RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (Full Version)

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JocMeister -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (4/30/2013 9:47:48 AM)

What are your intentions with Burma? Going by your comments I take it you intend to set up a defensive line south of the central plains while reinforcing Java and Sumatra? Will you try and hold the line in the south or try and fight a delaying action slowly withdrawing North?

I would suggest (if you are not already doing this) that you start building up the Indian bases close to Burma (Dimapur/Kohima/Imphal/Katha). I have found that when they are built up they REALLY help with supply into Burma. This could allow you in the future to sustain a quite large army in Burma without depending on Ramree Island for supply.




Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (4/30/2013 2:38:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

What are your intentions with Burma? Going by your comments I take it you intend to set up a defensive line south of the central plains while reinforcing Java and Sumatra? Will you try and hold the line in the south or try and fight a delaying action slowly withdrawing North?

I would suggest (if you are not already doing this) that you start building up the Indian bases close to Burma (Dimapur/Kohima/Imphal/Katha). I have found that when they are built up they REALLY help with supply into Burma. This could allow you in the future to sustain a quite large army in Burma without depending on Ramree Island for supply.




My intentions are colored by what he does to some extent. Burma has only two real strategic purposes in 1942:

1) Deny him the oil he really wants to feed Rangoon's refineries

2) Tie up very large Japanese LCU resources with relatively cheap (Chinese) and relatively dear (Brit/Aussie) units that have no other good jobs to do in this era.

I would be content to stay where I am for the foreseeable future. Hold at Toungoo, Prome, Bassein, withdraw from the Chiang Mai sector, continue to fortify Lashio. He may allow that if he needs the Rangoon stack elsewhere. I would expect him to contiue to sweep in Burma; one of my personal challenges is to not bite and waste fighters here, hard as that is to do.

If he really wants to fight I would be content to do a fighting, bleeding withdrawl to the Imphal line by January 1943 if that means he has less to throw at Sumatra and Java. All the oil in Burma isn't a teacup compared to Palembang and Soerbaja.

I've been building Imphal since January. Slow going, but it's getting there. About 8000 supply there every day. The other bases you name have had less done. My engineers are mostly forward at places like Ramree and Chittagong. As I begin to get more Seabees (only have two units now, one in transit to CT) some will head for Asia.

Ramree I see more as a flanker base with big forts, and a 4-5 AF. It has no port, and probably never will. It's 0(0). I don't have any amphibs, so delivering a lot of supply there is hard when he has torpedo bombers at Rangoon. Ramree is useful, but a lot more later when you have LSTs.

I'm going to continue to strat bomb in the general region as long as I can. China in particular is very flammable.

Longer term I have some ideas. I don't want to discuss yet, except to say I don't want to slog through the DEI if I can help it. You know from my comments in your AAR how I feel about that. This game is about VPs and winning, not "feeling good about myself." The DEI nest plays explicitly to Japan's game advantages in aircraft. I don't want to get involved if I can help it. There are better routes to VPs.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (4/30/2013 5:52:57 PM)

April 30, 1942

End-of-the-Month Club

I like last days, especially when tomorrow I get a new plane build scheme, sometimes some new models (Avengers!), a whole bunch of new ship upgrades, and the end of another month of Allied Hell Year.

File things got bolluxed up today. Mike sent the turn, no movie. I caught him before his work and I got the movie, but now I have to run an emergency errand and my battery is dead. So, I have exaclty as long to write this as a quick charge takes. Fortunately it was a snoozer of a day.

1) Sub on DD in the Malacca Straits, shallow water, boom boom, no hits, no fun. Posts this morning on sub portion of the game have me depressed on this today. So, moving on . . .

2) Night strat bombing missions mostly go astray or sit. Keep trying. One does launch on Changsha, and does some burning.

Night Air attack on Changsha , at 82,52

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Allied aircraft
Wellington Ic x 6

No Allied losses

Manpower hits 1
Fires 355

3) Oil misison on Babo does 1 Oil hit.

4) Bombing returns to Palembang. CAP pretty leaky. A fair number of night mission bombers are there, but by day they are on the ground and several are lost. A few Japanese to flak. One thing I want to do is pull Japanese escorts and sweepers off the key bases to defend the strat bombing. Japan has no "right" to freely bomb just because it's 1942. Also, FOW losses tell him some TBs were hit at P., but there are none there. If he thinks there are, good. To help the illusion Albacores do fly from Soerbaja and hit Sampit's port. Mostly because I forgot to turn them off.

