kinda leary... (Full Version)

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krull -> kinda leary... (2/10/2001 11:15:00 AM)

Kinda nervous about posting on Cl forum. I don't like to get flamed for my opinions. And mostly yall guys don't. SO here it is. I felt bad about not staying intrested in CL. So i went and bought every copy of CC i didnt already have. I played them over and over. And if this is an indication of sorta what It will be like. I guess I buy game for the company and not its contents. Even tried that demo they told me about its based on. I realy wasn't very impressed. Felt like i was just trying to move shoot wait to be obeyed move shoot. OOO look a tank oo BOOM dead tank from an infantry units fire. CC5 wasn't that much better than the first ones. Sigh. AH well I hope I am not only one thinking of this. I trust Matrix but I don't trust have the posts i read there it's mostly about Looks. SOme on gameplay but mostly on how the game play will LOOK. Thats the most iI have realy worried out loud In years.



Don -> (2/10/2001 3:01:00 PM)

I agree with you about CC, Krull. I've got 4 of them and when I try to play them after I've found SPWAW, I don't like it at all. But, I will say that there are alot of great ideas that have been proposed for CL, and depending on how many are implemented, this could be a great game. Many of these ideas are not being seen because they're on private forums, but I think that this new game will definitely warrant a try-out. I think that's all we can ask at this point! ------------------ Don



krull -> (2/10/2001 9:35:00 PM)

ok Well hopefully your right. Crosses his fingers andd screams prayers at the Computer game gods of war(MATRIX) [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]



Panzer Capta -> (2/10/2001 10:06:00 PM)

Agree with you guys. I have also played the CC series and, although it is sometimes an interesting diversion, nothing compares with the SPWAW system. I just do not like the totally disorganized sense of the real time games. Many argue that disorganziation is a part of battle and, although this is very true on a small scale, there must be "big picture" organization in the successful employment of most military tactics. Perhaps it is my own limitations, but i dont find any sense of organization and control when playing the "CC-type" games. This leads to frustration and, ultimately, complete disinterest. I dont mean to anticipate that CL will be this way that would be ignorance on my part. If anyone can make it successful the Matrix guys can. Lets wait and see.



Paul Vebber -> (2/10/2001 10:45:00 PM)

Don't blame you guys for being leery based on playing what the continuos time mode is pattern after. BUT, remeber that there is also a turn based mode that we hope will help with folks not into continuoue time games. Try TacOps (earlier versions are on underdogs with Major H's permission) or Combat Mission to see how a turn based "give orders to your guys, then they move" approach works. From my perspective talking to lots of folks is that it comes down to a matter of control, those of you who don't like continous time tend not to like it becasue you feel like you are watching more than participating? Is that true? We hope to address that within the "turn based" framework. If you feel more comfotable posting about CL over hear, I get around [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] What ever gets the info out!



Warhorse -> (2/10/2001 11:56:00 PM)

Hello folks, well I can honestly say that if everything goes as planned, you will not be disappointed, just hang in there!! ------------------ Mike Amos Meine Ehre Heisst Treue



Tankhead -> (2/11/2001 12:18:00 AM)

Thanks Paul and Warhorse! I'm one of those that don't like real time but as Paul said "BUT, remeber that there is also a turn based mode that we hope will help with folks not into continuoue time games." Great this is my cup of tea. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] "those of you who don't like continous time tend not to like it becasue you feel like you are watching more than participating? Is that true?" Yes it's true plus you end with your hand dissable from clicking the mouse a gizillion time. Try the old warcraft ARGGG! Looking forward to CL Tankhead ------------------ Rick Cloutier [email]rcclout@telusplanet.net[/email] Coordinator: Tankhead's SPWAW Resources http://members.tripod.com/tankhead__1 [This message has been edited by Tankhead (edited February 10, 2001).]



