RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (Full Version)

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Capt. Harlock -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/28/2018 3:32:41 AM)

quote:

1. Kongo sank following the clash with CB Alaska and two CLs at Fusan a week back. That was a tough and ugly day in some ways but turned out pretty well.


Well, I did say I'd enjoy a surface fight with Alaska in it. She didn't go to bottom alone. . .[sm=innocent0004.gif]


quote:

2. John mentions some kind of House Rule violation at the end, in connection with strategic bombing. He doesn't specify what, and I don't know what he might be referring to. There weren't any HRs pertaining to strategic bombing from 1944 on. I'd like to know what he's referring to.


I believe he was under the impression that there was an HR preventing 4E's from bombing below 10,000 feet. Perhaps he forgot that was for naval and ground attacks, but not strategic bombing.

. . . And I'd forgotten, but I complained about that rule! Well, it was over five years ago.



adarbrauner -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/28/2018 6:37:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

That was a figment of John's imagination. I did not have TFs of small fry out front to soak off enemy attacks - neither during the Great Naval Battle of Wake Island nor at any other time in the game. John thought I did. He was wrong.

What I did have at Wake Island was a vast and complex group of TFs. Death Star was at the center. Out front was a series of minesweepers, ASW and small combat TFs. These were DMS/AM, SC, and DD TFs. They were just in front of DS and to each side, not to soak off enemy air attacks but to address the threat of enemy subs, mines or combat TFs.

If that kind of deployment is questionable, I'd have to give up playing. What kind of nutty world would that be?


The problem is the relative tendency of a CV group to send in strikes even against small or very small target.

First of all, both opponents can do this, so no one has really ground to complain.

Secondly, that tendency is really light, the AI usually shall skip attacking small ships if there's detection of big "prays" in range.

Finally, no, the use of pickets is 1000% historical , and a smart and due practice for a player.

Only what, Japan is a bit disadvanteged in this due to scarcity of shipping and fuel.


The real issue underlying here is in my opinion the abuse of the "CAP trap" feature allowed by the game, which I don't think is realistic or plausible, for the reason that a big number of planes flying CAP should be detected, at least in part, by enemy's recon, and accordingly dealt with; in the way that the AI would skip strikes over relatively unimportant targets, if the presence of CAP over them is detected;



Panther Bait -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/28/2018 2:11:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

That was a figment of John's imagination. I did not have TFs of small fry out front to soak off enemy attacks - neither during the Great Naval Battle of Wake Island nor at any other time in the game. John thought I did. He was wrong.

What I did have at Wake Island was a vast and complex group of TFs. Death Star was at the center. Out front was a series of minesweepers, ASW and small combat TFs. These were DMS/AM, SC, and DD TFs. They were just in front of DS and to each side, not to soak off enemy air attacks but to address the threat of enemy subs, mines or combat TFs.

If that kind of deployment is questionable, I'd have to give up playing. What kind of nutty world would that be?


I think in the end, it was also a matter of max range. John's CVE's reacted well into Dan's carrier aircraft range, but John's CV's did not. The "small fry" escorting TF's were likely the only thing in range of John's CV strike planes, and the small fry had plenty of bleed-over CAP from the adjacent Death Star TFs. If Dan's CVs were one hex closer, the small fry would likely have been ignored for the Main Body, and the whole encounter might have been different.

Mike



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/28/2018 2:13:21 PM)

I also think that detection played a large part in things. I'd had high levels of detection on his carriers for many days. And night search had spotted his carriers early in the turn of the carrier clash. In contrast, John didn't have any detection on my carriers until the day of the clash. That seems like an environment that would breed catastrophe.



BBfanboy -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/28/2018 2:46:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I also think that detection played a large part in things. I'd had high levels of detection on his carriers for many days. And night search had spotted his carriers early in the turn of the carrier clash. In contrast, John didn't have any detection on my carriers until the day of the clash. That seems like an environment that would breed catastrophe.


