RE: Partisan question. (Full Version)

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Ur_Vile_WEdge -> RE: Partisan question. (11/28/2012 2:37:14 PM)

Sorry guys, It's me again. Slightly different problem, but it's the same partisan, so I'm going to drag this thread around a bit more.

France did fall, and Indo-China did go Vichy. The partisan is still there and is actually sitting in Hanoi.

Vichy isn't at war with anyone, so the guy is controlled by the Nationalist Chinese.


Now, planning time:

We'd like the CW to overrun as much of the Vichy colonies as we can get away with. If (and it's a big if) we beat Japan to the punch, we could possibly get a division into Hanoi, we've already got the infdiv in Ceylon and he can make the hop. The partisan would be aligned to the CW when they declare war on Vichy (I think), and so would take care of the notional, so the invasion should be automatically successful.

During the end of turn, CW would gain control of French Indo-China. And unless we move either the partisan or the infdiv, they would then be stacked in the same hex, and now the partisan would be controlled by Italy, and at war with the CW.

Uhm, what happens then?



Extraneous -> RE: Partisan question. (11/28/2012 6:39:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

Now, planning time:

We'd like the CW to overrun as much of the Vichy colonies as we can get away with. If (and it's a big if) we beat Japan to the punch, we could possibly get a division into Hanoi, we've already got the infdiv in Ceylon and he can make the hop. The partisan would be aligned to the CW when they declare war on Vichy (I think), and so would take care of the notional, so the invasion should be automatically successful.

During the end of turn, CW would gain control of French Indo-China. And unless we move either the partisan or the infdiv, they would then be stacked in the same hex, and now the partisan would be controlled by Italy, and at war with the CW.

Uhm, what happens then?



quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0
Partisans only co-operate with other units from their own country.


You couldn't enter Hanoi with any CW units because you don't co-operate.

You couldn't attack Hanoi because the partisan is controlled by Nationalist China.

You would have to have Nationalist China move the partisan out of Hanoi before your attack.

In this case the partisan could only stack with one other partisan from French Indo-china.


Of course:

If your not at war with Japan and if Japan aligns French Indo-china before you take Hanoi your units would be kicked out of French Indo-china.

The partisan would then become hostile to Japan and still be controlled by Nationalist China.




Ur_Vile_WEdge -> RE: Partisan question. (11/28/2012 8:24:41 PM)

I'm not so sure.

EDIT: On second thought, the bit about the partisans only co-operating with units from their own country is subsequent, and would probably trump the rule I cited.


Hmmm, that makes their "take care of the notional" a lot less useful than I'd have thought.



paulderynck -> RE: Partisan question. (11/29/2012 3:05:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

Now, planning time:

We'd like the CW to overrun as much of the Vichy colonies as we can get away with. If (and it's a big if) we beat Japan to the punch, we could possibly get a division into Hanoi, we've already got the infdiv in Ceylon and he can make the hop. The partisan would be aligned to the CW when they declare war on Vichy (I think), and so would take care of the notional, so the invasion should be automatically successful.

During the end of turn, CW would gain control of French Indo-China. And unless we move either the partisan or the infdiv, they would then be stacked in the same hex, and now the partisan would be controlled by Italy, and at war with the CW.

Uhm, what happens then?



quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0
Partisans only co-operate with other units from their own country.


You couldn't enter Hanoi with any CW units because you don't co-operate.

You couldn't attack Hanoi because the partisan is controlled by Nationalist China.

You would have to have Nationalist China move the partisan out of Hanoi before your attack.

In this case the partisan could only stack with one other partisan from French Indo-china.


Of course:

If your not at war with Japan and if Japan aligns French Indo-china before you take Hanoi your units would be kicked out of French Indo-china.

The partisan would then become hostile to Japan and still be controlled by Nationalist China.



I never thought I'd say this to one of Extraneous' posts... Right. [:)]

Additional info: Sure the Natios would move the partisan out for you, but then you'd have to invade Hanoi, which is pretty tough with a lone division, even in a surprise impulse.

I've always been surprised by players who have the CW DoW Vichy and as long as Vichy has a decent navy I try to work some naval or combined actions with Germany so I can use the Vichy navy to punish the CW - especially if it has a sub or two. IMO it's best as the Wallies to wait for the USA to show up and take all the Vichy colonies and then revert them to FF.



Ur_Vile_WEdge -> RE: Partisan question. (11/29/2012 11:56:26 AM)

Well, strategy wise, I've never been too frightened of the Vichy fleet.

I generally try to maneuver the French fleet so that the best ships (the TRS, the Algerie, maybe the sub if I drew a good one, and as many CP as I can get) are in New Caledonia and French Equatorial Africa. The rest of the cruisers generally wind up in Dakar, and the BB stay in the Med.