5) Up north the MKB has continued on up the coast almost to the height of Moulmein. Kates hit Port Blair and sink two xAKs unloading, and the Zeroes get two Huricanes. Dreaming of enough CAP to do a damn . . . Later, after it doesn't matter, a Zero sweep costs Japan three for two Hurricanes.

6) Prome is swept and one fighter each is lost. I expect some probing will happen up here for a few days at least. Japan sends a lone tank brigade to attack Bassein, across the river. A Chinese corps has arrived in strat mode, but is not unpacked. The attack is repulsed, but he gets valuable intel.

Ground combat at Bassein (54,52)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 1350 troops, 12 guns, 192 vehicles, Assault Value = 101

Defending force 10004 troops, 40 guns, 18 vehicles, Assault Value = 374

Japanese adjusted assault: 33

Allied adjusted defense: 30

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 1)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 0

Combat modifiers
Defender: forts(+), op mode(-), preparation(-), fatigue(-)
experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+), leaders(+), leaders(-), fatigue(-)

Allied ground losses:
91 casualties reported
Squads: 6 destroyed, 5 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Assaulting units:
7th Ind.Tank Brigade

Defending units:
RM Viper Force
43rd Cavalry Regiment
60th Chinese Corps

7) Other stuff:

Two USN carriers come out of upgrade, giving me four again. Big E is about two weeks out.

West Virginia is almost to SF, float down to 52 again. Two RN BBs are fixed at Colombo, and 17 engine damge is fixed in one day on a CA there. Arizona is close. Slowly I'm getting a navy back.

Sabang is probe bombed, but no sign of the small TF seen yesterday. Currently there is a lot of recon of Ramree.

Forts go to 2 at Prome. Also 2 at Christmas Island.



witpqs -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (4/30/2013 6:25:37 PM)

You should just replace your battery every year when your antlers fall off.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (4/30/2013 6:53:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

You should just replace your battery every year when your antlers fall off.


When that happens it's my signal to get ready to watch the Twins ascend to mid-last place in the division.

I've charged this battery three times this winter. Tells you how much I get out. [:)]

Two inches of slush predicted tonight! May! Wheeeee!



Canoerebel -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (4/30/2013 7:03:43 PM)

Moose, I overheard my wife talking to our Minnesota friend after Sunday school. Wife was telling Miss Minnesota (very nice lady who has lived in Georgia 20 years now) about a young man from Florida we talked to on Saturday. He's marrying a Minnesota lass and they're going to live in Florida.

"Oh," said our Minnesota Friend, "she's going to LOVE IT down there."

"Seriously?" my wife asked.

"Oh, yeah." Minnesota Friend went on to describe the horrors of living in Minnesota - even in the warm months with bugs. Made me feel good to be a southerner.



Lecivius -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (4/30/2013 8:29:10 PM)

"The Boundary Waters Canoe Area. As much as you like hiking you REALLY need to google this. "

Don't have to. I run a scout troop. Great place! Skeeters the size of sparrows, though [X(]



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (4/30/2013 8:36:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Moose, I overheard my wife talking to our Minnesota friend after Sunday school. Wife was telling Miss Minnesota (very nice lady who has lived in Georgia 20 years now) about a young man from Florida we talked to on Saturday. He's marrying a Minnesota lass and they're going to live in Florida.

"Oh," said our Minnesota Friend, "she's going to LOVE IT down there."

"Seriously?" my wife asked.

"Oh, yeah." Minnesota Friend went on to describe the horrors of living in Minnesota - even in the warm months with bugs. Made me feel good to be a southerner.


Well, I spent almost every summer of my life in either VA or the Carolinas, and I'll take January here. Big guys sweat.

Also, two words--coral snakes. [:)]

There are places in the south I could almost stand if I had a gun to my head. Shenandoah Valley. Research Triangle. Couple of others. But Florida? Heck, that place is as bad as SoCal. A basically disfunctional society and economy. Really needs to be at least four states: Panhandleredneckomania, South Georgia, North Cuba, and Disneyville. IMO of course. [:'(]



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (4/30/2013 8:37:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

"The Boundary Waters Canoe Area. As much as you like hiking you REALLY need to google this. "

Don't have to. I run a scout troop. Great place! Skeeters the size of sparrows, though [X(]


Don't scouts still make illegal slingshots?



