RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (Full Version)

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jwolf -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/24/2017 1:59:08 AM)

Are the big Chinese armies staying in good supply even after an attack?



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/24/2017 2:13:32 AM)

No. Supply flow is still an issue, especially on the front lines and always after an attack. It comes and fills up a unit or a stack, but then falls low for a few days before the next influx.



Mike McCreery -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/24/2017 2:45:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

No. Supply flow is still an issue, especially on the front lines and always after an attack. It comes and fills up a unit or a stack, but then falls low for a few days before the next influx.


2 million supply dumped in China would fix you right up ;]



Lowpe -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/24/2017 2:49:28 AM)

Can you explain how you grabbed all the jungle rough terrain north and west of Changsha? Thank you, that is quite the coup.[:)]

Fly the liberators in now and let the rest a day or two while the runway improves.



Barb -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/24/2017 6:36:11 AM)

One of the less known things in this game is that major Japanese ground reinforcements (IRL for Philippines, Formosa, Ryukyu, etc) are scheduled to arrive at about mid-1944 to early-1945. I doubt that their arrival was moved up for half a year or so.

So once the allies get "inside" the historical Japanese reinforcement schedule (like Occupying Philippines) before the garrison troops arrived, moved forward, rested, and dug-in, the allies are faced only with troops of the "previous" phase.
Battle of Leyte took place since mid-October 1944, Battle of Luzon since January 1945. If you are half a year early, the Japanese troops used in those battles are probably not even on map yet...

Actually I think that some modders should take this into consideration and set up Japanese reinforcements on "emergency" basis - like fall of Marianas, occupation of Hollandia/Biak area, etc.



Lowpe -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/24/2017 1:43:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

One of the less known things in this game is that major Japanese ground reinforcements (IRL for Philippines, Formosa, Ryukyu, etc) are scheduled to arrive at about mid-1944 to early-1945. I doubt that their arrival was moved up for half a year or so.


Very true, and it also works both ways...for example Formosa gets a big slug of ground troops in early 45, but now in this case they will arrive in Tokyo a month or so later instead of on a starving POW island. That CR should make his decision to invade or not invade, based upon the meta I think is wrong for this particular game, but I suspect there are games going now where that is perfectly correct. Certainly a lot of JFB's play the meta in the first few months of the war to a shocking degree, but the Allies almost never play the meta at the end I suspect for the simple reason so few players get here.

Japanese ground forces (i.e. infantry) really expands very strongly from Nov 43 thru July 44 (mods vary) and then tails off drastically until 45. If memory serves almost all of these troops are raw recruits with 30/30 morale and training roughly. Places like Rangoon get reinforcements very late into the game.

Where Japan really takes it hard, are those deep offensives that start prior to 1944 as Japan simply lacks the ground forces to garrison Marianas, Kuriles, SRA, PI unless China falls (and rather early) or Burma is not a major unit soak.

The other area where Japan can take it very hard from the Allied early success is in AA. A huge amount of AA arrives to counter the arrival of the B29 for Japan this is April of 1944. Plus the big AA TOE expansions of units (to 12.7 guns, Yokohama and Hiroshima static units, AA being added to the aviation units (especially Army). It takes several months for Yokohama's unit to reach full strength for example. There simply is not enough AA to protect the SRA, the troops and Honshu prior to 4/44 so if the Allies can threaten all those areas prior to 4/44 it is real hard for Japan (happened to me, for example).

In this game, CR was threatening Ternate and stalemated just past Changsha in China in mid Nov of 1943 just as Japan's infantry was starting her expansion with recruits.

For whatever reasons, Japan has done exceedingly well to the point prior to the fall of Ningpo.

Ningpo is a bitter loss for Japan. To me, the only invasion that Japan should have sent everything in to counter was the Ningpo invasion. But even here, I can understand why they didn't pull the trigger.

This is not a zero sum game...both sides can be, and usually are, winners -- especially if they reach this point in the game.

There is still a lot of game left in this game, with the potential to shift dramatically one way, or the other still. Have fun!






Grfin Zeppelin -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/24/2017 1:52:22 PM)

This works in both ways however.


SIR !!! The Japanese shot down our last aircraft.

To bad for you, Germany first !!!



MakeeLearn -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/24/2017 2:22:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

[image]http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l304/Sterntaenzer/6863284CF8384386BE77BF3C4D27C657_zpspyuwhlrc.jpg[/image]



Clever



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/25/2017 1:13:34 AM)

11/10/44

Thanks for the graphic, Madam Zeppelin.

