RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (Full Version)

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Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/24/2012 1:43:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Force Z is too far away to catch up with a 30 kt BB TF.
I don't know what port the IJN holds on the South China Sea, but it is usual IJN practice to move up some AKEs to a forward base so they can rearm quickly. I would suspect Miri, if he holds it, because it can provide fuel as well.


I slept on this situation, and you are right about the distance. Unless he stuck around, which I don't think he will.

There's no AKE at Miri or Brunei. I'm bombing both, Miri just today. I think Saigon's river won't permit BBs, right? Is Cam Rahn large enough to rearm without an AKE at scenario start? I suppose he could run across northern Java, past Soerbaja to Babel-de-bob, but that would be a lot more dangerous than Formosa.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/24/2012 1:48:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Personally I think the PoW is about the only thing you cannot afford to lose in the SRA. Fast BBs are invaluable and even though you are playing stock game with almost non existant AA it can still disrupt strikes and at least eat a few torps/bombs that could have hit CVs instead.

It very easy to unintentionally get within Nell range caused by reaction settings or run into unsighted convoys that eat up OPS. Force Z can be very useful but donīt throw it away. In my first game I ran into a 4BB TF. That was bad news...[:(]


I know POW was pretty near the most modern BB in the world when the war started, fire-control and AA-wise. I've only had her survive the first day once in an AI game. I would be willing to risk her to stop a Palembang landing for a month or six weeks, but the geography is hard. Once the landing gets up-river she can't help. Oosthaven can be a Japanese route to Palembang since they can take their own heavy escorts along, but a risk-seeking Japanese player will go with CLs and go straight up-river. I don't have enough of anything at Palembang yet to hold together. LCUs are inbound, but I need time.



Chickenboy -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/24/2012 3:36:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
So, now that I know the IJN is short of rounds, I expect it will withdraw. To where? Cam Rahn? Formosa? Other? Opinions welcome.


CRB would likely be the closest base for BB replenishment.

quote:


And should I expose Force Z in pursuit? I might find it, I might not. If I do Z could be clocked, or it might bag me a rare Japanese BB in exchange for yard time. I could swallow hard, let the BBs go this time, and maintain my fleet-in-being for the inevitable need around Java/Sumatra.


Without Sinkawang and the "shoulder" of Borneo to support his claims on Sumatra, you've a better than even matchup with Force Z orbitting in the IO. I agree with your placement in the IO for now. For goodness' sake, don't pursue the Japanese into the teeth of Netties with force Z!

I'd draw my line for intervention between Borneo and Sumatra until such time as he captures Singkawang and places an air HQ there. When that happens, all bets are off down to Batavia.

quote:


It's hard being an AFB sometimes.

So sorry, Yankee dog! You die now! BANZAI!

quote:


In the mountains near Chengting the Japanese attack yet again, odds falling to 1:2, casualties 275 (J) to 221 (A). He really, really wants this hex cleared.


Drawing even casualties against the Japs at this stage of the war is an excellent achievement for your Chinese troops. Good job stopping them here, even if it is temporary.




Chickenboy -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/24/2012 3:42:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
I would be willing to risk her to stop a Palembang landing for a month or six weeks, but the geography is hard. Once the landing gets up-river she can't help. Oosthaven can be a Japanese route to Palembang since they can take their own heavy escorts along, but a risk-seeking Japanese player will go with CLs and go straight up-river. I don't have enough of anything at Palembang yet to hold together. LCUs are inbound, but I need time.


Yes, the Pow can't make it up river to Palembang, but you can accomplish this interdiction by hovering on the hex just in front of Palembang with a reaction =1 order. Your BB(s) should be able to do this just fine. Your risk calculus is reasonable UNTIL he gets air support nearby. However, as he's nowhere near Singapore, Singkawang or Kuching, your big gun ships still hold the upper hand.

