PH. Recall I had un-docked all but Support-class ships in PH after 12/7, deciding their flak assets were better used away from the pier. This may have caught Mike by surprise. In ensuing battle, USN loses 1 DD, but sets BB on fire. As important, this action eats away at Japanese ammo supplies, and BB reloads are far away. Night Time Surface Combat, near Pearl Harbor at 180,107, Range 10,000 Yards Japanese Ships BB Hiei BB Kirishima, Shell hits 6, on fire DD Kagero, Shell hits 1 Allied Ships CA Minneapolis, Shell hits 1 CL Raleigh, Shell hits 1 DD Ralph Talbot, Shell hits 3, heavy fires DD Cummings DD Case DD Conyngham DD Tucker DD Cassin, Shell hits 1 DD Selfridge DD Phelps DD Farragut DD Dewey DD Hull DD MacDonough DD Monaghan DD Aylwin DD Allen, Shell hits 3, and is sunk 5) In same hex as above, 180, 107, USS Minneapolis TF finds DD Isokaze ALONE, and sinks her in three attacks, middle one by minesweeper TF also on guard. More evidence CA Tone is sunk as well. Overall, a busy night for the US Navy. Day Phase 1) Series of surface battles near Hong Kong. I had flushed all surviving, non-burning ships from HK. Pre-war RN DDs sent in single-ship TFs toward Singers, on different routes. They acquitted themselves extremely well when set upon at 2:1 odds. Day Time Surface Combat, near Hong Kong at 75,65, Range 20,000 Yards Japanese Ships DD Ikazuchi DD Inazuma Allied Ships DD Thanet Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions: 28,000 yards CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 20,000 yards CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 20,000 yards Kudo, Shunsaku crosses the 'T' NO HITS. Day Time Surface Combat, near Hong Kong at 76,66, Range 14,000 Yards Japanese Ships DD Ikazuchi DD Inazuma, Shell hits 1 Allied Ships DD Thanet, Shell hits 2, on fire Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions: 28,000 yards CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 20,000 yards Range closes to 14,000 yards... CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 14,000 yards DD Ikazuchi engages DD Thanet at 14,000 yards Range closes to 9,000 yards DD Inazuma engages DD Thanet at 9,000 yards DD Ikazuchi engages DD Thanet at 9,000 yards Davies, E.S. orders Allied TF to disengage Range closes to 7,000 yards DD Inazuma collides with DD Ikazuchi at 76 , 66 OOOPS!! Day Time Surface Combat, near Hong Kong at 75,65, Range 20,000 Yards Japanese Ships DD Ikazuchi, Shell hits 1, on fire DD Inazuma, Shell hits 7, on fire Allied Ships DD Scout, Shell hits 1 Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions: 28,000 yards CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 20,000 yards CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 20,000 yards Lambton, H. crosses the 'T' 8:1 hit ratio. Mike posted a screenshoot in the Tech section of this IJN TF trying to make for Canton, right past an Allied Hong Kong. Probably a lot of the damage was from the collision, but the RN kicked some major booty as well. 2) Landings continue at KB, Miri, and Brunei. 3) Near Pearl the IJN has another of those days. I had sent USS Taney, a PC, out alone to scout. I was unsure if there were five, or six, carriers at PH and I needed eyes on in case the patrol planes were unable to find or spot the truth. Taney found a whole heap of trouble, but gave me the goods. Also got in a hit on Kaga (not at Mersing then) and got away with damage. The IJN also suffers yet another collision far from home: DD Kasumi collides with CL Abukuma at 180 , 104 [image]local://upfiles/31387/2B2C1F4A071245B891E2E13618C0E03C.jpg[/image] 4) In the worst action of the day, USS Houston is sunk by three Long Lance near Balabac. Attackers are surface TF of seven DDs and CL Naka. Houston scores six hits on Naka, including five penetrating 8in. shells. She may go down. Also leaves two DDs on fire. In retrospect and for my next game I will wait a day and merge Boise and Houston somewhere off their known first-turn tracks, and use them in concert rather than trying to sprint them to safety as I did with Boise. If she had been with Houston this IJN TF would be a smoking ruin now. Lesson learned. 5) USS Plunger finds yet another surface TF near Pearl with yet another CA. ASW attack near Pearl Harbor at 180,104 Japanese Ships CA Chikuma DD Urakaze DD Ushio DD Sazanami DD Arare DD Tanikaze Allied Ships SS Plunger 6) In series of air attacks, 5-ship TF at Georgetown loading base force for evac to Pt. Blair, is sunk by torpedos. Buffalos ineffectual. 7) Pin-** bombing of troops in eastern China, several locations. Training missions more or less. 8) Several moderate port attacks on Hong Kong. Fuel and supplies destroyed. Another point of repair yard damage. I have nothing left in HK except two burning merchants I may scuttle. Possibly these air assets would be better used on troops at HK. 9) Several Oscar sweeps here and there find no CAP to engage. 10) British Hudsons and Blenheims stage naval strikes in several Malaysian locations. One bomb hit on xAK in exchange for stiff losses. I will cease this use of these models and shift to other, probably night, missions. 