RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (Full Version)

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HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/29/2013 6:57:05 PM)

This is the situation at the start of turn 12 AGC ....[image][/image]

[image]local://upfiles/40137/C184F8F8859D4BA9B3B3D6DADBE93056.jpg[/image]

THEPROS don't usualy defend clear hexes and due to failed attacks on turn 11 4 hexes (black circles) and a 5th (yellow circle) offered nice areas of isolation due to an undefended area (faint red circle.) Opening attacks are crucial in a series of assaults leading to isolation (as in this case) so the first one (yellow square) ...failed. Two strong division activations and bad odds. The good thing about server games is that you can't lick your wounds. You go on and play. But in PBEM ... I chose to lick my wounds. I repeated that attack and found it triggered 2 division activation about 1/3 of the time and in ten instances when two div activation occurred, retreat alway occurred.

What was really frustrating is several divisions that failed in the attack were out of MP's and a second key attack failed (yellow line.)

I had unbelieveable power available, opportunity to isolate 7-9 good units (something I seldom have had) and failed miserably.

THEPROS gave me an easy opportunity.

I cleared out the joint with retreats (routs) but caused only 15-20,000 cas versus 7-80,000 captured.

But my beef... reserve activation ... the way it works is ... crazy. I'm surprised that the top players haven't already belly-ached about it. Here are my views...

Enemy units in hexes that are on the front line, hexes that potentially could be in enemy ZOC, can be activated. They just vacate a front line defensive position, run to help their comrades under attack, and turn 180 degrees back to their original postion. In 1941 ??? Infantry units ??? Give me a break.

Units can be activated 5 hexes distant. Even worse, this can include hexes that cross enemy occupied hexes. I experienced this in the above turn.

Finally a distant unit can be activated and (in game terms) "travel" thru 2-3 hexes of units standing aimlessly around.

So it doesn't matter the year (maturity of the Red Army), the unit type, the issue of a unit being on the front line, or the distance from the battle focus, .... it's an insane game rule. Activation dominates in late summer/fall 41. It shouldn't IMO.



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/29/2013 7:43:42 PM)

So AGC after my turn[image][/image]

[image]local://upfiles/40137/73E4892EB0F642F8B4F700C05CFEF194.jpg[/image]



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/29/2013 7:45:59 PM)

[image][/image]



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/29/2013 7:48:44 PM)

[image][/image]

[image]local://upfiles/40137/EFA6F34DB1CC4CD3843758968DC04574.jpg[/image]



sillyflower -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/29/2013 10:02:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

This is the situation at the start of turn 12 AGC

[

THEPROS don't usualy defend clear hexes and due to failed attacks on turn 11 4 hexes (black circles) and a 5th (yellow circle) offered nice areas of isolation due to an undefended area (faint red circle.)
THEPROS gave me an easy opportunity.




I have to say I didn't think I had given you an easy opportunity, as opposed to an opportunity for me to counterattack your armour in the open. You don't exactly give us many opportunities.



Michael T -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/29/2013 11:20:30 PM)

quote:

But my beef... reserve activation ... the way it works is ... crazy. I'm surprised that the top players haven't already belly-ached about it


Well I have moaned about it a fair while back. Even had a house rule for it in my Tarhunaas game.

* Reserves limited to three units per HQ, of which only two may be divisions or corps.

And in light of playing Axis again I think I might use it again.



Belphegor -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/29/2013 11:50:18 PM)

stop using tow-based glider cameras. every time I shoot one down I get a two for one special... see? [:'(]





quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

TURN 12 is finished with frustration in AGC.. but first the recon issue


As I mentioned Blephegor is able to interdict all Axis missions without fighter escort, including recon. He has hit it hard. But to me recon planes are such an abundance... but I am not going to needlessly waste them





[image]local://upfiles/11973/BF81BBDF24EB445F9778A69A8443DA40.jpg[/image]



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/30/2013 1:40:34 AM)

How do I lose utility when I'm sending out (only) unescorted recon ???? There are little things to learn , but what am I'm doing wrong (besides playing over my head) ????

In terms of you chewing on my armor, you've already hurt me once Blephegor. That was the failure of my AGC plan in the isolation ....I would be unable to stack 2-3 units twix the isolated hexes and your possible relief forces. The isolation would have been fairly easy to achieve, even after the helds. But securing them was the problem.