You're right about the coup de main amphibious assault on Palembang. I've done that in a recent PBEM CG where my opponent had removed his surface ships from the area. It's a high 'pucker factor' move, but a worthwhile payout for a JFB if successful. I wouldn't dream about doing it without air cover though...



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/24/2012 3:45:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
So, now that I know the IJN is short of rounds, I expect it will withdraw. To where? Cam Rahn? Formosa? Other? Opinions welcome.


CRB would likely be the closest base for BB replenishment.

Thanks. I don't know the Japanese port sizes at all.

quote:


And should I expose Force Z in pursuit? I might find it, I might not. If I do Z could be clocked, or it might bag me a rare Japanese BB in exchange for yard time. I could swallow hard, let the BBs go this time, and maintain my fleet-in-being for the inevitable need around Java/Sumatra.


Without Sinkawang and the "shoulder" of Borneo to support his claims on Sumatra, you've a better than even matchup with Force Z orbitting in the IO. I agree with your placement in the IO for now. For goodness' sake, don't pursue the Japanese into the teeth of Netties with force Z!

I know, I know. But I still want to! [:)] (But I won't.)

I'd draw my line for intervention between Borneo and Sumatra until such time as he captures Singkawang and places an air HQ there. When that happens, all bets are off down to Batavia.

Which will be a problem, since Batavia is my dash-in refuel spot for Z. If I have to go to Perth the transit time and fuel cost will eat it up.
quote:


It's hard being an AFB sometimes.

So sorry, Yankee dog! You die now! BANZAI!

For now. Just for now. [:)]
quote:


In the mountains near Chengting the Japanese attack yet again, odds falling to 1:2, casualties 275 (J) to 221 (A). He really, really wants this hex cleared.


Drawing even casualties against the Japs at this stage of the war is an excellent achievement for your Chinese troops. Good job stopping them here, even if it is temporary.

The mountains are great. It's odd, since this was an accident, totally due to him driving through there. My guys were running west as fast as their bare feet could carry them.




BBfanboy -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/24/2012 6:03:31 PM)

My experience with Force Z against Japanese BBs has been dismal - Nagato and true BB sisters eat it up. They have better gunnery and are usually supported by long-lance equipped DDs and CAs. POW can hold her own in a long range day action against the Kongos and escorts, as long as they don't close to within 10,000 yards - Long Lance territory. It helps to replace Tom Phillips as commander. His stats look not too bad but he seems to take Force Z into night actions where it gets slaughtered. Someone with high Naval skills and agression around the 60 mark [you don't want a Halsey leading a charge with BBs into the teeth of Japanese torpedoes!] will do much better in battle.

Against aircraft, the British AA is weak. The 5.25 DP gun is too big to fire fast enough and the 2pdr pom-pom puts up lots of shells but doesn't seem to hit much - a range problem maybe? I think the problem is that neither US nor British ships have AA fire control slaved to radar until mid 1943. Air radar upgrades always seem to help with AA firepower.

FWIW that has been my experience with many sandboxed and AI scripted encounters.



Encircled -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/24/2012 8:18:19 PM)

Good turn for him

I lost the PoW trying to do too much in the first week, and the Repulse needs about a year in the yards.

I'm now very nervous about using them anywhere north of Batavia



zuluhour -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/24/2012 9:12:28 PM)

Just as a complete alternate strategy, I am trying to use Force Z as an interdiction TF between Ambon and the southern Solomons as KB spots permit. I'll let you know how this turns out.[:D]



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/25/2012 1:51:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

You're right about the coup de main amphibious assault on Palembang. I've done that in a recent PBEM CG where my opponent had removed his surface ships from the area. It's a high 'pucker factor' move, but a worthwhile payout for a JFB if successful. I wouldn't dream about doing it without air cover though...


I have an LCU unloading at Oosthaven and another pretty strong Indian unit a day out. Oosthaven is mined and has a base unit fortifying.

Considering what you and others said I moved Z's patrol area forward just a touch, one hex from Oosthaven on the IO side, with a 2-hex NW/SE span. Reaction on 2. If he comes at Oosthaven to spoil the landings I'll fight. I don't thnk he has the ammo to do that though.