Lecivius -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (4/30/2013 9:13:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Don't scouts still make illegal slingshots?



[sm=innocent0009.gif]



jmalter -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (4/30/2013 10:57:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
Don't scouts still make illegal slingshots?

i thought potato-mortars were the current weapon of choice.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (5/1/2013 12:26:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
Don't scouts still make illegal slingshots?

i thought potato-mortars were the current weapon of choice.


These kids today, with their hair and their mortars . . .

In my day you ATE the potatoe ** and you were THANKFUL FOR IT!!!!


** Dan Quayle Memorial Spelling



erstad -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (5/1/2013 2:59:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

"The Boundary Waters Canoe Area. As much as you like hiking you REALLY need to google this. "

Don't have to. I run a scout troop. Great place! Skeeters the size of sparrows, though [X(]


Yeah, the first time you see one of those skeeters carry off a small child, it's a little disconcerting. But then you get used to it. Builds character, we say.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (5/1/2013 3:52:36 PM)

0950
Wednesday, May 1, 2013

It is snowing in the Twin Cities.

Forecast for tonight is a possible 6-9 inches. In records going back to 1891 it has never snowed ore than 2 inches in May in the TC.

It was 86 F. last Sunday at our house.

We are breaking the planet.



witpqs -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (5/1/2013 4:12:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

0950
Wednesday, May 1, 2013

It is snowing in the Twin Cities.

Forecast for tonight is a possible 6-9 inches. In records going back to 1891 it has never snowed ore than 2 inches in May in the TC.

It was 86 F. last Sunday at our house.

We are breaking the planet.


No. Our records are puny. 122 years does not even extend back to the end of the "Little Ice Age" cold period.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (5/1/2013 4:42:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

0950
Wednesday, May 1, 2013

It is snowing in the Twin Cities.

Forecast for tonight is a possible 6-9 inches. In records going back to 1891 it has never snowed ore than 2 inches in May in the TC.

It was 86 F. last Sunday at our house.

We are breaking the planet.


No. Our records are puny. 122 years does not even extend back to the end of the "Little Ice Age" cold period.


I don't plan to live long enough to find out if we're in a new Age of any kind. But OTOH is it snowing where you are? [8D]



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (5/1/2013 5:00:19 PM)

I'll insert a note here, given the daily diary nature of this AAR. I won't go into exact email exchanges as those are private and it's not up to me to divulge Mike's words. He may be talking about this in his AAR. But my thoughts are on topic here.

Night Manpower attacks.

I'm doing them, and Mike is, umm, very unhappy.

To be clear, he has said several times in the last two days that he knows there are no rules against them in our game. I have (in I hope a joshing manner) pointed out the title of his AAR. He is still upset although he says he will deal with them.

For the record, my arguemnts:

1) The economy of both sides is a valid military target, from the first move to the last.

2) I am attacking the Japanese economy on a number of levels, not only night Manpower attacks.

3) The game is asymmetric to begin with, and becomes more so as the OOBs evolve. The Allies cannot match Japan in many areas in 1942. This by design and historic. But conversely there is no obligation on either player to "allow" or "gift" his opponent a tactic if he has a counter to it. If one side has leverage it is fine to use it to further game objectives, or to deny the other player a related advantage he possesses.

4) Mike says night Manpower bombing would require he set up night CAP, and he has no night fighters until mid-1943. I responded that regular non-night models work pretty well. The AI uses them extensively, often Nates. At minimum they break up a raid and decrease effectiveness. In fact, in the May 1 movie, about to be described below, he used a night CAP of Zeroes at Rangoon and turned back two Allied Manpower raids.

The crux is he doesn't WANT to have to do this. He wants all his fighter groups for daylight sweeps and escort. I didn't say I want a pony ([:)]), but that it's my job to deny him what he wants to do as much as I can. And that the reason the Allies didn't do night Manpower bombing in the PTO in 1942 was due to them being pushed out of range. Not because Bomber Harris or the residents of London didn't know what they were.