11) USS Penguin begins her dash for freedom from Guam, heading NE for the broad wastes of the Pacific. Survives strike from Marianas. Go little penguin, go!! [;)] 12) Destruciton of PI air forces contines. Zero sweep on Clark at 23,000 achieves 1:3 loss ratio for Japan. Japanese aircraft losses A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed Allied aircraft losses P-35A: 1 destroyed P-40B Warhawk: 2 destroyed 13) In case of AI code over-reaction, Japan attacks Lahaina Roads in Hawaii and achieves not much. The galant defenders at Pearl tip their hats to the Mai Tai-drinking comrades on the Outer Islands. That's 43 Sons of Nippon attack planes PH flak didn't have to deal with. Afternoon Air attack on Lahaina , at 182,108 Weather in hex: Heavy rain Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 12 minutes Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 26 B5M1 Mabel x 4 B5N1 Kate x 12 B5N2 Kate x 27 [&o][&o][&o] Allied aircraft P-40B Warhawk x 2 No Japanese losses No Allied losses Allied Ships xAK Hoegh Merchant, Bomb hits 1, on fire Port supply hits 1 14) Attacks continue on Manila port in thunderstorms. 11,000 feet. 5:1 loss ratio in favor of Allies. Port hits = 1. Second attack at 9000 feet. 3:1 loss ratio in favor of Allies. No port hits. 14) Main effort air raid on PH. Large KB air wing losses, especially to Vals. Very minor damage. USS Arizona was not one of the severely damaged BBs on 12/7. US managed to get CAP of 93 mixed models airborne, and they did very well. Afternoon Air attack on Pearl Harbor , at 180,107 Weather in hex: Overcast Raid detected at 90 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 33 minutes Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 36 B5M1 Mabel x 2 B5N1 Kate x 21 D3A1 Val x 118 Allied aircraft P-26A x 1 P-36A Mohawk x 32 P-40B Warhawk x 53 F4F-3 Wildcat x 6 SNJ-3 Texan x 1 Japanese aircraft losses A6M2 Zero: 5 destroyed B5M1 Mabel: 1 destroyed B5N1 Kate: 3 destroyed, 3 damaged D3A1 Val: 24 destroyed, 21 damaged D3A1 Val: 2 destroyed by flak Allied aircraft losses P-26A: 1 damaged P-26A: 1 destroyed on ground P-36A Mohawk: 7 destroyed P-40B Warhawk: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged F4F-3 Wildcat: 1 destroyed B-17D Fortress: 1 destroyed on ground PBY-5 Catalina: 1 destroyed on ground A-20A Havoc: 1 destroyed on ground Allied Ships BB Arizona, Bomb hits 1 Allied ground losses: 3 casualties reported Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled Repair Shipyard hits 1 Airbase hits 9 Runway hits 7 15) More port attacks on Manilla claim two more subs sunk, S-boat plus USS Pickerel. Damage to USS Swordfish and USS Canopus. AP left on fire after first day now more on fire. Light air losses for both sides. 16) Second major raid on outer Hawaiian island, this time Lihue. Wonder if this was ordered as take-down of all Hawaiian bases? Afternoon Air attack on Lihue , at 178,106 Weather in hex: Moderate rain Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 8 minutes Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 11 B5N1 Kate x 12 B5N2 Kate x 44 Allied aircraft P-40B Warhawk x 1 No Japanese losses Allied aircraft losses P-40B Warhawk: 1 destroyed Port hits 3 Port fuel hits 1 Port supply hits 2 17) Misc. air strikes on HK and KB, without significant results. Hudsons find and attack BB Kongo near KB with no hits. 18) 4-plane B-17 strike near PH at 11,000 feet. One B-17 splashes, no hits. 8 SBD-1s ditto, no hits, one DB lost. 19) USS Plunger attacks two TFs with no hits. However, second reveals presence of at least two AOs with gaggle of TFs near PH. Also, air search has IDed at least six IJN subs squatting 1-2 hexes north of PH, presumably to snag sorties looking for the KB. 20) IJA takes Miri and Brunei with low losses. Defenders retreat into jungle. 21) KB falls with heavy Allied losses. Japanese ground losses: 114 casualties reported Squads: 0 destroyed, 10 disabled Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled Allied ground losses: 2164 casualties reported Squads: 84 destroyed, 11 disabled Non Combat: 39 destroyed, 2 disabled Engineers: 30 destroyed, 0 disabled Guns lost 15 (14 destroyed, 1 disabled) Vehicles lost 3 (3 destroyed, 0 disabled) Units retreated 3 Assaulting units: 56th Infantry Regiment 12th Engineer Regiment 5th JAAF AF Coy Defending units: FMSV Brigade 8th Indian Brigade 3rd ISF Base Force My Indian Army reconstitution plan just hit a snag. Thus endeth Day 2. Finishing, I do not plan to do another microscopic diary entry to match this, but it has been instructive for what I don't want to do going forward. Summary** 1) A bit of Allied head-scratching. What is he up to at Hawaii? 2) Amphib landing pace seems slow for second day. I see a few un-IDed TFs near the PI, but no landings there or Batan I. He must have a lot of TFs at sea going places I can't see. Intel wires are quiet. 3) Moves in China so far are not showing strat bombing effort, but that may come. I'm working on macro strategies for China, using some of the "helpful" comments here so far. [:)] A fair bit of number tumbling, trying to see trade-offs of going, staying, or staying in "abnormal" manner. 4) Wouldn't want to be a Japanese crewman on any cruisers this week. Three possible losses in two days. Ouch!!!