Now, if I don't make Vichy hostile, then each ship moved out is an action all by itself; with Germany's 1 naval move for combined, if they want to spend it sending one of those French garbage scows instead of a mass of subs or terrorizing the rear convoy areas with a CX, they're welcome to. And once I DoW Vichy, then all those cruisers are out of supply, and assuming I can hold Gibraltar (and I've yet to see someone knock out Spain without collapsing Vichy), I don't really see the supply chain being re-established.

And of course, the BB are stuck in the Med unless/until Suez falls, which usually is tough to wrangle before the Japanese get in the war to knock out the convoy in the Red sea.

And I like to have at least a body in Indo-China to keep the Japanese from walking in and flanking the KMT in the south. You don't need to liberate the country, just have a unit there. Usually it's a hop into Kwang-Ngai or to Carn-Ranh Bay, and then shipping the div out (I need the flexibility) and someone worthless, like a random Terr or the Rangoon Mil in.

Then they sit there until the Japanese curb-stomp them when they get in the war. Still open, of course, even with the part, but it would have been nice to just walk in and liberate the entire country.

Oh, and another semi-random thing; I generally play with CBVs, and since the French have a whole gang in North Africa, I do usually try to make a quick hop into the Dakar, Morocco, and Algeria in order to pick those free guys up.



Extraneous -> RE: Partisan question. (11/29/2012 5:47:57 PM)

Invasion
Sea-zone: South China Sea
Sea-box 4
Hex: Hanoi

North Monsoon Zone
Fine weather

Sea-zone: South China Sea
Sea-box 0
Sea-box 1 ~ Shore bombardment modifier 2*
Sea-box 2 ~ Shore bombardment modifier 1*
Sea-box 3 ~ Shore bombardment modifier 0*
Sea-box 4 ~ Shore bombardment modifier 0

CW Attacker
1 combat factor: Infantry division
1 combat factor: offensive shore bombardment
0 combat factor: Ground support

2 Total combat factors: CW Attacker

Vichy France Defender
1 combat factor: Notional land unit
1 combat factor: City hex (Hanoi)
0 combat factor: sea-box’s asterisked shore bombardment
0 combat factor: Shore bombardment modifier for each invading unit
0 combat factor: defensive shore bombardment
0 combat factor: Ground support
-1 combat factor: Surprise

1 Total combat factor{s): Vichy France Defender

BLITZKRIEG Table
1 ~ loose 2 attacker units / loose 0 defender units
2 ~ loose 1 attacker units / loose 0 defender units
3 ~ loose 1 attacker units / loose 0 defender units
4 ~ loose 1 attacker units / loose 1 defender unit
5 ~ loose 0 attacker units / loose 1 defender unit
6 ~ loose 0 attacker units / retreat defender units
7 ~ loose 0 attacker units / retreat defender units
8 ~ loose 1 attacker units / loose 1 defender unit and retreat remaining defender units
9 ~ loose 0 attacker units / shatter all defender units and breakthrough
10 ~ loose 0 attacker units / loose 1 defender units, shatter remaining defender units, and breakthrough

30% chance the Vichy France Defender retains Hanoi.
70% chance the CW Attacker captures Hanoi.
50% chance the CW Attacker looses the Infantry division.

ASSAULT Table
1 ~ loose 2 attacker units / loose 0 defender units
2 ~ loose 2 attacker units / loose 0 defender units
3 ~ loose 1 attacker unit / loose 0 defender units
4 ~ loose 1 attacker unit / loose 1 defender unit
5 ~ loose 2 attacker units / loose 1 defender unit
6 ~ loose 0 attacker units / loose 1 defender unit
7 ~ loose 0 attacker units / loose 1 defender unit
8 ~ loose 1 attacker unit / loose 2 defender units
9 ~ loose 0 attacker units / loose 1 defender unit and shatter remaining defender units
10 ~ loose 0 attacker units / loose 2 defender units and shatter remaining defender units

30% chance the Vichy France Defender retains Hanoi.
70% chance the CW Attacker captures Hanoi.
60% chance the CW Attacker looses the Infantry division.

The chances for the Vichy France Defender to retain Hanoi are the same on either chart. The Vichy France Defender should choose the ASSAULT Table and attempt to kill the CW Infantry division.


OPTION 67: 2 DIE 10 LAND COMBAT RESULTS TABLE
Modifiers
+4: 2-1 odds
+1: defender is a notional unit
0: Weather Effects
-1: City hex (Hanoi)

+5 Total modifiers

Dice roll would be 2 die 10 + 5 (or 7 through 25).