Arralen -> (2/11/2001 12:19:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by krull: Even tried that demo they told me about its based on. I realy wasn't very impressed. Felt like i was just trying to move shoot wait to be obeyed move shoot. OOO look a tank oo BOOM dead tank from an infantry units fire.
You're not talking about the demo of "Firefight" (by: Sean O'Conners Windowsgames), are you? As far as I understand it, Cl will be based on that engine and has nothing to do with CC, CM,C-XY or whatsoever - no matter what some in this crowd seem to believe - or did I get something wrong here? Besides, there is a tank in that demo, but it won't die from Inf fire - there's a AT gun hidden somewhere [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] ... try to roll over it with the tank, and see some little men run away in panic .. roll over them as well [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] Arralen



Wallymanowar -> (2/11/2001 1:36:00 AM)

One of the problems we have with what we don't like about continuous time is the fact that we don't know. We've had centuries of pondering over the turn-based system (if you start with games like chess) while we've only been able to experience continuous time for maybe the last ten years. So you can see that while we can point out the shortcomings of turn-based rather easily it is rather more difficult to pinpoint the problems of continuous time - as it applies to gaming. It is a lot like engineering - you know the problems you are faced with now so you build a new system to overcome those problems, but you don't know what problems you may be creating. A lot of the resistance to changing is brought on by the 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it' mentality. Some of the resistance is from the 'Wait and see' crowd - if you're going to put down good money for something, you want to be sure it's going to work properly. On the other hand are the reasons for changing. You have the 'Change for change sake' crowd who say because it's old it has to be no good and needs to be changed. Then there's the 'Let's include all the latest gadgets' crowd who tend to push in all the latest inovations whether they work or not. and finally the 'Better Mousetrap' people who are actively trying to improve the system. Finally there's the 'Try it, You might like it' people, who are willing to accept change as a natural evolution but also have to be willing to provide feedback in order to let the designers know what is going right as well as what is going wrong. Which group do you think you fit into? [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] ------------------ 'Bitter Mike'



Alby -> (2/11/2001 6:13:00 AM)

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: From my perspective talking to lots of folks is that it comes down to a matter of control, those of you who don't like continous time tend not to like it becasue you feel like you are watching more than participating? Is that true? A friend sent me the game combat mission, so I tried it out, he was very adamant about me trying it, and thats the feeling I got, like i was basically just watching the action. Alby



Wallymanowar -> (2/11/2001 9:40:00 AM)

Sorry about the Triple post - my Browser went haywire.



AmmoSgt -> (2/11/2001 9:46:00 AM)

The marketing technique that is going to sell CL and other games to die hard SP series fans... is support of SP series games not the merits of the other games ...I'm startin to wonder if realtime is ordaining preachers or something ..



krull -> (2/11/2001 9:50:00 PM)

well paul Hit me worry right on the head. Thats words i was looking for. If i wonted to watch id watch the history channel. heheh WHich i do alot. But theres something i didnt liek about demo to that firefight one. Cant exactly put it into words. Hmmm sorta like Im watching a bunch of faceles units and stuff run around. Ah pooie i cant find word im looking for. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/frown.gif[/img] ah how about this A kinda of lack of feel for the units as in DAMN My Cha-Hi Just got blown up FUDGE i had that thing forever. Etc, Or say for some there favorite Tiger tank dies. Kinda like that. I just can't seem to see those units as my men. Maybe it is jst the lack of feeling im doing something in the battle.



USMCGrunt -> (2/12/2001 1:49:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Tankhead: Thanks Paul and Warhorse! I'm one of those that don't like real time but as Paul said "BUT, remeber that there is also a turn based mode that we hope will help with folks not into continuoue time games." Great this is my cup of tea. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] "those of you who don't like continous time tend not to like it becasue you feel like you are watching more than participating? Is that true?" Yes it's true plus you end with your hand dissable from clicking the mouse a gizillion time. Try the old warcraft ARGGG! Looking forward to CL Tankhead
I think the battle between real-time and turn based has raged for years over which is more realistic. I personally do not like the real-time model in games. People that do have a tendency to say that it is more realistic because you have to think on your feet. My opinion is that the average colonel is too busy planning strategy to be saying, "OK, first squad/3rd platoon, fire on that machine gun. 2nd squad/3rd platoon, move to that tree area and fire on that squad in the open" I'm sorry, but there's just too much going on for 1 man to tell everyone everything. That's why sergeants and corporals take the initiative on the orders they were given. I've played games like Warcraft and Starcraft, and after a brief interval, they are passed on out of the CD case, while SP1 is still in there from it's original release. I will add though, that I am a big fan of the WEPLAN - WEGO feature of Combat Mission. It definately force you to think on your toes and to plan for the unexpected. ------------------ USMCGrunt -When it absolutely, positively, has to be destroyed overnight.