GreyJoy -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/5/2012 5:04:28 PM)
I'm pretty surprise you still had all that available CAp at PH on the 8th...but then again, when you want to make a second day raid at Pearl, always set Naval strike as first mission...just in case the allies are so "crazy" to try to come out of their harbour....[;)] The war hasn't started well for Japan

buutsy -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/5/2012 5:10:00 PM)
Ups, being a little late ... have a nice game ! BANZAI! Oh, wait a minute ...[:D]

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/5/2012 5:12:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GreyJoy I'm pretty surprise you still had all that available CAp at PH on the 8th...but then again, when you want to make a second day raid at Pearl, always set Naval strike as first mission...just in case the allies are so "crazy" to try to come out of their harbour....[;)] The war hasn't started well for Japan I've sortied out of PH with my CAs and DDs after Day 1 playing the AI, in pursuit of a retreating KB in those cases. Always had my head handed to me. I know of AARs where a sortie worked, but they are few. If I get clocked I want to be near the yard. The KB can wait for another day. It seems he's focusing in both Hawaii and the PI on air assets. He obviously doesn't know me! [:)]

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/5/2012 5:13:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: buutsy Ups, beeing a little late ... have a nice game ! BANZAI! Oh, wait a minute ...[:D] It's only two days. Long war. I think I'll look back at today as one of the good ones . . .

BBfanboy -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/5/2012 5:15:57 PM)
Hmmm - BBs Hiei and Kirishima and CAs Tone and Chikuma start the game as part of KB along with Abukuma and 8 or so DDs, for a total of 18 ships. There is another 4 DD TF set to bombard Midway. He must have sent those DDs with the BBs to reduce the KB TF size, and then created new TFs with Tone and Chikuma later. Note the graphic shows a CA with KB - must be Chikuma as Tone was already sunk. Also note Isokaze was initially with the BBs and then with Tone. It would appear KB is now escorted only by CL Abukuma [damaged] and several DDs. Edit: Correction - the TF that Plunger attacked [showing CA Chikuma] may have been part of KB rather than a separate TF. Still, without the BBs, KB is vulnerable to all the CAs buzzing around the PH area!