Blitz Table
7: Loose 2 attacker units. / No effect on Defender.
8: Loose 1 attacker unit; Attacker takes an extra loss when attacking a city. / No effect on Defender.
9: Loose 1 attacker unit; Attacker takes an extra loss when attacking a city. / No effect on Defender.
10: Loose 1 attacker unit. / No effect on Defender.
11: Attacker takes an extra loss when attacking a city. / No effect on Defender.
12: No effect on Attacker. / No effect on Defender.
13: Loose 1 attacker unit; Attacker takes an extra loss when attacking a city. / Loose 1 defender unit.
14: Loose 1 attacker unit /1
15 Attacker takes an extra loss when attacking a city. / Loose 1 defender unit.
16: Loose 1 attacker unit /R
17: Half the remaining attacking units are not turned face-down (round up). /Retreat defender units.
18: Half the remaining attacking units are not turned face-down (round up). / Retreat defender units.
19: Loose 1 attacker unit; Half the remaining attacking units are not turned face-down (round up). / Defending units that could retreat are shattered and breakthrough.
20 Attacker takes an extra loss when attacking a city. Half the remaining attacking units are not turned face-down (round up). / Defending units that could retreat are shattered and breakthrough.
21 Attacker is not turned face-down. / Defending units that could retreat are shattered and breakthrough.
22 Attacker is not turned face-down. / Loose 1 defender unit; defending units that could retreat are shattered and breakthrough.
23+ Attacker is not turned face-down. / Loose 2 defender units; defending units that could retreat are shattered and breakthrough.

33.3% chance the Vichy France Defender retains Hanoi.
66.6% chance the CW Attacker captures Hanoi.
61.05% chance the CW Attacker looses the Infantry division.

Assault Table
7: Loose 2 attacker units. /No effect on Defender.
8: Loose 2 attacker units. /No effect on Defender.
9: Loose 1 attacker unit; Attacker takes an extra loss when attacking a city. / No effect on Defender.
10: Loose 1 attacker unit. /No effect on Defender.
11: Loose 1 attacker unit. /No effect on Defender.
12: Attacker takes an extra loss when attacking a city. / No effect on Defender.
13: No effect on Attacker. / No effect on Defender.
14: Loose 2 attacker units; Attacker takes an extra loss when attacking a city. / Loose 1 defender unit.
15: Loose 2 attacker units. / Loose 1 defender unit.
16: Loose 1 attacker unit; Attacker takes an extra loss when attacking a city. / Loose 1 defender unit.
17: Loose 1 attacker unit. / Loose 1 defender unit.
18: No effect on attacker. / Loose 1 defender unit.
19: loose 1 attacker unit; Attacker takes an extra loss when attacking a city. Half the remaining attacking units are not turned face-down (round up). /Loose 2 defender units.
20: loose 1 attacker unit; loose 1 attacker unit; / Loose 2 defender units; remaining defending units that could retreat are shattered.
21: Half the remaining attacking units are not turned face-down (round up). /Loose 1 defender unit; remaining defending units that could retreat are shattered.
22: Attacker takes an extra loss when attacking a city. Half the remaining attacking units are not turned face-down (round up). /Loose 2 defender units; remaining defending units that could retreat are shattered.
23+: Attacker is not turned face-down. / Loose 2 defender units; remaining defending units that could retreat are shattered.

38.85% chance the Vichy France Defender retains Hanoi.
61.05% chance the CW Attacker captures Hanoi.
71.5% chance the CW Attacker looses the Infantry division.


The chances for the Vichy France Defender to retain Hanoi are close on either chart. The Vichy France Defender should choose the Assault Table and attempt to kill the CW Infantry division.

Note: Weather, the Sea-box, Vichy French SCS, and bombers would have a dramatic effect to these results.





paulderynck -> RE: Partisan question. (11/29/2012 6:02:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

Well, strategy wise, I've never been too frightened of the Vichy fleet.

And I like to have at least a body in Indo-China to keep the Japanese from walking in and flanking the KMT in the south. You don't need to liberate the country, just have a unit there. Usually it's a hop into Kwang-Ngai or to Carn-Ranh Bay, and then shipping the div out (I need the flexibility) and someone worthless, like a random Terr or the Rangoon Mil in.


Good point on the non-hostile provision. But they do also on occasion have a couple good fighters that are easier for the Germans to deploy and can be very annoying in the Med. Also, usually I have 2 FF factories and the CW sitting in the "Bordeaux Redoubt" when Vichy is declared and I don't like the idea of the Vichy land force taking out a big chunk of my Redoubt garrison with a lucky attack if they are at war with the CW. That's my other reason to wait for the big green machine.

But I see no way for you to have a land unit in Indo China except on a surprise turn with a DoW on Vichy. If it's there before Vichy, it gets teleported out. If after, you have to both DoW Vichy and invade. If after the Japanese align it, you have to both DoW Japan and invade. If you wait until the Japanese DoW the CW, you'll have a long wait.

Also I think it has to teleport out if the Japanese align Indo China, so as soon as you invade a non-city hex, the next impulse Japan ought to align Indo China.



Ur_Vile_WEdge -> RE: Partisan question. (11/29/2012 7:59:21 PM)

To Extraneous: Don't invade Hanoi on the surprise impulse.

Remember, the main goal here is to stop Japan from aligning indo-China. You don't need to liberate the country, just stick a single unit there to keep the Japanese out.