I also said he is free to do the same to me, and he has far more bombers. Of course Japan normally doens't want to do this to territory they hope to own soon, but the truth is it sometimes makes tactical sense to burn out the Allies' local supply sources and rebuild them later. It's his choice, but the choice is available.

5) The last email left things in what I think is a tense position of each side stating its case, but there still being hard feelings on his part. If so, I'm sorry. I wish that were not the case. But it is what it is.



witpqs -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (5/1/2013 5:32:16 PM)

No snow here, the Jet Stream has been mostly north of us so almost all those storms this year missed us on their way to you. [:D] While temperatures overall seem likely to dip in the coming years, a return to the glaciers covering North America is thought to be much farther out (maybe a couple of thousand years). One group that published their findings a few months ago concludes that the marker for the beginning of that process is when polar ice begins to oscillate (ice at one pole increases while ice at the other pole decreases, then the process reverses, and so on). They looked at the past 5 or 6 glaciations/ice ages to discern the pattern. They noted that same pattern began again roughly 2,000 years ago. But I think you and I will only see that future in movies. [8D]



witpqs -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (5/1/2013 5:38:39 PM)

Is it really a pony that you want or would you settle for a mature riding horse? I have a neighbor who is trying to unload hers. He's a nice looking white horse, so you could be the white knight on his trusty steed for GOTP (did I get that acronym right?). [;)]



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (5/1/2013 5:46:04 PM)

May 1, 1942

Let's Go Night Bombing, Kids!

So. What happened?

1) AIR NIGHT STRIKES
3 x No.45 Sqn RAF Blenheim IV stray due to night
2 x No.113 Sqn RAF Blenheim IV stray due to night
4 x 22nd BG/2nd BS B-26 Marauder stray due to night
4 x 7th BG/436th BS LB-30 Liberator stray due to night

That's a good bit of what I ordered right there. No effect.

2) Night Air attack on Shaoyang , at 80,52

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 6 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 1 minutes

Allied aircraft
A-29A Hudson x 3

No Allied losses (No results either.)

---------------
Night Air attack on Makassar , at 65,106

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 11 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 3

Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 1 damaged

Manpower hits 1
Fires 305
----------------------------
Night Air attack on Kweilin , at 76,54

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 27 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Allied aircraft
Wellington Ic x 8

No Allied losses

Manpower hits 18
Fires 10425 (This is the one that got to him I suspect.)
----------------------------------
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid spotted at 49 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 16 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 1 (NOTE WELL)

Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 3

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim IV: 1 damaged

Raid foiled. Did not require night fighters.
-------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid spotted at 13 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 1

Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 2

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim IV: 1 damaged

Raid foiled.
----------------------
Night Air attack on Pontianak , at 56,90

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 49 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-26 Marauder x 4

No Allied losses

Manpower hits 1
Fires 695
----------------------------
Night Air attack on Saigon , at 60,71

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 19 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Allied aircraft
LB-30 Liberator x 4

Allied aircraft losses
LB-30 Liberator: 1 damaged

No damage. Had hopes for this one.
-----------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Boela , at 80,110

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid spotted at 16 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 5

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged

Resources hits 11 (Daytime. Resources, not Oil.)

3) Heavy sweeps at Palembang, 48 fighters, followed by moderate bombing. No CAP.

4) Port Blair hit hard by multipe raids and platforms. CAP is very light; may withdraw it tomorrow. The MKB is still around. 61 Zero sweep, followed by Mavis attacks which torpedo and sink 2 AMs and a DE (which hurts.) AF bombing takes out five British fighters on the ground. The MKB Kates torpedo another AM near Ramree. I think this force should be low on torpedoes, but the unlimited torpedo bug corrected by the last beta has me concerned it is in full supply. (Mike does not want to update to the current beta.) I have RN carriers in position to the west to intercept this MKB if it really were low on torpedo sorties, but with the issue in doubt I don't dare.

5) Heavy sweeps on Chungking knock down a bunch of Chinese biplane models and two modern fighters for a total of nine. I have 4Es here doing night bombing; they need to be shuttled out tonight. More normal base bombing on Chengtu does little damage.