Fancy Pants: Tomorrow is going to be a very interesting day in China, with lots of attacks going on. Several are shock attacks that could sever the enemy MLR.

A major enemy combat TF has entered the theater. Something big is up. And the timing complicates certain notions I had.

And Ningpo airfield goes to level 6, with a likelihood of the first B-24J strategic raid tomorrow.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/E2AA35267C1E414EB30F47D35E989125.jpg[/image]



Lowpe -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/25/2017 2:37:33 AM)

Be somewhat careful on using CV strike planes against bases that have a fair bit of AA, or likely have a fair bit of AA.

How many fighters are at Kanoya?

Nothing at this point can stop a coordinated deathstar strike at sea or over a non base hex. You need to be careful of a fractured strike, where you are targeting a half dozen or more small ships or over a size 7 or larger runway.

Battleships usually will give you an alpha strike, especially if there is only one enemy SAG with BB around.

Of course there are settings that will allow you to fly into a CAP trap and devastate that trap, too.

I am curious as to what Japan's defensive composition looks like in China. Is it all infantry like the picture of Changteh (that is inf and a HQ I recall), or does he have AA, ART and Armor along with the infantry, in his defensive front line too?



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/25/2017 2:53:35 AM)

About 70 fighters at Kanoya, roughly 30 on night duty.

John has two tank divisions in China (one of them now beat up badly). He's got some arty and a bit of AA and stuff here and there, but he's heavily weighted towards infantry.

There is a chance that John brought so much defense to Japan - AA and other stuff - fearing an all-out assault that it seriously affected his defense elsewhere. If so, the Allied strategy of foregoing Japan while focusing elsewhere will cross him up. But I don't know that for sure.

I've deployed 60 fresh B-24J to Ningpo. They and the B-29s from Formosa will hit Nagasaki tonight, weather permitting.

There are so many complications to trying something complicated with Death Star that I'm leaning towards deploying it defensively tomorrow, while seeing what if anything that enemy combat TF does.

I do think John is concentrating power in the Home Islands now. Something may be coming. I may be better off following Longstreet's doctrine: take the high ground and let the enemy attack us.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/25/2017 6:48:48 PM)

11/11/44

The collapse of the enemy MLR in China accelerated today. It was also a robust points-harvesting day that was fun to watch from the Allied seat. So I'm going to liberally report on the events.

Air Raid Nagasaki: Only the Taihoku B-29s flew, a small number compared to the number based at Taichu. But the damage to Nagasaki is decent. I deviated from my standard 2,000-foot altitude to see how it might affect accuracy vs. attrition. This is a very small sample to judge by, but I like it.

I goofed by including the new long-range B-29s in the raid, thus tipping John that they're now in theater, if he was paying attention.

The B-29s at Taichu were socked in, as were the B-24Js at Shanghai. Darn it, I really wanted to see how the Liberators affect the air war. I'm hoping they will materially impact the harvesting of victory points.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/3F027E2AD49B43F18CEF1AAA446DD8E7.jpg[/image]



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/25/2017 7:02:18 PM)

11/11/44

Surface Combat Near Shanghai: John sets his merchant TF tolerance to Low so that surface intercepts rarely happen. But today three DDs caught a big enemy TF approaching the Yangtze.


[image]local://upfiles/8143/BB0ED0C80D284C28A78127C28709AEAC.jpg[/image]



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/25/2017 7:09:28 PM)

11/11/44

Air Raid Shanghai: John's had a nest of seemingly decent ships at Shanghai since before the invasion. I'm not sure why he didn't evacuate early; I wondered if he hoped to entice a strike against the powerful CAP he had there. Of late, his CAP numbers have been way down. So today a series of sweeps dealt with his CAP (his fighters probably coming out ahead) and then some bombers from Aparri< Luzon, did good work.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/100FDCBE99E249938E2F36A95E9ED79E.jpg[/image]



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/25/2017 7:18:02 PM)

11/11/44

Attack Near Hanoi: The Allies make progress against one of the stronger enemy units seen in Indochina lately.

I don't have a strong army in Indochina, but I think it can handle the enemy, given time and a big assist from the Allied air force.

I won't send help in from China, as all Allied troops in China will move east (except a contingent to address Hong Kong and Canton, which I think will be evacuated or susceptible to reduction by air raid).