That's why I usually only go for one of the non-city minor ports. No city means the notional is a zero strength on the surprise impulse, which means automatic victory. Hanoi was a target of opportunity that I thought I could grab because I was under the (mistaken) assumption that the partisan would take care of the notional for me.


To Paulderynck: You do have to get lucky and win initiative. What I usually set up is the infdiv with one of my 6 moving cruisers in Tricomelee. If I go first, DoW Vichy, take a combined, invade Indo-China. If the Axis go first, and grab Indo-China, I take a combined, DoW Vichy, float out to the West Indian, and invade Tamatave, and walk into Atanarivo the next time I get a land. Either way, I grab something of value in the Asian map, (at the very least help the French get a CBV)



I'm also a bit of a fan of the Bordeaux redoubt, but I usually just buttonhole 2 guys in the city itself and cover with DSB if we're playing with it. Again, I guess I've never been too scared of the Vichy force directly attacking. Even if they have enough troops to fill both hexes, the 40% defection rate per unit, combined with a defense force that should at the very least be like 10-11 (and close to double that if playing DSB) makes me feel pretty secure.

But just in general I play a very aggressive, half-insane CW, where Mil die and are consistently rebuilt are a core part of my strategy, so I'll take Vichy on. I'LL TAKE ALL THE AXIS ON ALL BY MYSELF! [:'(]



Extraneous -> RE: Partisan question. (11/29/2012 10:07:37 PM)

quote:

Original: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf
9.8 Aligning minors
If a neutral minor can align with your major power (see 19.6 Soviet border rectification, 19.7 Axis minor countries, and 19.8 Allied minor countries), you can declare that it is aligning with you. You can only declare one minor aligned with your major power in each friendly impulse.

Your major power controls a minor that aligns with it exactly as if another major power had declared war on it.

9.10 Japanese occupation
Japan can announce the occupation of French Indo-China and Madagascar during the declaration of war step (see 13.3.3 US entry actions, entry actions 1. Japan occupies Indo-China & 5. Japan occupies Madagascar). If the prerequisites in 13.3.3 US entry actions are met, you may align these minors even if the minor country is aligned, provided Japan is not at war with the controlling major power.

13.3.3 US entry actions
Option 1. Japan occupies Indo-China - Japan aligns French Indo-China but only if it is a Vichy territory (see 17.2 Determine control) and there are no Allied units there. Japan does this by announcing the occupation during an Axis declaration of war step. Move any Vichy units in French Indo-China to the Free French force pool.

All hexes in French Indo-China immediately become Japanese controlled.



This is the only way the rules I present make sense.

Japan cannot align French Indo-China:
If French Indo-China goes Free French, or
If Japan is at war with the major power currently controlling French Indo-China.

Japan can align French Indo-china:
If French Indo-china goes Vichy French; or
If Vichy France at one time controlled French Indo-China and Japan is not at war with the major power currently controlling French Indo-China.

If Japan aligns French Indo-China all hexes in French Indo-China would immediately become Japanese controlled.





brian brian -> RE: Partisan question. (11/29/2012 10:57:26 PM)

Then there the 30% of games where Indo-China goes to the Free-French. Make it their home country and ship in some CW loans and the Japanese time-table can be just about wrecked trying to deal with an Allied supply source right on the South China Sea, if they wait till normal US entry. Hanoi is one tough hex to take...will be less so on the new map I think. Or Japan can act fast before CW BPs create strong FF GARR and ART units...but that accelerates US Entry. This is a somewhat fanciful strategy in that it's not the best choice when Russia is in danger or the CW hasn't stabilized it's own situation in Europe, but some games can give the CW an opening to start laying a very aggressive defense against the Japanese.

re: Bordeaux redoubt. Lately I've been thinking good German play (when their eventual destination is Ost, rather than Gibraltar....or perhaps even when Gib is the objective) is to let the French occupy Belgium extensively, and grind them up there through the M/J turn, waiting until J/A 40 to actually enter France... ???



Ur_Vile_WEdge -> RE: Partisan question. (11/29/2012 11:28:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

quote:

Original: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf

13.3.3 US entry actions
Option 1. Japan occupies Indo-China - Japan aligns French Indo-China but only if it is a Vichy territory (see 17.2 Determine control) and there are no Allied units there. Japan does this by announcing the occupation during an Axis declaration of war step. Move any Vichy units in French Indo-China to the Free French force pool.

All hexes in French Indo-China immediately become Japanese controlled.



This is the only way the rules I present make sense.

Japan cannot align French Indo-China:
If French Indo-China goes Free French, or
If Japan is at war with the major power currently controlling French Indo-China.

Japan can align French Indo-china:
If French Indo-china goes Vichy French; or
If Vichy France at one time controlled French Indo-China and Japan is not at war with the major power currently controlling French Indo-China.

If Japan aligns French Indo-China all hexes in French Indo-China would immediately become Japanese controlled.





I had always read the indo-china provision conjuntively.