6) In Burma air battles rage over Prome. An Ida strike loses 8 planes to CAP and AA. The Chinese corps in strat mode at Bassein begins unpacking and the tank brigade does not re-attack. There might be time. The heavy units coming from the north continue to march. The two corps stacked across the river from Chiang Mai arrives at the jump off and rests. The third is still far to the north. Chiang Mai shows about 80 AFVs, but it is an AF 4 with a lot of planes, so much of the 4000ish troops are non-combat. Still undecided on what to do here.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (5/1/2013 5:50:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Is it really a pony that you want or would you settle for a mature riding horse? I have a neighbor who is trying to unload hers. He's a nice looking white horse, so you could be the white knight on his trusty steed for GOTP (did I get that acronym right?). [;)]


I weigh over 300 in my socks, so, animal abuse? [:)]

GOTP is six feet tall and not at all overweight. (Oh my, no!) She had about six ponies/horses growing up on the farm at various times. I know one would meet her at the school bus way off yonder and she would ride bareback home to the farm. Just like my youth in the suburbs! Not.

When we retire she wants a draft horse for a pet. She's already decided to call her "Sally."



Simonsez -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (5/1/2013 9:04:14 PM)

Regarding manpower bombings.

I see no reason for either side to abstain from manpower bombings, but I believe that "where this takes place" is extremely important. While targeting your enemy's "home" cities in manpower raids is a legitimate war aim, I do find it rather hard to argue in favor of bombing your ally’s' home cities in manpower raids. After all, you are not targeting enemy civilians, but allied civilians. It's going to be awfully hard to win a war that way and if you do - what spoils are left to the victor? To me, manpower raids targeting allied or non-aligned cities should entail some sort of PP penalty, because there would be political hell to pay at home and abroad for pursuing this strategy.

Interesting to discuss and caused me to read up a little as a reminder on the actual bombing strategies used by the US and the Allies in both the European and Pacific Theaters. The US started out with precision, daylight strategic bombings in 1943 in Europe and by the end of 1944, began to plan and execute "manpower/morale" raids in addition to precision, strategic raids. In the Pacific, we started off with daylight, precision strategic raids and within 3 or 4 months had transitioned to primarily "manpower", low level nighttime raids over the Japanese home islands which of course culminated with the dropping of the atomic bombs to end the war.



Lecivius -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (5/1/2013 9:48:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
Don't scouts still make illegal slingshots?

i thought potato-mortars were the current weapon of choice.


Actually, Trebuchets are In Vogue. [sm=sterb020.gif][sm=fighting0020.gif]



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (5/1/2013 9:54:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Simonsez

Regarding manpower bombings.

I see no reason for either side to abstain from manpower bombings, but I believe that "where this takes place" is extremely important. While targeting your enemy's "home" cities in manpower raids is a legitimate war aim, I do find it rather hard to argue in favor of bombing your ally’s' home cities in manpower raids. After all, you are not targeting enemy civilians, but allied civilians. It's going to be awfully hard to win a war that way and if you do - what spoils are left to the victor? To me, manpower raids targeting allied or non-aligned cities should entail some sort of PP penalty, because there would be political hell to pay at home and abroad for pursuing this strategy.

Interesting to discuss and caused me to read up a little as a reminder on the actual bombing strategies used by the US and the Allies in both the European and Pacific Theaters. The US started out with precision, daylight strategic bombings in 1943 in Europe and by the end of 1944, began to plan and execute "manpower/morale" raids in addition to precision, strategic raids. In the Pacific, we started off with daylight, precision strategic raids and within 3 or 4 months had transitioned to primarily "manpower", low level nighttime raids over the Japanese home islands which of course culminated with the dropping of the atomic bombs to end the war.



If there were a comprehensive political underbelly to the game I'd be all for that. There isn't. The code makes Manpower the only way to start fires, even though what I'm after is HI/LI/Refineries. Same bombs (no incendiaries in the game's DB), different results. Bombing HI/LI at night gets you nothing. So I do what gets me something. I figure if he can intercept my night bomebrs with Nates (imaginary) I can bomb (imaginary) civilians.

As far as strategic bombing in Europe, don't stop with the US. Start with the Brits in 1940. They had some other ideas.



jmalter -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (5/1/2013 9:57:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Simonsez
To me, manpower raids targeting allied or non-aligned cities should entail some sort of PP penalty, because there would be political hell to pay at home and abroad for pursuing this strategy.