The last point-search read I had on his BBs was them heading SW chasing the remnants of my Tf into Palembang. I expect they will turn for Cam Rahn this turn. To that end, I moved every sub I have in the S. China sea onto courses to intercept. I have a number of S-boats as well as almost all of the Dutch subs working out of Singers. I also put all of the TBs at Singers on drop tanks at 5000 ft. and assigned about half my fighters to escort. They might go. They have the range unless he hugs Borneo, and there are subs assigned for that. I also put 100% of my Batavia B-17s on naval attack at 8000 ft. Their fatigue is not bad considering four straight days of Miri bombing. If he tries to run past Soerbaja I have almost all my surface forces left in one big 12-ship TF at Soerbaja with the CLs air searching NW and due N, but still in port. I have a 4-DD reserve there. Every capable naval attack plane at Soerbaja is set to fly. I did not sortie my remaining surface forces at Singers. I need them.

All this will probably not amount to anything, although I have some hope for the Strings if he comes in range. But I really think he'll go across northern Borneo and probably take fuel as he passes.



zuluhour -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/25/2012 2:03:24 AM)

I appologize, I forgot you were looking to make a concentrated Palembang stand, circumstances permitting. This would of course require CPT Trayhorns services aboard the Prince of Wales.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/25/2012 3:15:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

I appologize, I forgot you were looking to make a concentrated Palembang stand, circumstances permitting. This would of course require CPT Trayhorns services aboard the Prince of Wales.



????

But I'm watching the National L. pound the Tigers, so I may not be thinking straight.



Dan Nichols -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/25/2012 3:22:14 AM)

If you set the TBs at singers to use DTs, they will not have a torpedo to use. Check the aircraft stats before and after setting the DTs.



Chickenboy -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/25/2012 3:27:49 AM)

Dan reminds me of an obvious question, but one that needs asking: Did you 'buy' torpedoes for your Air HQs on Malaya?



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/25/2012 3:46:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan Nichols

If you set the TBs at singers to use DTs, they will not have a torpedo to use. Check the aircraft stats before and after setting the DTs.


Ah . . . oops?

Edit: I went and looked, and it's not the Strings, it's the Beest IIIs. But I don't know how to read the stats. The unit assignment screen lets me use drop tanks and torpedoes, but the stats screen doesn't show a torpedo load for either normal or extended range. Is that a misprint? The DB entry makes it look like all the plane has are guns.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/25/2012 3:46:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Dan reminds me of an obvious question, but one that needs asking: Did you 'buy' torpedoes for your Air HQs on Malaya?


Yeah. Tons a torps bought far and wide. Did it on turn 2.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/25/2012 4:15:05 AM)

What a let-down. Just ran the movie and there was no attack on the BBs of any kind. Solid patrol hits from Singers it looked like, but nobody volunteered to be a hero. AAR tomorrow.

Looks like I got a sub!



Dan Nichols -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/25/2012 5:09:57 AM)

If you look at it, the Beasts without DTs will show a torpedo on the aircraft Data tab of the unit screen. If you
select use drop tanks, then look at the Aircraft Data tab, it will show only guns and a DT as it's normal and
extended load. The drop tank is primarily useful for transferring aircraft.

BTW, you know why I know this and understand it? right!! [:@]



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/25/2012 1:28:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan Nichols

If you look at it, the Beasts without DTs will show a torpedo on the aircraft Data tab of the unit screen. If you
select use drop tanks, then look at the Aircraft Data tab, it will show only guns and a DT as it's normal and
extended load. The drop tank is primarily useful for transferring aircraft.

BTW, you know why I know this and understand it? right!! [:@]


I just spent twenty minutes looking at the manual and various screenshots and I am confused. Not unusual after 3+ years with the game that something hits me between the eyes. We've all been there (except Alfred. [:)])

Here's screen #1, showing the mission planning range rings a lot of players would use without digging into the DB.