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/5/2012 5:35:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy Hmmm - BBs Hiei and Kirishima and CAs Tone and Chikuma start the game as part of KB along with Abukuma and 8 or so DDs, for a total of 18 ships. There is another 4 DD TF set to bombard Midway. He must have sent those DDs with the BBs to reduce the KB TF size, and then created new TFs with Tone and Chikuma later. Note the graphic shows a CA with KB - must be Chikuma as Tone was already sunk. Also note Isokaze was initially with the BBs and then with Tone. It would appear KB is now escorted only by CL Abukuma [damaged] and several DDs. Edit: Correction - the TF that Plunger attacked [showing CA Chikuma] may have been part of KB rather than a separate TF. Still, without the BBs, KB is vulnerable to all the CAs buzzing around the PH area! Agree with all of this. I had not thought of the Midway popgun TF I've seen the AI press on with. I would expect him to combine at least one BB, and maybe both, with the CVs now for AA purposes. The BBs may be a bit low on main battery ammo. I didn't count cycles in the gunfight with the Minneapolis TF. The Plunger attack on CA Chikuma TF looked like that TF was a stand-alone. Im thinking maybe a bombardment TF aimed at the Big Island where I expect a landing if one is planned. I need to modify my air plan for the next turn. If he lands on the Big I. he'll take it prety easily, but in that case I might very well risk a DD sortie to hit the beaches during unload. I also have PTs at PH unused. Also sub mines, but maybe too few to matter.

Q-Ball -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/5/2012 5:50:53 PM)
Especially if playing under DDB, 2nd day strikes at Pearl don't seem to be worth it anymore. In the "old" days, it was a good idea to pound Pearl Harbor several days in a row. Now, I think one and done is a better idea. For this reason, I would skip alot of the airfield bombing, and just go for shipping. Yeah, 250kgs bounce, but you can find enough smaller ships or at least start fires.

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/5/2012 5:56:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Q-Ball Especially if playing under DDB, 2nd day strikes at Pearl don't seem to be worth it anymore. In the "old" days, it was a good idea to pound Pearl Harbor several days in a row. Now, I think one and done is a better idea. For this reason, I would skip alot of the airfield bombing, and just go for shipping. Yeah, 250kgs bounce, but you can find enough smaller ships or at least start fires. His Val losses were "ouch." Tiny escort numbers on that one. Vals are good on the airfield, but PH doesn't have many small fry worth a bomb on 12/7, mostly minecraft. And Vals just start fires on BBs which USN DC puts out. If you want to kill BBs you have to use the Kates. And here he had them wandering over in Mai Tai Land. I'm confused. For my style of play, he should have skipped PH altogether and sent th eKB to Manila. Killing twenty subs on the first day would make me cry. The old BBs are fuel pigs and not that useful to me. Their repair densities and upgrade times are immense, even compared to the super-BBs. Maybe the original building plans were sold in the Depression for apples . . .

zuluhour -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/5/2012 8:16:26 PM)
I never thought I would want a second strike on Pearl. I learn something new all the time about this game. Just a thought, but I believe poor positioning of the Kido Butai led to the Kates straying to an outer island. Being the case it shows a lack of understanding on how CVTFs operate within the game, you may get lucky later if he repeats it in the Solomons or elsewhere.