+1 - you had great intel on the whereabouts of the various KB sections throughout the game with gaps of only a week or so.
You said it best when you made the comment about (accurate) Intel being the most valuable resource in the game. It drove every decision you had to make.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/28/2018 4:26:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aleajactaest10044

Well done to both of you, the amount of time you've spent in the game and posting AARs was definitely a mighty endeavor.

A request for both of you...message mirrored to both AARs.

1) Japan - what warships (DD and up) were still afloat at the end?
2) Allies - Can we see some loss reports for Submarines and destroyers?


Allies lost 152 destroyers and 64 submarines.



sanch -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/28/2018 5:13:16 PM)

This was a good read - I appreciate very much the effort you put into the AAR, not to mention the game itself.

Now I can go read John's AAR without any opsec worries.

Thanks for doing this!



JeffroK -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/28/2018 6:27:56 PM)

Is there any point in time, post CR's invasion of the Philippines, that JIII could have thrown a hefty spanner into the works??

I think, that properly planned (with DS far to the north) and executed, that Boela could have been shut down or at least severely interdicted threatening CR's LoC.

As well as any damage caused to its defenders, it may have seen DS head to its rescue and again, a well planned an executed operation to put some damage on DS with subs, mines then aircraft and surface vessels.

Had to be worth a try to put some hurt on CR.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/28/2018 7:01:14 PM)

No doubt, Jeff.

Boela was my achille's heel. Had John managed to take it out, the Allies might've been thrown off schedule for two or even three months. It would've been that serious.

Right now, for instance, there is 1 million supply in Korea to fund the ground war and air ops. That would last another month or so, but it was about time to send Death Star to the DEI to escort another slug of supply north. At Beola, I have 600k in port and 250 ships carrying about 6k each (roughly 1.5 million supply with more coming in). If John hit Boela now and managed to take out those ships, I'd have to scrounge to re-build the LOC. Since most of my empties are in Manila or Shanghai, getting them all the way back to Pearl via Oz and Pago Pago woud be excruciating. I'd probably have to stand down most air operations for an extended time.

Boela is defended but I relied more on the appearance of defense than actual numbers. The air force is and always has been stout. But sometimes the port was protected by a few DD TFs and nothing more. John didn't know that, and I understood how menacing Boela looked from his seat.

Right now, Boela is stoutly protected - two BBs, CB Guam, and several small carrier TFs with the usual array of CL/DD and DD TFs. This late in the war John didn't have enough to pose a real threat, but in '44 there were tense moments when his big raiders drew near.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/28/2018 9:06:04 PM)

Redacted (thanks BillBrown)



BillBrown -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/28/2018 9:11:11 PM)

I think you posted this in the wrong thread.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/28/2018 9:13:51 PM)

redacted (thanks Bill)



Lokasenna -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/28/2018 10:04:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Oddly, sometimes that helped me be more efficient at work. It forced me to remain disciplined and to plan ahead. And it gave me a break from working with words on computer screens for hours each day.



This is exactly why I'd prefer to work from home 50% of the time. I actually get more done because I feel guilty about totally ignoring work when I'm supposed to be working from home, so I'll work hard for a bit and cross some things off... then do laundry or whatever.

Whereas if I were at work on the same day with the same things to do, I'll spend 75% of the day messing around on the internet because hey at least I'm at work and I can always do those things later when they're actually due or due-ish. Almost all of my deadlines are personal or internal, which makes procrastination easy. But even us procrastinators can't just sit around at home for all that long after getting up and not get something done.



dave sindel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (3/1/2018 9:01:09 PM)

I've been away from the Forum this week - travelling on business. So this was my first inkling that this game had concluded. I would like to add my congratulations to you for a game well played and an AAR well written. I echo other members sentiments about "what will I read now?". Great job Dan.



DOCUP -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (3/1/2018 10:43:37 PM)

Canoerebel: Thanks for the great game and AAR.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (3/2/2018 7:41:21 PM)

Thanks for reading Dave and DOCUP and all other good folks of the Forum.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (3/2/2018 7:46:16 PM)

Today was the first day to try out the Peace Dividend, the additional time afforded by not devoting two or five or eight hours a day to turns. I'd been busy earlier in the week, but found myself this morning staring at the screen wishing there was a turn fresh in from John.

