Use of Ju-52 for recon: Gamey or not? (Full Version)

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Reconvet -> Use of Ju-52 for recon: Gamey or not? (10/29/2012 3:08:40 PM)

How do you guys feel about Axis players using transport planes (Ju-52) for recon flights? Gamey or not?

In early stages of Trappenjagd/CB Soviet airforce is in a sorry state: low integrity, exp and readiness. In addition to that come c&c penalties for the first 30 turns which render many airgroups inoperable if the Soviet player does not want to get them ripped apart by axis fighters. So Red Air Force has to stay grounded for quite some time.

Should the Axis player stay honest during this time and use combat planes for recon duty or do you consider it okay if he uses his transport planes to raise detection levels and his situational awareness? I for myself - being on the receiving end of such recon missions right now - have serious doubts if Goering would send out his transport planes for missions like that.

So what's your take on Ju-52 flying recon?




Keunert -> RE: Use of Ju-52 for recon: Gamey or not? (10/29/2012 5:29:38 PM)

when playing soviets i place my air units in a way that gets them out of the Luftwaffe range. only if the krauts place their fighters within 30-40km of the frontline they could reach me. recon with transports will be a costly strategy. if they get intercepted the german player will lose an important asset of his fighting force. to make it short: i wouldn't mind.



LiquidSky -> RE: Use of Ju-52 for recon: Gamey or not? (10/29/2012 6:26:58 PM)



Actually, I don't recon very much. I can notice within three hexes of my units any enemy activity/build up, and when I bomb a hex, I will get full recon on it (before I attack). I will send my fighters out on lone attack runs on cities in the rear, to strike at intercepting Russians, and that will also give me good recon on the city I hit. (revealing HQ's and hurt units rebuilding, usually).

As Keunert says, though....your reconning planes will be intercepted once in a while, and will suffer a small chance of losing a strength point. A very valuable strength point. Best thing to do with the transports is just sit them back from the front a ways, and wait for something to need them....because when you need them, you will really need them.



Reconvet -> RE: Use of Ju-52 for recon: Gamey or not? (10/29/2012 9:55:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Keunert

when playing soviets i place my air units in a way that gets them out of the Luftwaffe range. only if the krauts place their fighters within 30-40km of the frontline they could reach me. recon with transports will be a costly strategy. if they get intercepted the german player will lose an important asset of his fighting force. to make it short: i wouldn't mind.


Won't work. As Axis I'd do the odd fighter strike first (any potential airfield) to catch Soviet fighters which are set on intercept, with lethal results for intercepting red formations. If no red planes get in the air, you have clean plate to use your Ju-52 for missions they were never used for, saving flying time of axis combat formations (LB/CAS) for ground support and/or bridge busting.

For the initial phase of Trappenjagd/CB with nasty penalties for red air formations I just see no tool for the Russian player against the ahistoric use of Ju-52's. Any other tipps or arguments which could convince me that Ju-52 on recon duty should be legitimate?




Bonners -> RE: Use of Ju-52 for recon: Gamey or not? (10/29/2012 11:39:26 PM)

As the guilty party I'd say probably not fair, so I shall desist for now. Have to be honest I'd not really thought about it until an opponent did it to me and I thought it was a good idea. Hadnt really thought of the arguments to the contrary, but like you say it is a bit difficult for the Soviet player to contest it and I guess it is a bit a-historical.



Bonners -> RE: Use of Ju-52 for recon: Gamey or not? (10/29/2012 11:41:08 PM)

To the other arguments saying you wouldnt have a problem with it, I'd agree probably from late June, maybe July onwards where the Soviet player has a chance to intercept. But in our game at the end of May they are pretty invulnerable.



Vic -> RE: Use of Ju-52 for recon: Gamey or not? (10/30/2012 9:00:31 AM)

You can never be sure all soviet fighters have intercepted already by testing first with fighter attacks or recon missions. Appart from range there is a random element involved in deciding if an air formation intercepts.

best,
Vic



Reconvet -> RE: Use of Ju-52 for recon: Gamey or not? (10/30/2012 12:50:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bonners

As the guilty party I'd say probably not fair, so I shall desist for now. Have to be honest I'd not really thought about it until an opponent did it to me and I thought it was a good idea. Hadnt really thought of the arguments to the contrary, but like you say it is a bit difficult for the Soviet player to contest it and I guess it is a bit a-historical.


Thanks, I appreciate that. If you ever find a red side action you're uncomfortable with I'll return the favour of course.

I didn't want to put pressure on anybody by the way, I just wanted an open discussion to see if I'm off target.



Reconvet -> RE: Use of Ju-52 for recon: Gamey or not? (10/30/2012 12:59:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

You can never be sure all soviet fighters have intercepted already by testing first with fighter attacks or recon missions. Appart from range there is a random element involved in deciding if an air formation intercepts.

best,
Vic


Thanks for dropping in here, insights like this are always welcome.

As for random element for soviet intercepts: My experience as Axis player is still limited, but I came to the conclusion for myself that if I send two Axis fighter squadrons on separate midrange airfield combat recon I can be quite certain to have prompted, mauled and exhausted any soviet fighters set on intercept on the front sector I wanted to bomb without wasting stackpoints on escort fighters. And this even if my fighter raids hit empty airfields.




Keunert -> RE: Use of Ju-52 for recon: Gamey or not? (10/30/2012 4:43:16 PM)

the air war is something the soviets can get even quite fast. if properly used the soviet will soon have more fighters. at the end of my game against the axis overlord Olivier the Luftwaffe was in a difficult situation.



wallas -> RE: Use of Ju-52 for recon: Gamey or not? (10/30/2012 6:26:30 PM)

I would not commit the soviet airforce again till September at the earliest. In my trappenjagd game with liquidsky I committed it fully and have forced the germans to play his fighter and bomber cards often(i believe his cost is in the 50's now for each). But I am sure he does not care anyways as come fall winter the german air becomes less effective and useful. The down side is my fighter force is still under 50 integrity and mauled badly, and to be honest really did not stop the luftwaffe from doing what it wanted to do anyways during the summer months. This scenario is ten months long and only 4 of them will the german air truly be useful, and effective. Aircraft, Artillery, and tanks imo and only useful on the attack. So wasting any of these russian units on the frontline in May,June,July,August is pointless. That said I understand there are times you need any unit to hold a front line position.

How i see it anyways [&:]



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