For Japan to Occupy Indo-China, it must both

A) Be controlled by Vichy (and not Free) France

B) There are no allied units in Indo-China.


Therefore, if there's any allied unit in Indo-China, and you can get someone there before the Japanese declare their occupation, you can keep them from wriggling in.

Functionally, this means a race to get a unit in before Japan can declare an alignment. Usually a CW unit, since China can't declare war, the Americans probably won't have enough entry when France falls, the Soviets don't have anyone who can get there, and the Free French are usually too battered, which leaves the CW.

Actually, that reminds me, the notional would be a vichy unit right? So it has a 40% (50% if it's the Free French attacking) of defecting before combat even begins if you do attack Hanoi, which shifts the odds in the attackers favor.



Extraneous -> RE: Partisan question. (11/30/2012 3:20:38 AM)

quote:

Original: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf

9.10 Japanese occupation
Japan can announce the occupation of French Indo-China and Madagascar during the declaration of war step (see 13.3.3 US entry actions, entry actions 1. Japan occupies Indo-China & 5. Japan occupies Madagascar). If the prerequisites in 13.3.3 US entry actions are met, you may align these minors even if the minor country is aligned, provided Japan is not at war with the controlling major power.


13.3.3 US entry actions

Option 1. Japan occupies Indo-China - Japan aligns French Indo-China but only if it is a Vichy territory (see 17.2 Determine control) and there are no Allied units there. Japan does this by announcing the occupation during an Axis declaration of war step. Move any Vichy units in French Indo-China to the Free French force pool.

All hexes in French Indo-China immediately become Japanese controlled.


5. Japan occupies Madagascar - Japan aligns Madagascar China but only if it is a Vichy territory (see 17.2 Determine control) and there are no Allied units there. Japan does this by announcing the occupation during an Axis declaration of war step. Japan must have aligned French Indo-China (see entry action 1) in a previous turn.

Move any Vichy units in Madagascar to the Free French force pool. All hexes in Madagascar immediately become Japanese controlled.



Please note 13.3.3 US entry actions 1 and 5 have the same requirements so their situation is the same.


Rule 9.10 Japanese occupation states: If the prerequisites in 13.3.3 US entry actions are met, you may align these minors even if the minor country is aligned, provided Japan is not at war with the controlling major power.

Rule 13.3.3 US entry actions 1 and 5 states: but only if it is a Vichy territory (see 17.2 Determine control) and there are no Allied units there.


Why say in rule 9.10 Japanese occupation, "you may align these minors even if the minor country is aligned"? When Vichy France is established French Indo-China is aligned with either Vichy France or Free France.

The sentence makes no sense if they are talking about Vichy France aligning in either option.



Why say in rule 9.10 Japanese occupation, "Provided Japan is not at war with the controlling major power". Axis major powers can’t declare war on Vichy France.

The sentence makes no sense if they are talking about Axis major powers declaring war on Vichy France.



Why even include rule 9.10 Japanese occupation in the rules?







composer99 -> RE: Partisan question. (11/30/2012 4:03:58 AM)

There are two reasons, I imagine:

First is to establish where it occurs in the sequence of play. This is unambiguous (fortunately) and the rule is defensible on this point.

Second, with regards to the apparent contradiction between the loose constraints on Japanese occupation in §9.10 and the tighter restrictions in §13.3.2, I personally don't know, but my guess is that it's a ghost of WiF past.

(Incidentally, this is something that should be cleaned up in the RAC if it hasn't been already.)



paulderynck -> RE: Partisan question. (11/30/2012 4:22:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge
Functionally, this means a race to get a unit in before Japan can declare an alignment. Usually a CW unit, since China can't declare war, the Americans probably won't have enough entry when France falls, the Soviets don't have anyone who can get there, and the Free French are usually too battered, which leaves the CW.

Actually, that reminds me, the notional would be a vichy unit right? So it has a 40% (50% if it's the Free French attacking) of defecting before combat even begins if you do attack Hanoi, which shifts the odds in the attackers favor.


That's a cute trick. I like it! [:)] (And hope to use it as soon as I get the chance.) Even old dogs...



paulderynck -> RE: Partisan question. (11/30/2012 4:53:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
Please note 13.3.3 US entry actions 1 and 5 have the same requirements so their situation is the same.

Rule 9.10 Japanese occupation states: If the prerequisites in 13.3.3 US entry actions are met, you may align these minors even if the minor country is aligned, provided Japan is not at war with the controlling major power.

Rule 13.3.3 US entry actions 1 and 5 states: but only if it is a Vichy territory (see 17.2 Determine control) and there are no Allied units there.

Why say in rule 9.10 Japanese occupation, "you may align these minors even if the minor country is aligned"? When Vichy France is established French Indo-China is aligned with either Vichy France or Free France.

The sentence makes no sense if they are talking about Vichy France aligning in either option.


Why say in rule 9.10 Japanese occupation, "Provided Japan is not at war with the controlling major power". Axis major powers can’t declare war on Vichy France.