To overcome the ennui, I spent a few hours on the road, taking photos of two historic sites for upcoming stories in the magazine.

The first stop was at the Joseph Standing monument near Varnell, not far south of the Tennessee state line. Standing was a Mormon missionary shot by a gang in 1879. We have a story coming up called "There is No Law in Georgia for Mormons."



[image]local://upfiles/8143/FE3A4B07C0DF4ACE95561C5AF2E23EBE.jpg[/image]



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (3/2/2018 7:47:19 PM)

Heavy rain this week and throughout February has turned the countryside into marshland, with each creek and creeklet running full. This memorial property is marshy and has lots of little springs.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/E3C24B93DF5B43B68DEC603CF4EDF821.jpg[/image]



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (3/2/2018 7:47:52 PM)

The Standing monument.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/14EAE9989B334E3E8BDDE8C6D8335FA9.jpg[/image]



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (3/2/2018 7:48:14 PM)

The plaque.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/8BABCF3D174C4F45894BED7E3353A78B.jpg[/image]



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (3/2/2018 7:51:40 PM)

The second stop was to take photos at and near the George Disney grave. To reach this site, I hike about a mile steeply up a mountain (I think it's Rocky Face but I'm not positive).

In 1864, Confederate pickets had an outpost on the northern extremity of the mountain, just before the point where it sloped steeply downhill to Buzzard Roost Gap. The terrain, as shown in this photo, is rocky and falls steeply to a level valley. I-75 is just to the right of this photo.


[image]local://upfiles/8143/DC5821D8849144E2899FD969C3C47667.jpg[/image]



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (3/2/2018 7:53:04 PM)

This is Disney's grave. The headstone was placed by a Dalton Boy Scout troop in the 1930s.



[image]local://upfiles/8143/E43554EB13EA40618FD5EE7D381C1AD8.jpg[/image]



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (3/2/2018 7:57:44 PM)

According to the author a story about Disney, he was posted with other pickets observing Union troop movements in the valley to the north. One morning, his comrades found Disney slumped over, dead. They thought he'd had a heart attack until they found blood coming from his mouth. The conclusion was that he'd been shot by a sniper so distant that they hadn't noticed the sound of the shot.

My visit to the grave gave me a chance to look around. If Disney fell at or near the gravesite, there is no way he was hit by an aimed shot fired from the valley below, as I've always heard. The spot is on a narrow but flat piece of ground that would be protected from view from all points below. There's a chance a Union sharpshooter aimed in the general vicinity, knowing it was a picket post, and scored a blind hit.

Also, there's a mountain on the other side of Buzzard Roost Gap, pehraps a mile distant, as the crow flies. I don't know if Union or Rebel pickets occupied that point. I don't think even the best rifles had that kind of range, but I'm going to look into it, as that's the kind of thing your Forumites would do. Then you'd school me on possibilities.



[image]local://upfiles/8143/9B35C34616FC4602A837AC0FDAE57324.jpg[/image]



Capt. Harlock -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (3/3/2018 4:13:32 AM)

quote:

I don't know if Union or Rebel pickets occupied that point. I don't think even the best rifles had that kind of range, but I'm going to look into it, as that's the kind of thing your Forumites would do.


The Union, probably not. The Confederates, just maybe:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitworth_rifle



Bearcat2 -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (3/3/2018 12:26:56 PM)

The 66th Ill [4 x Missouri Companies, 3 x Illinois Companies, 2 x Ohio Companies, 1 x Michigan Companies] the western counterpart to the Eastern Berdan sharpshooters, was present and they had around 150 of the Dimick Rifle [55cal, octagonal barrel], these were specialized target rifles. There is a difference between effective range and maximum range, Whitworth had a maximum range of 1050 yds, the Springfield rifle was 900 yds; do not know what the Dimick's maximum range was, but it was originally designed for long range shooting on the plains and very few were made. Most of the 66th at that time were armed with 16 shot Henry repeaters.