KenchiSulla -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/30/2013 9:34:47 AM)

In my game vs Seminole reserve activation has killed my offensive (that and my inexperience). Units jumping all over the map..Soviets have the advantage that they have a lot of chances to add at least one division to the defense through reserve activation. You have to attack with overwhelming odds or use offensive reserve activation (with regiments, the germans don't have the counters to pull the same trick as the soviets).



Peltonx -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/30/2013 12:49:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

In my game vs Seminole reserve activation has killed my offensive (that and my inexperience). Units jumping all over the map..Soviets have the advantage that they have a lot of chances to add at least one division to the defense through reserve activation. You have to attack with overwhelming odds or use offensive reserve activation (with regiments, the germans don't have the counters to pull the same trick as the soviets).


Bobo was very good at it also.

Made attacking harder over all, slowed down advance. SHC C&C sucked so to see them get activations every battle in 41 is wierd.



Peltonx -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/30/2013 12:53:15 PM)

GHC is still doing about as good as historical as far as land goes.

4.5 million men for SHC is sillyness at best.

The killer as always will be blizzard, GHC is going to get completely trashed + a huge loss of morale. = No spring or summer offensive = SHC will start bleeding GHC in mid summer 42. = GSM in 44.



Belphegor -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/30/2013 1:53:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

How do I lose utility when I'm sending out (only) unescorted recon ???? There are little things to learn , but what am I'm doing wrong (besides playing over my head) ????

In terms of you chewing on my armor, you've already hurt me once Blephegor. That was the failure of my AGC plan in the isolation ....I would be unable to stack 2-3 units twix the isolated hexes and your possible relief forces. The isolation would have been fairly easy to achieve, even after the helds. But securing them was the problem.



I think recon is treated as a utility aircraft.

I also think that you shouldn't worry too much about recon losses. You aren't losing enough to worry about yet.



sillyflower -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/30/2013 3:41:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

quote:

But my beef... reserve activation ... the way it works is ... crazy. I'm surprised that the top players haven't already belly-ached about it


Well I have moaned about it a fair while back. Even had a house rule for it in my Tarhunaas game.

* Reserves limited to three units per HQ, of which only two may be divisions or corps.



Gosh, does this mean you worry about Soviets lasting longer against you than T10 [:@]?



sillyflower -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/30/2013 3:45:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

In terms of you chewing on my armor, you've already hurt me once Blephegor. That was the failure of my AGC plan in the isolation ....I would be unable to stack 2-3 units twix the isolated hexes and your possible relief forces. The isolation would have been fairly easy to achieve, even after the helds. But securing them was the problem.


Giving Sean the credit for defence against AGC?? Hrrumph.

Screenie below is just to get the vein in Pelton's temple going overtime. See how even the mighty Red Airforce under the wise command of Belphegor is more than a match for the Nazis.


[image]local://upfiles/35790/2C34AABB91754F5EA37442239CADE2E0.jpg[/image]

Looking back I think the main reason for the poor state of the LW (fewer than 1800 serviceable a/c in T12) was Hitman's decision not to bomb the Red Airforce on T1. It's left us with more decent a/c and our units with higher morale and experience, which means it shoots down more LW a/c, and so gains higher morale and experience and so on.



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/30/2013 4:54:22 PM)

Sillyflower, to praise an underling when the supereme commander merits it, my apology. How you broke an isolation in AGC on turn 6 or so really opened my eye to what a well-handled Soviet Army can do. Also Blephegor abused me and put an entire Pz Corp out of action for two turns (displaced the HQ.) I'm a lot more cautious with my force's disposition at the end of each turn.

About my decision not to wage an all-out first turn air assault ... When I first played WITE 16 months ago the Axis first turn air assault took out roughly 4000-5000 Red air-frames at a cost of 150-200 Luf. I forgot with what patch, but that number fell significantly 1 year ago to where instead the thousands of destroyed at a 20 to 1 kill ratio, I remembered, on trial runs, to only achieve 2500-3000 destroyed at a 10 to 1 ratio.

Ketza ,in his "Axis war diary I and II" discussed the advantage of not doing the first turn assault and letting the Soviets (on the first turn) throw air defensive ground support up (with planes that would have been destroyed otherwise) and letting the German air get cheap victories to build ip their fighter morale. Also Ketza said only attack airfields that you could over run the first turn (it would destroy any planes only damaged in the airfield attack.) I produced 1000-1200 destroyed. My thinking was that the loss in level bombers (now so valuable in Pz refueling.. I am a hypocrit to fuss at reserve activation only) was not worth the first turn attack. And it was a technical major p in the a.



rmonical -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/30/2013 9:48:34 PM)

Luftwaffe fighter moral never seems to be a problem for me. Between 2500 and 3000 kills during airfield assault phase. I just wish I could form more fighter groups.