[image]local://upfiles/8143/2ED99A6D67534764B70731CA11B6C31B.jpg[/image]



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/25/2017 7:39:06 PM)

11/11/44

Coastal Front: Three Allied attacks on the Coastal Front, all successful. The first is the most important, as the Allies finally drive down and out two enemy divisions. Those divisions retired into the interior, where they can't extract themselves. The best thing John can do is let them sit in hopes they draw an Allied stack (that won't happen, it's a non-road hex).

John has a dispersed but decent army presence along the Coastal Front, but the roads to the interior are open now. The difficulty comes in deciding which units advance and which deal with the battered enemy units that will try to come back in behind my guys to threaten supply LOCs or take bases. That's why I divided 11th East African Div. at Pescadores to serve in an occupation role.

I'll post a map, but it may be early this evening.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/A193FEC0888B4D8483D7CF4ADB3B2CD5.jpg[/image]



Lowpe -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/25/2017 7:57:37 PM)

What a shame to lose an MTB in port like that.[:(] Well done, the other ships are just VP, unless it effect Japan's personal morale somehow.

I wouldn't worry too much about how B24s will impact the strategic bombing.[:)]

BTW, I think you made a tactical mistake playing with 2000 foot bombing runs. If you wanted to use them, you should have targeted lightly defended bases most likely the bases deep, and with resources, etc. rather than the big bases with plentiful AA.

Reasoning: Your B29s were the primary threat, and why needlessly reduce those limited pools for short term victory points -- you were going to get once Ningpo became operational? You can fly B24s low and probably really not worry about pools for quite a while, but I suspect with your supply concerns, it simply is expensive bombing and replacing planes from the pools.

I might sing a different tune if you were bombing individual targets. But you did learn what low level bombing is like at night. Now try it during the day!

I think you should look for light fighter & gun presence and go in low during the daytime to hit anything with some victory points present since your overall goal is vp generation. I know this violates your personal guidelines, but under these circumstances a LRCAP presence from Lightnings will allow the bombers to really concentrate. Or simply pick a very deep target and not worry about LRCAP.

There are several great targets to pick from high in resources that will likely have next to 0 protection, or just leaking CAP. If the runway present is low, guns low, and fighter present low, likely your swift 4Es can fly in before anyone can react.

A key to a successful bombing campaign is mixing it up and forcing Japan to really stretch their defenses.




Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/25/2017 8:19:45 PM)

11/11/44

Interior Front, China: An Allied attack at Kweilin fails miserably, but elsewhere the Chinese take Liuchow (severing the road to Indochina) and Chengte (worth 100 points and opening the road to Changhsa for an Allied stack).

Most importantly of all, one small Chinese corps that reached Hengyang (on the main road, just west of Changsha) attacked at 1:1 odds and found the enemy weak. Many more Chinese units arrived during the day and will shock attack tomorrow. If Hengyang falls, the Japanese position deteriorates badly.

Maps later.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/52AF62E57EB74F518ACBCF66984B2A28.jpg[/image]



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/25/2017 8:24:35 PM)

There are three IJA divisions involved in the Interior Front attacks and two involved in the Coastal Front attacks (with a third nearby). There are probably a number of other IJA divisions on the move, not yet under attack but facing the prospect of isolation or destruction. I believe the Japanese position is collapsing fast now.



paullus99 -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/25/2017 10:00:11 PM)

Wow - it does look very much like the collapse of the Germans in Normandy...now the Chinese are mobile, this is going to get very, very bad for John here, very quickly.

Once he's been levered out of prepared positions, there is nowhere in Southern China he's able to make a stand.....



jwolf -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/25/2017 11:10:38 PM)

That's great progress, especially if the Chinese can take Hengyang as you suggest they can. It's amazing how quickly the China theater changed between who was chasing whom.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/25/2017 11:15:37 PM)

There was never any doubt in my mind as to who was chasing whom. One of the weirder aspects of the opening of Peep Show was that the Allies landed at Foochow and moved down the coast and inland, rapidly and with success. Part of the plan was then to retire back to the coast (and safety) while Death Star departed to meet up with the merchantmen coming in from Pearl Harbor. I hoped that John might misperceive the retirement as a retreat and as a Japanese opportunity. I was skeptical that he'd actually pursue into base hexes, but I figured there was a chance that he would. He did.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/25/2017 11:21:54 PM)

11/11/44

Coastal China: An immensely significant day in the China campaign, as the tenuous Japanese position simply begins to fray and fly apart.