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/7/2012 1:44:02 AM)
December 9, 1941 A normal December 1941 day for the Allies. Fleeing ships lost, still-not-understood events near Hawaii, a few bright spots. The invasion of the PI begins, but in moderate strenght. Still no indication if he will allocate equal force to Malaysia and the PI, or something else. Overall the pace of land operations is still slow compared to what the AI unleashes. I'm not sure if this means Mike is just slower, or if there are major hammers in transit I can't see. But every day of the amphib bonus used up is a good day. Night Phase 1) Palembang has been mined, and the night brings a trio of stinging attacks just outside the harbor by I-121 and I-122. Down go a light tanker and CM ProPatria. The third is a miss on an xAKL. Like he couldn't have missed ProP? 2) In response, USS Pollack lets fling at BB Kirishima retiring from Pearl to the NE with one DD. Misses, but it tells me the BBs did not join with the KB, at least not yet. 3) A 5-DD matched set doing clean up duty near Zambonaga savages a force of two AMs and two APs, sinking one xAP and heavily damaging an AM. In my next game I will be far more unpredictable about flight routes and I would encourage former AI players to be creative. (USS Penguin is aimed squarly at Marcus I. and was not attacked again.) Same DDs then hit lone fleeing AO Pecos, and sink her. For dessert they sink AS Holland and AM escort. 4) In experiment, I fly B-17s at night on naval attack at 8000 ft. No hits for six planes. I will try to buy these guys out and send them to Singers for anti-refinery duty. 5) PI landings at Apari and Vigan; pretty standard. I guessed wrong using much of my sub mine inventory on Lingayan. They're there, but he isn't. Yet. His landing forces are at about a 7:1 escorts to XAK ratio. He's brought W-class DMS assets. I have fleet boats inside both harbors; Porpoise attacks but misses and is worked over with medium lumps. Perch also attacks but escapes with no hits. Both attacks on escorts. Day Phase 1) CL Naka lives! She and two DDs, all making heavy black smoke near Balabac, attack and sink TK Gertrude Kellogg with 32 hits. TK was a stray from the PI making for Palembang with few hopes. I lift my spoonful of corn flakes in your honor, Ms. Kellogg. 2) Clean up crew of same five DDs near Jolo heavily damage xAK. She''ll sink. 3) Air attacks begin at Clark with yet another Zero sweep. I continue to meet them, but my morale levels are very low. 3:1 loss ratio for Allies. Oscar sweeps at Rangoon where I have moved all three AVG air units. Four Oscars fall for one AVG. 4) Series of Betty attacks score hits. Tacloban where I am trying to load stragglers to move across to Cebu to supply. Bombs, not torps, but random gods give me a massive explosion on xAKL. 5) Zero sweeps on Manila. Surprisingly good CAP makes it up. Flying P-40s high is working a bit better, but still 3:2 loss ratio against Allies. 6) Minor scale troop bombing in China continues. I think I'll stop mentioning this unless it's significant. 7) Stiffer bombing of HK continues, now shifted onto troops. Disablements only. Several Idas lost to flak. Majority of bombing at 6000 ft. 8) I risk a Cat torpedo attack on Legsapi. Score one torp hit on unloading heavy xAK. I won't make a habit of this, but naval search is only useful if you have something to hit back with, and that won't last long in the PI. If he has to CAP his TFs maybe my CAP can rest a bit from the sweeps. 9) Day Three at PH begins. The KB has moved several hexes NW since yesterday, at near the limit for Vals I think. First attack is Kate-heavy though. I can take this level of damage. My PH CAP is very tired and in low spirits, especially everyone NOT flying some kind of P-40. Morning Air attack on TF, near Pearl Harbor at 180,107 Weather in hex: Moderate rain Raid detected at 104 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 32 minutes Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 48 B5M1 Mabel x 2 B5N1 Kate x 36 D3A1 Val x 8 Allied aircraft P-26A x 5 P-36A Mohawk x 13 P-40B Warhawk x 31 F4F-3 Wildcat x 3 SNJ-3 Texan x 1 Japanese aircraft losses A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed B5M1 Mabel: 1 damaged B5N1 Kate: 1 destroyed, 8 damaged B5N1 Kate: 2 destroyed by flak D3A1 Val: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged D3A1 Val: 1 destroyed by flak Allied aircraft losses P-26A: 2 destroyed P-36A Mohawk: 1 destroyed P-40B Warhawk: 3 destroyed SNJ-3 Texan: 1 destroyed Allied Ships DM Pruitt DMS Chandler BB Tennessee BB California BB Nevada CL Raleigh DD Monaghan DD Cassin DD MacDonough DD Bagley CL Helena DD Dale DD Schley CA Minneapolis, Torpedo hits 1, on fire 10) Pete attacks in the PI hit AS Otus fleeing. Did he bring Petes in the initial landing? Do Petes fly off CVLs? Anybody? Not to be outdone, those crazy men in the Seagulls fly a naval attack mission and plant a 100 lb. bomb on APD Nadazaze near Legsapi. 11) Zero sweeps on AVG at Rangoon continue with 1:1 losses, but he can keep this up and I can't. The H81-A3 isn't a match for the Zero, no matter how good the pilot. 12) Bettys find and multi-attack my TF of old DDs surging from Manila for Lingayan. All miss, but I must do better at covering my surface TFs with LRCAP when possible. Another AI habit to break. I will reaim this TF at Vigan and see if I can mess up the beach a bit. 13) Bettys hit multiple small fry near Talcoban, sinking one and heavily damaging another xAKL. 14) In another odd attack, major strike pounds Lahaina again. 39 Zeros and 63 Kates splash two P-40s, but there's nothing there to bomb. There is a large gaggle of TFs due west of dot base Lanai. Search shows them as single ship TFs, but with no details. There appears to be two subs trailing, but I don't think both or maybe either are subs. This gaggle has moved east for two days, even as the KB appears to be withdrawing. What is it? I think it's time to go find out. [image]local://upfiles/31387/356E2107B1EC4D2CAD670D63986B934A.jpg[/image] 15) 24 Kates hit Lihue, again for no results. In both day phases near PH FOWed reports show 8-10 Vals on search shot down by CAP. FOWed plane losses to date show Val losses at 65, pretty stiff for this airframe in the early weeks. 16) Mini-KB attacks more refugees, sinking large xAP Neptune and heavily damaging AO Trinity. Kates using bombs. USS Boise had some good effect. 17) Porpise and a new S-boat continue harassment attacks on PI beaches without hits. Porpoise takes more damage. 18) Ground assault on HK drops forts by one, about 650 casualties on each side. More KIA for Allies. In PI, vacant Naga falls.