[image]local://upfiles/38006/5DB2006B4BED4A9CBF84EAE08D181E13.jpg[/image]



rmonical -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/30/2013 10:10:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

So it doesn't matter the year (maturity of the Red Army), the unit type, the issue of a unit being on the front line, or the distance from the battle focus, .... it's an insane game rule. Activation dominates in late summer/fall 41. It shouldn't IMO.


There is a downside to reserve activation. In this case, the reserve Tank Division routed with the attacked division. I think there is some additional "intelligence" in the reserve algorithm in that reserves seem to activate more often against low odds attacks rather than high odds attacks.

[image]local://upfiles/38006/B866FD50EF7F4DCB9B64CDE04D721E19.jpg[/image]



sillyflower -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/31/2013 12:55:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

About my decision not to wage an all-out first turn air assault ... When I first played WITE 16 months ago the Axis first turn air assault took out roughly 4000-5000 Red air-frames at a cost of 150-200 Luf. I forgot with what patch, but that number fell significantly 1 year ago to where instead the thousands of destroyed at a 20 to 1 kill ratio, I remembered, on trial runs, to only achieve 2500-3000 destroyed at a 10 to 1 ratio.

Ketza ,in his "Axis war diary I and II" discussed the advantage of not doing the first turn assault and letting the Soviets (on the first turn) throw air defensive ground support up (with planes that would have been destroyed otherwise) and letting the German air get cheap victories to build ip their fighter morale. Also Ketza said only attack airfields that you could over run the first turn (it would destroy any planes only damaged in the airfield attack.) I produced 1000-1200 destroyed. My thinking was that the loss in level bombers (now so valuable in Pz refueling.. I am a hypocrit to fuss at reserve activation only) was not worth the first turn attack. And it was a technical major p in the a.


As you know, it used to be my job to tell doctors after the event, with all the benefit of hindsight, whether or not they had done the right thing, and old habits die hard. You are the first of our opponents to follow Ketza and the first to have such high LW losses in '41. Just saying y'all. Still, if you don't try, you never find out anything. Now be a good chap and stick a couple more panzers out for me please.



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/31/2013 4:31:24 AM)

You can't argue against success or justify failure. I'm facing (in the air war '41) the latter. Ketza, come to my aid. A true teacher does defend his disciples.

Sillyflower, hindsight is 20/20. But I will remind you that our contest (this is no longer just a game to me, my opponenets) is far from being decided. I'm not saying I'll win (or even have a good chance of a draw ...Pelton and I are discussing his consultation fees)
but a few hundred extra destroyed air-frames means diddly-squat.



hugh04 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/31/2013 4:42:00 AM)

Reserve activation can be very dangerous for the soviet in 41. As axis you must stop the single division hasty attack and instead target higher odds deliberate assaults. The key to this is you must have enough pioneers and artillery to support your attacks. I take 50% of army group south artillery and almost all engineer's as an example and give them to army group center. If you grind the soviet without proper su commitment, then you will suffer accordingly.

vandev



cpt flam -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/31/2013 8:42:44 AM)

I think that you must look the moral of your bombers.
You will have probably to go by the reserve to recover, otherwise things will be worst.
If you have some problems you can even go from bombers to FB (actually Me110).
I made it with night bombers [;)]



sillyflower -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/31/2013 11:25:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202



Sillyflower, hindsight is 20/20. But I will remind you that our contest (this is no longer just a game to me, my opponenets) is far from being decided. I'm not saying I'll win (or even have a good chance of a draw ...Pelton and I are discussing his consultation fees)
but a few hundred extra destroyed air-frames means diddly-squat.


Correct on all counts. You need to buy Pelton's mod: the one he used against MT [;)]



sillyflower -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/31/2013 11:50:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vandev

Reserve activation can be very dangerous for the soviet in 41. As axis you must stop the single division hasty attack and instead target higher odds deliberate assaults. The key to this is you must have enough pioneers and artillery to support your attacks. I take 50% of army group south artillery and almost all engineer's as an example and give them to army group center. If you grind the soviet without proper su commitment, then you will suffer accordingly.

vandev


what it is doing is greatly reducing the number of attacks Hitperson can make in the north and centre, and a couple of holds against big attacks can make a big difference as happened to AGC in T12. I don't think Hitperson has used even deliberate single div attacks in these areas for several turns. Of course, reserve use can be counterproductive for the soviet in '41 (or the German in '43 onwards) if not done well enough. That applies to every tactic. This AAR will show how well/badly I'm using it.