The sentence makes no sense if they are talking about Axis major powers declaring war on Vichy France.

Why even include rule 9.10 Japanese occupation in the rules?


9.10 will have disappeared in the next version of RAW.



Extraneous -> RE: Partisan question. (11/30/2012 4:00:41 PM)

After Vichy France is established:
If the Allies get the initiative before the Axis, or
Japan chooses not to align French Indo-China (Japan would be a moron or asleep).

The CW can then invade and conquer French Indo-China and/or Madagascar with a CW unit.


The only way for someone on the Axis side to be able to attack the CW unit in French Indo-China or Madagascar would be if they were at war with the CW.


But if French Indo-China and Madagascar are not conquered they would still controlled by Vichy France:
Once there are no Allied units in French Indo-China Japan can align French Indo-China,
Once Japan aligns French Indo-China and there are no Allied units in Madagascar Japan can align Madagascar.



Japan could send peacekeepers to stop the conquest but why would they want to? They have better things to do with their units.





paulderynck -> RE: Partisan question. (11/30/2012 5:31:41 PM)

Catch 22: Once the CW unit is there, IndoChina (and/or Madagascar) can't be aligned and the Japanese can't make the unit go away unless theyDoW the CW first, and the CW player would have to be a moron to take the unit out.

Conquering the Vichy colony is not needed - only the presence of the Allied unit is needed.

Still I've seen many games when the CW can't mount even this modest threat and there are many cases where Japan prefers to control the timing of when to align IndoChina due to USE considerations. As Japan, though, if I ever see a CW Div hanging around the Pacific map with good enough lift, I'd be forced to align it.



Extraneous -> RE: Partisan question. (12/1/2012 4:41:23 AM)

At least march north and take Hanoi for the resource. You could send it to Nationalist China.



paulderynck -> RE: Partisan question. (12/1/2012 4:11:44 PM)

Agreed!



Ur_Vile_WEdge -> RE: Partisan question. (12/1/2012 6:09:29 PM)

Possibly.

The thing is, usually the Wallies have resources to spare to lend to China (the oil in Burma, 2 in India and another 2 in Malaya that can be sent over for 1 CP each.) You're probably not saving res, but the use of your convoy points.


And especially if there are a couple of partisans running about, I might let Vichy keep the booby prize, so that way we can be sure of several partisans in the region when/if Japan does declare war and moves to take the province.



Extraneous -> RE: Partisan question. (12/2/2012 1:27:19 AM)

It would be better for the CW to take the Hanoi resource than to let the Japanese have it.

Because the Japanese can transport the Hanoi resource to Japan.

quote:


5.1 Trade agreements

Shipment
Where possible, these resources (or build points) are transported by rail (see 13.6.1 Resources). If this isn’t possible, the recipient must provide the convoys required to receive them (exception: the joint Japan-USA convoy, see above). If the recipient cannot provide the convoys, they do not receive the resources (or build points).

[Emphasis mine.]





Ur_Vile_WEdge -> RE: Partisan question. (12/3/2012 5:41:52 PM)

Oh, of course I want to keep that resource away from Japan as long as possible.

But in how to go about that, well, sooner or later, Japan is going to DoW the western allies, clear out anything you've got in Indo-China, and either conquer the minor if you've liberated it, or align it if you haven't. Japan's got all the edges in force concentration, keeping in supply, naval bases nearby, etc. and I doubt that even if you could hold Indo-China, that the resources involved wouldn't be better employed elsewhere.

Now, say you're the CW and you've slipped a division in before the Japanese aligned Indo-China. Maybe you've kept him there, maybe you've rotated in a Mil or Terr (or if you're a real gamey type, a weak cruiser)

Either way, you're going to be keeping that resource away from the Japanese until they either align the country or grab Hanoi. Again, in either case, you're probably not going to hold it once the Japanese DoW the western allies.

Now, if you liberate Indo-China, the partisans shift control to the Axis, at least until Japan moves into Indo-China and they revert. In that time, they'll probably realize that sooner or later they're going to have to deal with the partisans, and as such, launch them in suicide attacks at your forces to clear the ground for when they come in.

If you don't, and you just keep a body somewhere in Indo-China, the partisans stay under CW control, because Indo-China is still controlled by Vichy. That means you can cluster them up near Hanoi, or in the mountains somewhere, or wherever you think they'll be most helpful, in preparation for when the Japanese DoW you and chase you out to align the minor.


IMO anyway, if there's a partisan or two in the country, maintaining that control is worth more than a resource that's more or less superfluous to what you'd be sending to China anyway.




Extraneous -> RE: Partisan question. (12/3/2012 9:33:09 PM)

In 1940 and 1941China would have 1 unused factory and be creating 4 BP. True, putting 1 factory on line doesn't change the BP total.


Assuming that the USA has not chosen: 13.3.2 US entry option 9 Resources to China (which opens the Burma Road and the Hanoi rail line) nothing is shipped to China except by sea (which would be open to Search and Seizure since Japan is at war with China).