Warrior -> (2/13/2001 1:46:00 PM)

Tried CC. Gave the games to my girlfriend's kid.



skukko -> (2/13/2001 2:50:00 PM)

Don't start war in here. When I don't want turnbased or close to it, I get joystick and head my Hurricane towards enemy, or try another ride on Hind or Longbow, or drive rally or tracks with bikes. I don't want to sweat while ordering people to die. CL sounds good (CC sounds great while they are under fire) choice to be beside this ancient engine we call SPWAW4.0 or 6.7 or whatever. And still there is Jagged alliance waiting to get business finished. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] mosh mosh



AmmoSgt -> (2/13/2001 4:07:00 PM)

The think that makes me crazy is all this wave of the future crap .. turn based is older than chess wego is older than tennis and role player is older than shakespear ... there are no really new way for two or more folks to interact under a set of rules from basketball to majong .. what would actually be new .. is better AI or even better Human on Human faciliation improvements ....PBsnailMail didn't start with chess ... computers help and are getting better and stuff but unless you can get AI up to where Humans can be on a good day they aren't there yet .. may never be but thats what would be new ( ok well not new- new, romans train slaves to play games to entertain them or to test them ) somehow computers can get around those pressing social issues ... but computers are to the mind what steam engines are to the back and strong arm .. it is not just turn based V realtime ... look at how fans in the NBA take to a rule change heat on both sides and thats just one rule designated Hitter that was HEAT ..controversy .. but Look at XFL same game sorta packaged different we still got "real" football but if somebody started spreadin the rumor that XFL was just going to replace the NFL because it was the wave of the future the sky would fall in and we would have the end times .. Turn based... has been ...is ...and will be a valid and timely aproach to games and situation modeling .. Lotta crap got thrown a computers to make a buck in the first 10 years of gaming .. but Minature Wargaming is old over a hundred years in the game format we know it far older than that in other forms more serious and way back past chess to GO 3000 years or so ago .. we got the first real contender in the SP series for a long term computerized Minatures style wargame lets not blow it by not thinking through what the history of wargaming is and that all the video/special effects in the world will never trump a good solid playable game .



Don -> (2/13/2001 4:32:00 PM)

Uhhh...OK! But, the designated hitter still sucks, and so does the XFL! LOL I'm just hoping for a game that can fill in a few of the things that SPWAW doesn't have, plus give the programmers a new engine to do un-heard of things with. ------------------ Don



Reg -> (2/13/2001 5:36:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: From my perspective talking to lots of folks is that it comes down to a matter of control, those of you who don't like continous time tend not to like it becasue you feel like you are watching more than participating? Is that true?
To me this is the the central issue. It's true that the average minatures player (I put SP in the same category) generally plays about 3 command levels at the same time (battalion commander down to platoon commander) and micro manages far more than any real commander. Real time on the other hand, gives a far more realistic recreation of what a single command level officer would face and models his influence on events more accurately. BUT, when I played the firefight demo (I played multiple times to make sure) I got the impression I was on a truck without brakes careering wildly down a steep hill, totally out of control!! I found my self wildly scrolling from one side of the battlefield to the other praying that I hadn't missed anything of importance, positioning units to give support fire but by the time it was all set up, the main attack had already reached their objectives (for better or worse). It was just like trying to nail jelly to a tree (to use a common expression). The element I think I missed the most was the ability to PLAN!!! Not that this MG was to sit behind this tree and this man was to fire through this window but to set up unit fire zones, attack objectives, support arrangements etc. Once the objectives are reached you should be able to call time out, have an 'O Group' and distribute the next phase of your plan to your men. I don't really think these planning halts should be based on any artifical time interval but should be triggered by an event such as objective achievment or a deliberate orders change, no matter how long this takes. (For example, at El Alamein the infantry advanced 200 yds then stopped in the middle of the featureless desert awaiting further orders). Combine the best points of both systems and I think you will have something special on your hands!!! Just throwing a few thoughts in the air, Reg.



lnp4668 -> (2/13/2001 8:48:00 PM)

I hope CL will be more similar to CM than CC. I played both and I really think CM hits it on the head with the realistic tension of a battlefield commander who have the capability to plan, but not to react to every situations on the field.



Mark Ezra -> (2/13/2001 9:50:00 PM)

I've got a lot of confidence in Matrix to come up with a game that I'll want to play for years. These guys have listened to the SP community and I have no doubt that the game will reflect our common interest. It should also open new doors for us as well. I have heard mention that a beta demo of CL will be available sometime in the future. I certainly hope so. CM had a beta demo out long before game release. It acted as proving ground for the engine as well a valuable marketing tool for gamer imput and support.



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