Gridley380 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/8/2012 6:03:48 PM)
Maybe I'm mis-remembering, but IIRC Taney is one of the few truly long-range escorts you have available in the early game. IMO she should be earmarked for convoy duty between the US West Coast and Oz, not making suicide recon runs. PT Boats are good for the latter.

Yaab -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/8/2012 9:38:38 PM)
Plus, PC Taney can do 4 hexes per phase at cruise speed. Valuable escort to those fast 16-17 knots xAKs. Pair her with DD Le Triomphant and you have a nice, long-legged, fast escort duo.

GreyJoy -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/8/2012 9:41:50 PM)
PC Taney also has 5inch guns if i remeber correctly... One of those PC/PG that are more like a battleship than an escort ship

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/8/2012 10:14:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gridley380 Maybe I'm mis-remembering, but IIRC Taney is one of the few truly long-range escorts you have available in the early game. IMO she should be earmarked for convoy duty between the US West Coast and Oz, not making suicide recon runs. PT Boats are good for the latter. Maybe. The KB was at the extreme range for PTs and I've had my share of them turn around and come back, or not go in a high air threat enviro. I wanted to know if I had 5 or 6 fleet cariers there. I thought it was a good risk. And Kaga took a hit and got fires which a PT would not have accomplished.

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/8/2012 10:16:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gridley380 Maybe I'm mis-remembering, but IIRC Taney is one of the few truly long-range escorts you have available in the early game. IMO she should be earmarked for convoy duty between the US West Coast and Oz, not making suicide recon runs. PT Boats are good for the latter. Addendum: I'm not planning on doing convoys between the WC and Oz unless I'm forced to by loss of western Australia. My thoughts on this are found in multiple places in the archives. I believe in using off-map to the max.

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/8/2012 10:17:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GreyJoy PC Taney also has 5inch guns if i remeber correctly... One of those PC/PG that are more like a battleship than an escort ship So Kaga found out. And she's not dead yet. May be soon, but she's that Escort TF there in the screenshot. I'd say ten days in would see her right if she makes port.