I think total collapse is imminent. If the Allies take Hengyang tomorrow - and they should, barring big IJ reinforcements arriving - then the route should be on.

The Japanese will have the option of moving to Hong Kong for a Dunkirk op - not a great op, because the Allies can shut down the sea lanes. Or they can push east as hard as possible, hoping to escape the pocket. Some units will make it. Some probably won't.

John may have 250,000 to 400,000 troops involved here. Maybe 5,000 to 10,000 victory points in play (possibly). Pursuit of his army and of the points it represents will be efficient, because the Japanese army is battered and will keep getting more battered.

Most of the Chinese units involved still have '41 squads. They were on the front lines in open, non-base hexes, so couldn't upgrade. Nor did I want them to retire for long journeys to bases that didn't have much supply anyhow. But the pools are full of squads and there is supply. The Chinese army should grow much stronger. All of this will move east and keep going as hard and as fast as possible. Where can John stop the combined Chinese and Western armies?

[image]local://upfiles/8143/7BD7161C6FD946BCAB4AF5FD0449F7CB.jpg[/image]



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/25/2017 11:27:34 PM)

Jeff (Lowpe), I read your thoughts about 4EB etc. carefully. I agree that the bombing at 2k hasn't worked well the way I did it. I did get lots of points and Osaka is a mess (and Tokyo is battered too), but I lost a heckuva lot of B-29s. I like Loka's thoughts about 2k and probably didn't incorporate important things into my strategy, thus not achieving as good results as he would. So I'll tinker with bombing at 7k or thereabouts for awhile. I'll tinker with lots of things to try to score points and hurt the enemy.




Lowpe -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/26/2017 12:07:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Where can John stop the combined Chinese and Western armies?



Maybe near Korea, Peiping to Tiensten but you probably can force a river crossing betwixt the two with Armor, or invade around. But so far Japan hasn't really excelled at the ground war and forward thinking about base development.

In my game with Tiemanj...I chose never to retreat at this point in China if I was dug in wood or wood rough or city terrain. Better to use the inherent forts and delay. The troops are meant to die, but if they can slow your advance down a day, a week, a month, cause you to use supply or especially divert your bombers from strategic bombing...well then that is something to get excited about (as a JFB).[;)] If there is no valid supply path the troops will fight a long time to the death never retreating.

You can get close to 10,000 victory points in one day of strategic bombing of Honshu.



Lowpe -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/26/2017 12:12:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Jeff (Lowpe), I read your thoughts about 4EB etc. carefully. I agree that the bombing at 2k hasn't worked well the way I did it. I did get lots of points and Osaka is a mess (and Tokyo is battered too), but I lost a heckuva lot of B-29s. I like Loka's thoughts about 2k and probably didn't incorporate important things into my strategy, thus not achieving as good results as he would. So I'll tinker with bombing at 7k or thereabouts for awhile. I'll tinker with lots of things to try to score points and hurt the enemy.




Go wild and experiment, try everything your fevered AFB mind can dream up.[:)] Especially look at the British heavy bomber funnies if the game lasts that long...right now they have a few long legged bombers great for diversionary night attacks say over Korea, but sometime in 45 get some really nifty bombers.

There is definitely a place for low level bombing. Right now all those IJN troops deposits you posted are screaming to be strafed by fighter bombers (especially the retreating ones)...but it always comes down to supply and clicks. Do you have the time enter all those clicks let alone the supply?[;)]



BBfanboy -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/26/2017 3:02:48 AM)

Very interesting that your Tk Bn defeated an entire IJA Tk Rgt and inflicted heavy casualties too! Was your Bn equipped with Shermans?



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/26/2017 3:22:25 AM)

Here you go.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/F1D40FDC2F5746069D8648406804C62D.jpg[/image]



BillBrown -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/26/2017 3:47:21 AM)

I would classify Col Magata as an excellent commander. As Symon stated, land skill is the most important thing for a LCU engaged in combat.
Couple that with the 80 in inspiration, and you get a unit with a leader that wins battles and is ready for the next one. Notice that that unit has
only 1 disruption and 6 fatigue after a good battle.



FlyByKnight -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/26/2017 5:01:47 PM)

Canoerebel, I've just caught up to your AAR after reading the Japanese perspective, I must say this has provided a fascinating perspective on the events of the game. Your posts make for a great contrast to John 3rd's.



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