Tip for soviet players: don't neglect refit for reserves. Get low strength units (including all unready ones if you can)or ones with low morale,especially those which have higher experience than morale, out of the way to refit in the rear.



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/31/2013 3:41:32 PM)

Since a conversation about the air war was started by Sillyflower (beginning with an unfair and mean spirited comparision of my management of the Luftwaffe with the Japanese's use of the kamikaze ... well to me he was heading in that direction) I'm going to throw out some of my thoughts on it.

You don't see players talking a lot about the air war because most feel like it's 1) very complicated (just looking at the Air Doctrine Screen is intimidating), 2) so many counters (and I have never played the Soviets) with, in many cases, their inclusion in the game is for historical accurracy (ie. they have no impact on the game itself) and 3) you already got so much to learn.

When I first started the game I read a lot of Q-Ball's comments (he's now a WITP devotee) and he often admitted ignorance to the air war. In fact Sillyflower, who has no small opinion of his expertise in WITE, the supreme commander of the Sovlet's in this AAR, admits to letting Blephegor conduct the air war.

My approach to the Axis air war has been based on Ketza's writings (heresies ???? and he has yet come to my defense) and a view most have for their undergarments (diapers in my line of work Sillyflower) .... you use them until they're worn out.



sillyflower -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/31/2013 4:13:31 PM)


Airwar is relatively simple in execution though can requires disproportionate micro management relative its importance. Belphegor (sic; why are you still obsessed with eyelids?) is much more organised than I am with it.

Probably the only exception to the above is how a few skilled Germans use/abuse(delete to choice) it purely as an airborne petrol supply network in '41.

Learning one has to allocate individual pilots in WITPAE has put me off that game for life. Hardly a job for the theatre commander.

I make no criticism whatever of your post T1 use of LW nor do I regard your T1 as anything more than a failed experiment.



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/3/2013 1:56:20 AM)

TURN 13.....TURN 13....TURN 13

Each game tends to take on a character of its own starting turn 10 or so and so mine with THEPROS. (The character is not in reference to THEPROS supreme commander, Sillyflower, nor, Blephepor, to my ineptness in responding to your patient guidance in figuring out the problem in our E-mails this weekend.)

Back to the air war. Here's the status of my fighter force ...the LW has bled but these dudes are impressive on TURN 13.

[image][/image]

[image]local://upfiles/40137/87903527AEA944EDBCD3194125037543.jpg[/image]



Their experience is at 90 average and morale 97. Their numbers are at near maximum.



Question ... At what fatigue level should you rest a air unit ???



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/3/2013 2:11:57 AM)

The Finnish sector I've been purposely silent about. Sillyflower did some legerdemain prior to turn 4 that led to me isolating zippo divisions. I've never experienced that before. Also he established the "standard" northern defensive line. I have hit it a number of times (and have had a number of helds) and eventually displaced the southern most hex in the D-line. Why ??? Like all good commanders, you got to do something (even if it's bad.)

[image][/image]

[image]local://upfiles/40137/E964FE955C414F92A0AA3988B0164814.jpg[/image]

This turn I displaced the northern most hex. So we will see what happens.



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/3/2013 2:24:30 AM)

AGN....AGN....AGN

Attacks across the Neva can be bloody, so I had 18 units available to do the job (including the studs I,II,and XXIII Corp) and a handful of others, but was surprised. I only faced a weak level 3 fort and easily carried the hex

[image][/image]

[image]local://upfiles/40137/CC13F3A1A88B44FBBC5732DD0B3FE841.jpg[/image]

The second attack west of the captured hex barely lost 1.9-1 and if it had fallen could have made a deliberate attack on Nestivets. I did a foolish hasty (looking for snake-eyes.)



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/3/2013 2:29:15 AM)

The rest AGN

[image][/image]

[image]local://upfiles/40137/7379B3C2EADD43BB9230266A550A24D4.jpg[/image]



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/3/2013 2:31:24 AM)

AGC in three screen shots (will eventually upgrade to better pics ie bigger).

[image][/image]

[image]local://upfiles/40137/4591EB22847C4251AC48ABC1F9CEE692.jpg[/image]



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