[image]local://upfiles/31387/1A6646C325534A9BA069170E23558212.jpg[/image]

I read this as Black= torp/no drop tank
Red=bomb/no drop tank
Gray=torp/drop tank
Purple=bomb/drop tank

The manual, in the Drop Tank section, says those outer rings are DT rings. The issue of shuttle ranges is elsewhere.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/25/2012 1:31:25 PM)

When I pull up the hotkey 'D' lisitng for the Beest I get this:



[image]local://upfiles/31387/23911677CD694C31AFDA071139A52A72.jpg[/image]

This tells me, a visual thinker who has to really concentrate when numbers are involved, that:

1) the plane can use torperoes and DTs concurrently
2) Torps/DTs are the "worst", heaviest configuraiton you can do (makes sense)
3) How to correlate this to a range is not immediatley apparent, which is why I use the range rings.

My best guess would be "normal radius with drop tanks" would be the one which applies, since the torpedo is the "normal" ordnance for a TB. And I think that agrees with the gray ring.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/25/2012 1:37:30 PM)

But, but, but . . .

When I open the Aircraft Data hotpoint on the unit screen, I see THIS:



[image]local://upfiles/31387/418D34F7AC8046E2A85D7729D72D0DF0.jpg[/image]

This is with Torps and DTs both selected. This seems to indicate that the aircraft can NEVER carry both a torp and a DT at the same time, which seems to contradict the previous two planning approaches.

Also, the game should have error-trapping code so you can't choose DTs and torps at the same time and they both stay yellow. To me that's what code is for, to prevent the need to check the DB for every ordnance/tank combo on every aircraft for every mission. If the torps can't work they should "red out."

What am I missing?



BBfanboy -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/25/2012 3:20:29 PM)

No wonder the School of Hard Knocks in this game is so hard to graduate from! [:(]
Agree with the need for a code change. At the very least the Beest info screenie should say "Alternate Load" next to the drop tank.
Maybe you can fire-bomb his ships with it? [sm=sterb032.gif]



Chickenboy -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/25/2012 3:36:03 PM)

I agree, Bull. My read of the DB and the rings conforms to your conclusions too. Very confusing. I think the stringbags are one of the (many) exceptions to the game code that one just has to remember out of hand. School of hard knocks indeed.

On the bright side, it's good to know that the Vildebeest DOES come with "Engine x1". [8|]



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/25/2012 5:29:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

No wonder the School of Hard Knocks in this game is so hard to graduate from! [:(]
Agree with the need for a code change. At the very least the Beest info screenie should say "Alternate Load" next to the drop tank.
Maybe you can fire-bomb his ships with it? [sm=sterb032.gif]


I posted the above series over Second Coffee, went away to watch "Morning Joe", noted that it's snowing like a sumbiotch, then came back, calmer, to see if my posts had generated any comments, or just yawns. Or, worse, that I was totally mistaken, which is the saddest sort of forum spanking one can get: The Righteous Indignation Cha Cha Followed By Pie In The Face.

Nice to know I wasn't imagining this state of affairs.

I wonder how many attacks I've missed out on over the years because the game let me torp + DT?

I understand that the DB screens aren't set up to say "either/or", and that I suppose we could be expected to know from the screenshot that a Beest only has one 'C' hardpoint, but I really don't know the wing and fuselage configurations of every plane in the game. I expect that when the interface has trained me, in good doggie fashion, that "yellow=good/possible, red=bad/impossible" I don't have to interpolate between the DB and screenshots and what the interface is telling me. The interface is a deal between dev and player. It shouldn't backstab you.

In effect, my Beests this turn went out looking for two BBs with machine guns. Worse, they did it at extreme ranges. I don't know if they would have been in attack range without the DTs, but at least I could have been sure they had fish.