I'll agree that such raids could be politically damaging. In the ETO, some attention was paid to this potential problem, such as in the run-up to D-day, when raids against French rail-yards were increased, risking French civilian casualties, given the fact that 'daylight precision bombing' wasn't strong on 'precision'.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (5/1/2013 10:14:47 PM)

May 2, 1942

The First Night After The Talking

So, after a flurry of email, we continue. I altered a few things, he did too. Which is what I'm after. I don't want to be predictable.

We also agreed to update to the April 1, 2013 beta after I watch this movie. May 3 will be with the beta. This is one behind the latest, so it does not address the torpedo inventory issue.

1) Showing once again that night bombing is no panacea (I won't show this again; I think the point is made):

AIR NIGHT STRIKES
3 x 3-Vl.G.III B-25C Mitchell stray due to night
8 x No.215 Sqn RAF Wellington Ic stray due to night
6 x 22nd BG/2nd BS B-26 Marauder stray due to night
6 x 7th BG/436th BS LB-30 Liberator stray due to night
3 x 7th BG/HqS LB-30 Liberator stray due to night

2) Strike on Shaoyang hits nothing. Night bombing of Djambio oil hits nothing. Night bombing Singers meets 17 angry Oscars, hits nothing, 2 B-25C damaged. Night bombing Kweilin hits something: 22 hits for 13888 fires. Ouch. Another Djambi oil: nothing. Another Singers: 13 angry Oscars, 1 Oscar downed, 2 Liberators damaged, no damage. End of night bombing. We will contiue to play with the variables.

3) The MKB hangs around Pt. Blair causeing all sorts of trouble again. Combined with LBA Pt. Blair dogfights are 5:2 against for the Allies. Prome is even in the morning, then intense ini the PM. I imagine there is an attack coming at Prome sooner or later; it's on the "wrong" side of the river for me. Sabang gets a lot of attention; a couple of Hudsons are damaged. I don't know if Sabang is a feint or normal landing prep. The CAP at Chungking is whacked again, biplanes falling like flies. Kicking kittens. I've got nowhere better to put them, and they do shoot down an Oscar. Palembang gets light bombing; Forts 5 to 50%.

The 2-stack in the jungle south of Chiang Mai is seen and bombed twice by Nells. No damage at all to the infantry, but he knows they're there, which is good.
The hapless Idas are thrown at Toungoo with escorts. Just infantry organic flak, no AA LCU, and 2 fall with 3 damaged. Not a good life insurance risk, Ida duty.

The MKB hits ships unloading at Ramree. Two xAKs are hit by bombs, one sinks. At Pt. Blair another xAK is torpedoed by Kates and sinks.

Seriously, paging through the combat reports there are about 40 air strikes today. Like a spasm of Japanese flying. I think everything that could fly did, except Mavises. It's annoying to watch a replay for twenty minutes with nothing but Japanese dominance over 2 or 3 Allied fighters, but what I really care about is marching troops, and they were left completely alone. A lot of metal is coming to Prome and Bassein if time is granted. Everybody on the Burma coast is well-supplied. I can pull back the ships deeper toward Calcutta and be fine for weeks.

Wondering what's coming for Sumatra though.



Encircled -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (5/1/2013 11:05:07 PM)

Talking of white horses...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzYzVMcgWhg



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (5/2/2013 10:48:51 PM)

May 3, 1942

Operation SWEET POLLY Begins

1) Sweet Polly Purebred, Underdog's girlfriend, is the inspiration for the operation to reclaim Palmyra Island.



[image]local://upfiles/31387/DB6D345354B6430F9FB73206FCA81630.jpg[/image]

The evolution will be straight-forward. Four USN CVs left Pearl today, slighty over-loaded with fighters at the expense of now-obsolete TBs. Palmyra has been seen taking on both fighters and bombers, and recons as having both, plus a few Auxiliaries. Currently there is a TF there which shows as only a CVE and an APD. That is not what it is of course, but I think it is reasonable it has carriers. If it's the KB there will be a fight. If it is he's sending his best force to nowheresville, however. I suspect he's thinking of upgrading in the HI pretty soon and then sending the KB to Asia to accelerate the taking of needed territory. It's a waste watching Hawaii at this point. It's more likely the KB is in the HI or headed there.