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/8/2012 10:26:09 PM)
Mike is traveling this week, so we won't get any turns in until Friday or the weekend. I'm using the time to really look at China. Have four possible macro strategies, each with different pros and cons, each with different levels of skill required to pull off. Mulling. For those interested I call them: 1) MLR 2) Atomization 3) Evacuation 3a) Evacuation and activation Rocky has top-lined comments, but I've asked him not to get into the weeds on numbers or such; I need to learn to do this on my own. His initial comments tell me I need to dig more into base forces and their devices, and to look more at HQ structures in China. But I have an initial idea of what I'm going to do in the first three months and I can get LCUs moving on this turn toward that end. After only three days I don't know what Mike has planned for China, but I'm going to do what's right for me and this game's skeleton of no HRs. If he sits back there's nothing that can't be modified next spring.

BBfanboy -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/9/2012 2:14:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GreyJoy PC Taney also has 5inch guns if i remeber correctly... One of those PC/PG that are more like a battleship than an escort ship Sounds to me liike you refer to Dutch PG Soerabaya, an old battleship with 4 x 11" [280 mm] guns. Definitely she is no longer worthy of being called a BB, but caller it a PG is a bit of a stretch. Should be a category for coastal monitors [big guns, shallow draft] in this game [for a RL example look up the British monitor Abercrombie].

Gridley380 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/9/2012 4:45:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 quote: ORIGINAL: Gridley380 Maybe I'm mis-remembering, but IIRC Taney is one of the few truly long-range escorts you have available in the early game. IMO she should be earmarked for convoy duty between the US West Coast and Oz, not making suicide recon runs. PT Boats are good for the latter. Addendum: I'm not planning on doing convoys between the WC and Oz unless I'm forced to by loss of western Australia. My thoughts on this are found in multiple places in the archives. I believe in using off-map to the max. I've tried that - inevitably my Cape Town -> Perth convoys encounter SS, AMC, or some 3rd rate IJN flat top halfway between Perth and the off map exit and get mauled. The Brits are even thinner on ASW platforms with long legs than the USN.

Gridley380 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/9/2012 4:55:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy quote: ORIGINAL: GreyJoy PC Taney also has 5inch guns if i remeber correctly... One of those PC/PG that are more like a battleship than an escort ship Sounds to me liike you refer to Dutch PG Soerabaya, an old battleship with 4 x 11" [280 mm] guns. Definitely she is no longer worthy of being called a BB, but caller it a PG is a bit of a stretch. Should be a category for coastal monitors [big guns, shallow draft] in this game [for a RL example look up the British monitor Abercrombie]. USCGC (United States Coast Guard Cutter) Taney was a Treasury-class cutter; most of them served in the Atlantic and were quite good U-boat killers. Excellent escorts, I'd rather have some of her sisters or USS Erie than a US Army division.

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/9/2012 5:14:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gridley380 quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 quote: ORIGINAL: Gridley380 Maybe I'm mis-remembering, but IIRC Taney is one of the few truly long-range escorts you have available in the early game. IMO she should be earmarked for convoy duty between the US West Coast and Oz, not making suicide recon runs. PT Boats are good for the latter. Addendum: I'm not planning on doing convoys between the WC and Oz unless I'm forced to by loss of western Australia. My thoughts on this are found in multiple places in the archives. I believe in using off-map to the max. I've tried that - inevitably my Cape Town -> Perth convoys encounter SS, AMC, or some 3rd rate IJN flat top halfway between Perth and the off map exit and get mauled. The Brits are even thinner on ASW platforms with long legs than the USN. I have Saratoga in San Diego and have no plans right now to move her into the Pacific. At Full speed off map she can be in CT pretty quickly. It may be that the CT--Perth run is very hard, maybe impossible. It's certainly single dimension. But even operating out of Java it's a fair long way for him to operate at too, especially if I route south. It may be a test of wills. What I really need to get out of CT in the short run is aircraft, and a lot of them aren't going to Perth. Unless there are sustained combat ops in Oz they can get by for awhile on the LI-produced supplies even if I have to turn HI production off.