From a code standpoint I doubt the DB has a flag which would allow a universal DT exception check to be done. Probably have to put in a whole stack of aircraft model error traps to resolve DT and weapon interferrence. But without them this is a crappy situation, which even worse can still bite you even if you do the hand-work of going to the DB and checking. Of the three data sources I showed above, only one shows the truth.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/25/2012 5:30:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

I agree, Bull. My read of the DB and the rings conforms to your conclusions too. Very confusing. I think the stringbags are one of the (many) exceptions to the game code that one just has to remember out of hand. School of hard knocks indeed.

On the bright side, it's good to know that the Vildebeest DOES come with "Engine x1". [8|]


Yeah, an engine the Allied player never has worry about building. They just "poof" into existence. [:)]

And we wonder why newbies are confused about how to play this beast.



Chickenboy -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/25/2012 5:41:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
And we wonder why newbies are confused about how to play this beast.


Oh no-I've never wondered about noobs' confusion playing this beast. As a non-noob, I'm still confused by it sometimes. [&:]



Encircled -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/25/2012 5:57:54 PM)

Anyone remember "Elite"?

Using the settings on that, after a year of AI playing I think I've just graduated from "Harmless" to "Mostly Harmless".

Some way to go before I can say I'm not a noob



ctangus -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/25/2012 9:47:53 PM)

Thanks for stumbling across the problem with the Beests. Mine weren't flying for two turns while co-located bombers were. It probably would have taken me weeks to figure it out! [:D]

C'est la guerre. I'm rationalizing it this way - I'm convinced my armament officers spent the last 48 hours consuming the gin reserves of Singapore.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/25/2012 10:56:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ctangus

Thanks for stumbling across the problem with the Beests. Mine weren't flying for two turns while co-located bombers were. It probably would have taken me weeks to figure it out! [:D]

C'est la guerre. I'm rationalizing it this way - I'm convinced my armament officers spent the last 48 hours consuming the gin reserves of Singapore.


I've been thiniking about this all afternoon, on and off. Why I didn't do the update.

I may be missing something, but here's a mind-scrambler: how do we knwo which ckick is paramount? How do we know they don't prepare to fly with torps but at non-DT range, even as the player thinks they have DTs AND torps? I assumed they flew to DT range with guns only, but how do you know?



ctangus -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/25/2012 11:15:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

how do we knwo which ckick is paramount? How do we know they don't prepare to fly with torps but at non-DT range, even as the player thinks they have DTs AND torps? I assumed they flew to DT range with guns only, but how do you know?


Do you mean which click or which chick?

If the former - I rationalize it this way. (Note: while I'm knew to AE I am a vet of maybe 2000 WITP PBEM turns and experienced many WTF? moments.) I try to imagine myself as Nimitz or Yamamoto. I can have the best plans in the world but my subordinates (the game engine) may still screw them up. As I get to know my subordinates (the game engine) better I can limit, but not eliminate those screw ups.

Now if you were asking what chick is paramount I'd definitely say Christina Hendricks:



[image]local://upfiles/18431/92DC0EC7EDBB493394434E867E71FAC1.jpg[/image]



BBfanboy -> RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks (10/25/2012 11:19:45 PM)

I thought they did not fly? The map shows a TF about 5 hexes south of Singers, so I guess that is the one in question?
If it did not have a high enough DL the TBs might not fly - an "iffy" FOW contact isn't worth risking op losses.
If it had a good DL and they didn't fly, it could have been weather or the aircraft was overloaded with torp and DT so it stayed put.
If they flew and no attack appears in the combat report, they turned back.
You might get a clue to what happened by looking at their fatigue level. A 0 fatique level, or a decrease of previous fatigue means they stayed at the bar.
An increase of 4-6 means a normal, no DT mission with no contact. An increase of 7-9 likely means a DT ranged mission with no contact.
I got a feel for this by watching fatigue levels on my air groups every turn - standing them down when they get over ten unless something really juicy is nearby.

PS - weather in the landing hex also affects fatigue a bit, 2-3 points if it is bad. The "pucker factor effect".[:D]



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