Palmyra has mines, so a 3-DMS force will follow the carriers by a day. A bombardment force of two old BBs, a CL, and DDs will follow. (The rest of the BBs are with the CVs, trading speed for AA. I'm low on CAs due ot upgrades and ships sent to CT.) A day or two after that the first wave landing force, heavy APs (not xAPs) with two Marine Raider units and a combat engineer. I suspect Palmyra has only base forces plus maybe a Naval Guard unit. If it has more a second wave will trail in xAPs. This is an independant infantry regiment. There is a Fast Transport TF of APDs with 1200 supply, and a heavier xAK TF with only supply which will go with the first wave. No base forces are being sent with the landing forces. Once Palmyra is secure I will either send one, or transfer the small units already in the area (Penhryn I. and the other one I can't recall now.)

I suspect the base has Bettys/Nells. I hope it doesn't have a torpedo HQ, but it might if its purpose was to interdict Oz-bound convoys.

2) Fun and games in the air today. Batavia AF is night-bombed. No damage to field or aircraft and three Bettys are damaged, but the point is taken. Well done, Japan!

The Allies night hit Makassar and Rangoon for no damage. Day Manpower bombing at Hengyang for 5 Hits and 1370 Fires. Oil bomb Djambi (no hits) and Samarinda (2 hits.) Hit the port at just-taken Aitape, but find no ships.

3) Japan is much busier. The MKB is slightly north of Rangoon sniping at Akyab and Ramree. Many LBA attacks and sweeps all over the region. Prome is swept (3 Oscars lost, 1 P-40), Sabang is heavily swept and bombed by 53 multi-engine, although there is no air activity there but damaged Hudsons, Chungking is swept, but the CAP has been mostly moved or withdrawn, the Chinese south of Chiang Mai are heavy-bombed twice. They are ordered to attack across the river; the last read on CM shows no AFVs and only enough troops to support an AF.

Japan also hits Pt. Blair heavily, perhaps to supress so it can't escort TBs on the MKB as anything else. Losses are even at 3 each. A later raid gets a Beest on the gorund and downs two Sallys. A sub comes in and sinks an HDML. All of the merchants have been sent elsewhere. The same at Ramree.

The MKB uses Vals for the first time to hit targets ashore at or near Ramree. Three are lost for no Allied fighters. This TF should be getting a bit low on sorties; the RN carriers are hunting them from the west, but do not make contact. Hoping their TBs can get through and send this TF back to Singers. Maybe if they do the RN's steel decks will keep the damage low. I don't want the Bay of B. to be a Japanese lake; I need to keep Pt. Blair viable. Force Z is in position to hit any Sabang landing, although its fuel situaiton is not optimal.

4) A single Allied DD bombards Padang on Sumatra's west coast. It is empty. The offshore island taken last week is as well. I may have to scare up something to sit on Padang to at least close the door from a walk in.

5) Some armor has arrived at Prome and been sent on to Bassein. More is coming. The Chinese corps at Bassein unpacked rapidly, and a good thing. Also it's good that river is there:

Ground combat at Bassein (54,52)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 13190 troops, 122 guns, 47 vehicles, Assault Value = 561

Defending force 9994 troops, 40 guns, 20 vehicles, Assault Value = 373

Japanese adjusted assault: 141

Allied adjusted defense: 202

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 1)

Combat modifiers
Defender: forts(+), leaders(+), preparation(-), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
397 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 28 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled

Allied ground losses:
54 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 17 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Vehicles lost 9 (9 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Assaulting units:
7th Ind.Tank Brigade
6th Guards Division

Defending units:
43rd Cavalry Regiment
RM Viper Force
60th Chinese Corps



desicat -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (5/2/2013 10:56:08 PM)


quote:



Sweet Polly Purebred, Underdog's girlfriend, is the inspiration for the operation to reclaim Palmyra Island.


The secret compartment of my ring I fill,
With an Underdog Super Energy Pill!

This operation won't be over until it is really over!



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (5/2/2013 11:35:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: desicat


quote:



Sweet Polly Purebred, Underdog's girlfriend, is the inspiration for the operation to reclaim Palmyra Island.


The secret compartment of my ring I fill,
With an Underdog Super Energy Pill!

This operation won't be over until it is really over!



A great Sweet Polly montage! Thanks.

Of course, today the pill would be blue and have a 'V' on it. [8D]



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