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/9/2012 5:45:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 Mike is traveling this week, so we won't get any turns in until Friday or the weekend. I'm using the time to really look at China. Have four possible macro strategies, each with different pros and cons, each with different levels of skill required to pull off. Mulling. For those interested I call them: 1) MLR 2) Atomization 3) Evacuation 3a) Evacuation and activation Rocky has top-lined comments, but I've asked him not to get into the weeds on numbers or such; I need to learn to do this on my own. His initial comments tell me I need to dig more into base forces and their devices, and to look more at HQ structures in China. But I have an initial idea of what I'm going to do in the first three months and I can get LCUs moving on this turn toward that end. After only three days I don't know what Mike has planned for China, but I'm going to do what's right for me and this game's skeleton of no HRs. If he sits back there's nothing that can't be modified next spring. I'm going to start executing a modified Evacuation plan to pull significant forces west toward or into India. The Atomization plan, whereby I would split the Chinese infantry LCUs up into their smallest pieces and try a "swarm of bees" supply denial approach in southern and eastern China will fail IMO. I will try to establish not a classic MLR, but a bastion plan to give me time to get the body of the force out, or rather TO, the supplies which will let them grow fat for a return in 43-44. I think strong, supplied Chinese forces on the Indian rail network could be a useful flying wedge, and take garrison duty from the Indian Army so they can use their superior devices and tanks to work in Burma and/or NE India. One secondary objective of this is to also show that no-PPs to cross borders works in more than one way. In making this decision I've heavily relied on my own self-assessment of my abilitiy to really manage China, especially in the areas of supply, terrain, and rivers/shock rules. I've gone back and read AARs to see how various players have grown and evolved in how they play China. And I've also tried to factor in how much I have to do and learn as a whole in a first PBEM game. I concluded that trying an intricate, numbers-focused AV-fest in China is not something I think I can excel at right now. This strategy, like all of them, has risks. It gives away base capture VPs, and some of the Chinese bases are big that way. (But surprisingly, many are not that tasty for Japan.) While it strengthens India it also makes it more complex. It puts a bit of pressure on Indian supply generation, although Bombay and Calcutta, if they remain intact, are very large suppliers. It opens up Japanese strat bombing opportunities on the western side, and could lead to another invasion route into Burma and NE India without the need to risk or use sealift. And, if I lose Chungking, which is likely at some point, it freezes Chinese reinforcements, even though they will be queued and not permanently lost. On the plus side, it might make Mike over-confident if he sees me "fleeing", and this could lead to aggressive moves elsewhere on the board. In China itself he gets cities and VPs, but he must garrison them, and some of the larger cities eat up 30% of a division or a bit more. His supply will flow deeper into the interior, making it open to being severed when I counter-attack. And the base VPs without multipliers is not going to give him an auto-vic so far as I can tell, unless I am rolled up elsewhere on a large-scale basis. (I will build nothing in China except some Forts in selected areas.) To get the real VP bonanza he has to build up, and in that area he will have to make hard decisions about engineer deployments to China and away from the perimeter bases in the Pacific and DEI he needs to build up for LBA. Additionally, most of China offers only airbase builds and not ports, so the potential multiplier effect is lower. Finally, leaving might spare me some of the VP losses from huge Chinese retreat routs we commonly see in 1942 before they are fully TOEed and trained up a bit. I've read of too many city-based MLRs collapsing with 15,000-30,000 man losses. In many ways the cities in China are the most dangerous place to put the army given how the supply algorithms flow. The 3a option above, Evac and Activation, is probably a pipedream, but one I will keep in the back of my mind. It is a combo of the above, followed in 1943, probably later that year, of a Chinese drive east to pin the extended Japanese forces, including presumably some of the Manchurian garrison freed by the no-PP rules, coupled with a massive Allied invasion of mainland Asia, probably at Hong Kong, by joint US/Brit/Aussie infantry and armor focused on battering up into Manchuria with a goal of getting the garrison to 7999 for one turn. A Soviet activation wins the war. However, this would be a pure dice roll. Formosa LBA would need to be neutralized, and probably can't be without an invasion there first, which would telegraph the activation strategy. Formosa would take I estimate 6-9 months at least depending on where the staging base was and how he plays it between now and then. Allied losses would be staggering and could themselves lead to an auto-vic against in January 1944. For these reasons and others it's probably not going to happen. But I'll keep it on the board. So there it is. China . . . can't live with it, can't leave fast enough.

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