Partisans before Vichy France is established

If a partisan is created before Vichy France is established Italy should put the partisan in Hue (pronounced: Way). That way the French cruiser would not be overrun and be ready to hinder CW Search and Seizure and invasions.

The partisan would act as a blocking force to hinder CW units trying to march up the coast.


Since Hanoi is the location of the resource...

If the CW has DoWed Vichy France then the Japanese can send a peacekeeper into Hanoi. Any normally ineffective Japanese unit would make the partisan insignificant.

Vichy France can give the resource to Japan in a trade agreement.

That 1 resource allows Japan to get an additional BP (16 BP instead of 15 BP) in each production step in 1940 and 1941.

If Vichy France controls Hanoi and still has the cruiser Suffren there it could hinder a CW Search and Seizure or CW invasion.

Japan would supply the convoy points and could be the object of Search and Seizure if the CW wants to tale a 20% chance to remove a US entry chit.


Historical time line
1940
July - August: Vichy France is established July 1940.
September - October
November - December

1941
January - February
March - April
May - June
July - August
September - October
November - December: Pearl Harbor is attacked December 1941.

How many partisans are worth 7 Japanese BP?





Extraneous -> RE: Partisan question. (12/3/2012 9:39:39 PM)



quote:

13. End of Turn Stage
13.6 Production
Search and Seizure
You can stop major powers on the other side that you are not at war with from transporting resources (and build points ~ see 13.6.4 Lend lease) overseas to major powers you are at war with.

To do this:
You must have an SCS, CV or SUB in the sea area during the production step;
The major power you are not at war with must have convoy points there that are transporting resources (or build points) to a major power you are at war with; and
There must not be an SCS, CV or aircraft unit with an air-to-sea factor, controlled by a major power you are at war with, in the sea area (or a US unit that can escort there because of US entry options 11 US east coast escorts, 20 US land-based air escort, 29 North Atlantic escorts, 38 Lend lease to USSR or 50 Unrestricted naval warfare ~ see 13.3.2 US entry options).

You can then execute a search and seizure if you want to. If you do, those resources (or build points) are lost. Each search and seizure you execute is a US entry action (see 13.3.3 US entry actions) if it is conducted against a major power not at war with the USA.




quote:

Active major powers may contribute to the convoy chain of any other major power on the same side.

Neutral major powers can only contribute to convoy chains with other major powers if the rules specifically allow it (see 5.1 Trade agreements and 13.3.2 US entry options, option 9 Resources to China). Neutral major powers’ convoys cannot transport resources or build points to other major powers unless the rules specifically allow it (see 5.1 Japan-USA, 13.3.2 US entry options, options 9 Resources to China, 15 Resources to western Allies, 17 Lend lease to China, 19 Resources to USSR, 27 Lend lease to western Allies and 30 Lend lease to USSR).




Since Search and Seizure takes place after the 13.4 Return to base the SCS, CV, or SUB doing the Search and Seizure must at be at least in the one sea box.

1) During 13.4 Return to base ~ 13.4.1 Naval unit rebasing: all SCS, CV, and SUB units in the Zero sea box must return to base.


The major power you are not at war with must have convoy point(s) in the sea area.

2) A convoy line that is made up entirely of convoy points from a major power you are at war cannot be the object of a Search and Seizure.

3) You sink enemy convoy points you don't seize cargo from them. You can seize cargo from major power convoy point(s) you are not at war with.


The major power you are at war with cannot have a SCS, CV or aircraft unit with an air-to-sea factor in the sea area (or a US unit that can escort there because of US entry options 11 US east coast escorts, 20 US land-based air escort, 29 North Atlantic escorts, 38 Lend lease to USSR or 50 Unrestricted naval warfare).

4) The major power you are at war with must have its SCS, CV or aircraft unit with an air-to-sea factor at least in the one sea box. Because during 13.4 Return to base ~ 13.4.1 Naval unit rebasing all SCS, CV, and aircraft units in the Zero sea box must return to base.

5) If the major power you are at war with has SCS, CV or aircraft unit with an air-to-sea factor in the same sea area the convoy point(s) they can't be the object of a Search and Seizure.






paulderynck -> RE: Partisan question. (12/4/2012 3:40:36 AM)

I'm not sure why S&S would be relevant to the discussion. Unless the Japanese have somehow bungled away the entire war in China, there is no way to get anything to China via overseas transportation unless the Burma Road is open. And if the Burma Road is open then you can just ship the resource directly northwest. (I suppose a JP ZOC might be on that hex, though).



paulderynck -> RE: Partisan question. (12/4/2012 3:42:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

Oh, of course I want to keep that resource away from Japan as long as possible.

But in how to go about that, well, sooner or later, Japan is going to DoW the western allies, clear out anything you've got in Indo-China, and either conquer the minor if you've liberated it, or align it if you haven't. Japan's got all the edges in force concentration, keeping in supply, naval bases nearby, etc. and I doubt that even if you could hold Indo-China, that the resources involved wouldn't be better employed elsewhere.