MakeeLearn -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (3/3/2018 1:15:45 PM)

The story of his death as told in Thompson's "History of the Orphan Brigade":

"In February, 1864, Rocky Face Ridge was occupied by Johnston as a signal station. The Fourth Kentucky was so deployed as to form a living telegraph line from the valley next to Dalton to the top and front face of the Ridge at a point where, next to the Federals, the ascent was perpendicular. From the top of this ridge the Federal army was in full view. The next day after the formation of this line, there was a collision of the Federal and Confederate forces on the right of our line, and when the Federals would move, word was passed from man to man of the living telegraph, as, “Two more brigades advancing on such and such a point.” The first night after the formation of the telegraph, the men slept at their posts. The next morning George Disney, a private of Company B, arose to a sitting posture, after a night's sleep on the top of this height in the open air, and was in the act of gaping, as many men are wont to do on first awaking. He was seen suddenly to resume his recumbent position, as though resolved to take another nap; but after he had been so lying for an hour or two, men who tried to wake him found that life had departed. A careful examination at the time disclosed no wound, and it was conjectured that he had died from failure of the heart or other disease. Later, another examination was made, and while washing the face of the corpse, the hair on the back of his head was found stiff from clotted blood; and it was then clear that while gaping a minie ball from a Federal musket in the valley in front had entered the open mouth and crashed through the back of the head of the unfortunate soldier. He was a native of England." Virginius Hutcfien, (Fourth Kentucky).

gaping = yawning ? Shot in the mouth while yawning.

North Georgia Citizen, May 16, 1912 -- page 1


[image]local://upfiles/55056/F09BD2CBAD504A109FDE982E9B1157CF.jpg[/image]



MakeeLearn -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (3/3/2018 1:18:22 PM)

Shot into a open mouth.....an amazing shot, intentional or not. And more amazing that the sound was not heard as a threat... due to the fact that potshots, and maybe occasional cannon fire, were common background noise so the fatal shot was not perceived as important. Or was it during a thunderstorm?


And the shooter could have sneaked up close to the Rebel position.

[image]local://upfiles/55056/83B991C9C894410B865B8A44312E0527.jpg[/image]



MakeeLearn -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (3/3/2018 1:21:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearcat2

The 66th Ill [4 x Missouri Companies, 3 x Illinois Companies, 2 x Ohio Companies, 1 x Michigan Companies] the western counterpart to the Eastern Berdan sharpshooters, was present and they had around 150 of the Dimick Rifle [55cal, octagonal barrel], these were specialized target rifles. There is a difference between effective range and maximum range, Whitworth had a maximum range of 1050 yds, the Springfield rifle was 900 yds; do not know what the Dimick's maximum range was, but it was originally designed for long range shooting on the plains and very few were made. Most of the 66th at that time were armed with 16 shot Henry repeaters.




This shows 66th Illinois Infantry Regiment time frame on Feb.24, 1864 as being in Illinois:


"January 22, the men received four months' pay and $100 veteran bounty. On the 23d, left Louisville and took cars for Chicago, where they arrived January 28, and marched to North Market Hall, Here the Regiment received its thirty days' veteran furlough.

On March 3, 1864, the Regiment re-assembled at Joliet, Ill.,"

Although, that may just be part of the unit that had returned to Illinois.

https://civilwar.illinoisgenweb.org/history/066.html



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (3/3/2018 1:31:07 PM)

Thanks for the information, gents.

If he was buried where he was hit, there is no way it was an aimed shot from "a federal musket in the valley." But, as noted above, perhaps a Union soldier took a blind shot knowing there were Confederates on the mountain in that vicinity. The only other plausible explanation is that a Union picket or scout climbed the mountain and fired an aimed shot from relatively close by, though that seems more unlikely.



MakeeLearn -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (3/3/2018 1:49:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Thanks for the information, gents.

If he was buried where he was hit, there is no way it was an aimed shot from "a federal musket in the valley." But, as noted above, perhaps a Union soldier took a blind shot knowing there were Confederates on the mountain in that vicinity. The only other plausible explanation is that a Union picket or scout climbed the mountain and fired an aimed shot from relatively close by, though that seems more unlikely.


"... clotted blood"
Or.... he was shot in the back of the head in the previous action, did not tell anyone and died later on.



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