Now, say you're the CW and you've slipped a division in before the Japanese aligned Indo-China. Maybe you've kept him there, maybe you've rotated in a Mil or Terr (or if you're a real gamey type, a weak cruiser)

Either way, you're going to be keeping that resource away from the Japanese until they either align the country or grab Hanoi. Again, in either case, you're probably not going to hold it once the Japanese DoW the western allies.

Now, if you liberate Indo-China, the partisans shift control to the Axis, at least until Japan moves into Indo-China and they revert. In that time, they'll probably realize that sooner or later they're going to have to deal with the partisans, and as such, launch them in suicide attacks at your forces to clear the ground for when they come in.

If you don't, and you just keep a body somewhere in Indo-China, the partisans stay under CW control, because Indo-China is still controlled by Vichy. That means you can cluster them up near Hanoi, or in the mountains somewhere, or wherever you think they'll be most helpful, in preparation for when the Japanese DoW you and chase you out to align the minor.


IMO anyway, if there's a partisan or two in the country, maintaining that control is worth more than a resource that's more or less superfluous to what you'd be sending to China anyway.



Mind you if you take Hanoi with the CW, you can often engineer things so that two big Chinese units and a Div or gun occupy it. Then it becomes a major operation for Japan to get ahold of it.



Extraneous -> RE: Partisan question. (12/4/2012 10:34:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I'm not sure why S&S would be relevant to the discussion. Unless the Japanese have somehow bungled away the entire war in China, there is no way to get anything to China via overseas transportation unless the Burma Road is open. And if the Burma Road is open then you can just ship the resource directly northwest. (I suppose a JP ZOC might be on that hex, though).


I wanted everyone to be on the same page with S&S.

Without the French cruiser the CW can do a S&S on the Convoy Line from French Indo-China to Japan with impunity.

Agreed, for the Allies to get anything to China via Convoy without the Burma Road is not possible unless China opens a port.




Ur_Vile_WEdge -> RE: Partisan question. (12/4/2012 3:08:58 PM)

I'm sorry, there's a flaw in your analysis.

Under Vichy production, in Subsection of 17.4, "Running Vichy France")

quote:

Vichy France can only give resources and build points to an Axis major power if she is hostile to an Allied major power (exception, see 5.1). The Axis major power that installed the Vichy government can always lend resources and build points to Vichy France.



So if you can keep the Japanese from aligning Indo-China, you can keep the build points away from the Japanese, which again obviates the need to actually conquer or liberate the area.

Furthermore, Japan can't send peacekeepers either.

Same 17.4, but under "Access to Vichy Territory"

quote:

No Axis units may enter Vichy controlled hexes while Vichy France is neutral (except to collapse her administration, see below). While Vichy France is active, only units belonging to the major power which installed Vichy France may enter Vichy controlled administration groups, and even then must satisfy the foreign troop commitment rules (see 18.2) to enter each administration group.

If Vichy France is active and hostile to any major power, units controlled by the major power that installed the Vichy government can enter any Vichy controlled hex without having to satisfy the foreign troop commitment limits.


So unless either Japan installed Vichy (which would be weird, and a whole other kettle of fish), or the allies made Vichy hostile by moving into Metropolitan Vichy or sinking the fleet (neither of which I recommend), you can't send a peacekeeper either.



Extraneous -> RE: Partisan question. (12/4/2012 8:31:32 PM)

I confused "at war" with "hostile" which are not the same.

quote:


Allied major powers at war with the installing major power may declare war on Vichy France.

The declaration of war does not make Vichy France hostile to that Allied major power.

However, if an Allied unit enters Metropolitan Vichy France, Vichy France becomes hostile to that unit’s controlling major power.

Vichy France can be conquered just like any other major power (see 13.7.1).



Vichy France is at war with the CW but not hostile to the CW so no peacekeepers, lending of resources, or BP.



quote:

If Vichy France is Hostile
Vichy France can be conquered just like any other major power (see: 13.7.1 Conquest).

Vichy France units do not co-operate with any major power.

Vichy French Units
Each task force counts as 1 naval move just like any other major power. Naval and aircraft units at sea don't have to return to base during the return to base step just like any other major power. Land units no longer defect before combat just like any other major power.

Vichy French controlled hexes
Units controlled by the Axis major power that installed the Vichy government can enter any Vichy controlled hex without having to satisfy the foreign troop commitment limits.

Units controlled by any other Axis major power (other than the Axis major power that installed the Vichy government) can enter any Vichy controlled hex but has to satisfy the foreign troop commitment limits.

Vichy French production
Vichy France can give resources and build points to an Axis major power just like any other major power (see: 5. Lending Stage, and 5.1 Trade Agreements).

The Axis major power that installed the Vichy government can always lend resources and build points to Vichy France.







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