RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (Full Version)

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HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/3/2013 2:32:23 AM)

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HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/3/2013 2:33:38 AM)

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I failed to show the fort strength in the middle screen in AGC, but most are level 2. I'm surprised that their strenth is down.

I finally started what I should done beginning on the 7th or 8th turn .... concentrate all the Pz on one edge of the fort network and chew off little pieces (isolate.) I'll be bumping into the Oka soon, but at least I'm doing the right thing. A good lesson for me in future games (SLY [:D][:D][sm=00000055.gif]



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/3/2013 2:48:17 AM)

AGS.....AGS.....AGS

THEPROS are still retreating, but I made an aggressive move that will pose problems if they stand fast at Stalino. I think that they will continue to fall back towards Rostov.

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HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/3/2013 2:50:26 AM)

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HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/3/2013 2:52:03 AM)

And THEPROS are abandoning the Crimea

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HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/3/2013 2:55:03 AM)

And the Numbers

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So turn 13... here's my thoughts.

1) Finland... next theatre

2) AGN... Leningrad will fall with around 100,000 dudes or so. The Finns will hold on the Volkov during the blizzard. Done with the help of 4 Pz divisions from AGC. I think the transfer was wise, because I doubt Leningrad would have fallen . Why ??? Since the 5th turn their presence helped (in my estimation) take an average of 1 and 1/2 additional hexes a turn. So over 8 turns (5th-12 th turns), 12 hexes were captured that would otherwise have become stronger forts, more difficult to take, more holds, giving THEPROS more motivation to hold it, and so on.

To face the blizzard without the Finnish help in AGN would be a potential disaster. I think that was the key factor in Pelton-MT AAR, for Pelton to retreat so far back in '41 (so far Pelton-MT gets my vote for the 2013 WITE Academy Award for best drama/comedy)


3) AGC... I'll be about 5 or so hexes from Moscow. Have time to build some D-line for late blizzard. I'm thinking about starting to build a fort network, with some fortifications, 18 or so hexes back. I'm playing to run like a rabbit come blizzard. I prefer running to having Sillyflower smile as he isolates division after division. Any thoughts.


4) AGS....It's going to get interesting the next few turns. I have a good Pz force and good position that will probably force THEPROS to reterat and give me a lot of space in AGS; space to play with come blizzard.


Casualties 380,000 for me. 1,950,000 for the Soviets (about 130 killed divisions). Not a good ratio. But this turn I have isolated Soviets in all three army groups for the first time over that last 8 turns. Not great but helps the morale. [:)][:)][:)]

So turn 13... I'm ok ... my grades ??? 1) Finnish D- (I didn't do anything bad, just good play by THEPROS) 2) AGN .. B or B+, still stuff to do, 3) AGC a C or C- (wish I had started to chew on the edge of the Moscow fort network sooner, and 4) AGS could get interesting, maybe a B ??? But the reality is if I'm facing this tuff of a D in the fall '41, I'm not going to do a lot in '42 and the Soviets get stronger and stronger...[X(][X(][X(][X(]



hugh04 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/3/2013 8:12:22 PM)

The best blizzard defense is dead soviets in the fall. Your highest priority at the moment should be destroying soviet manpower. In my most recent game I had to make a decision on turn 13/14. That decision was whether to really try and take moscow. My opponent, who is atleast as good as yours, had a defense between rzchev and kaluga that looks like the one you are facing. My conclusion was that a direct attack was not going to do enough damage so I shifted to widen out the front and go for pockets and taking space that i could give back in blizzard.

You really need to close to the sea of azov in AGS. If you cannot bounce the soviets out of Stalino and pocket alot of troops there while anchoring your flank on the sea, winter will see you pushed back to the southern dnieper. Not neccesarily bad but something to consider. I would consider sending your turn 13 panzer reiforcements here. May be too late to shift power from any extra panzers in the north to stalino. You really need to inflict another 1 million soviet casualties by the end of turn 17. Plan on and carry out a snow offensive as well. I see a slight advantage for the soviets here, but you can make up for it with a good finish to the summer.

vandev



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/3/2013 11:06:12 PM)

A million more casualties ??? Tell that to THEPROS. I've been aggressive from the opening bell (boxing) and haven't been close to landing a real good punch. The German player has to isolate units to get over the 3 mill mark and in my case, there hasn't been a lot of isolation opportunities. My aim is to get to 2.5-2.7 casualties by blizzard and to grab as much space as possible. Your opponent is at least as good as THEPROS ???? Not if you have inflicted as many casualties as you imply.

Playing top-notch opponenets is the best way to learn WITE. THEPROS are a class act (duo, tag team,... no the ODDCOUPLE !!!) and I'm fortunate that they are eager to give insightful advice. How can you not like a guy (Sillyflower) who has such a good eye for female anatomy (those are world class legs and posterior) and attraction for women who have a gusto for stamen (I don't think she's looking for a lost set of Keys). He's a sly fox, isn't he. [;)][;)][;)]






hugh04 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/4/2013 4:17:11 PM)

Thr Pro's seem to be playing a very good strategic game. Massing in front of moscow, stalino and leningrad and very light elsewhere. The axis now has to confront this fact. One thing you have said is that you have not had the opportunity to isolate units. Either because of retreats or very strong line at leningrad. It is cleary hard (impossible) to isolate soviets in any meaningful way if they are willing to retreat 4 or so hexes every turn. However they will fight for leningrad, the approaches to moscow and anywhere they decide too. What you need to try and do is isolate 3 or 4 hexes as you are assualting a prepared line. If the soviet is stacking 3 high, 4 hexes equals 12 divisions and possible 150 thousand men. Forget the grand pocket, go for smaller but dense pockets. This means combining the infantry grinding fight to take one frontline hex with armor advancing doing stacked deliberate attacks into the second line. Infantry and armor working togething (both doing deliberate assualts) can up your casualty count. You must manage your su's to have the needed artillery and engineer's. Its not easy, but it can work. At least work alittle.

vandev



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/4/2013 6:30:35 PM)

I agree with your thoughts, but against THEPROS it doesn't work most of the time. They kill (displace) enveloping units with alacracity (in both senses of the word.) The Mp's needed for Pz units to pass thru 2-3 zones of control (the forts are usually adjacent) leads to only 1-2 units able to complete the isolation. They are adjacent (almost always) to 2 or 3 hexes. THEPROs muster counter attacks from these hexes with 70-80,000 quality troops, including units triggered by Reserve Activation. It's a blood bath with these units routed by 3-1,4-1,5-1 attacks.

On the 6 th or 7 th turn I isolated 2 strong infantry with two motorized div with 93 and 90 morale. They were forced to retreated following a almost 4-1 attack by 5 divisions and the resultant Soviet position was stronger defensively than at the start of the turn !!! No bull. These suckers are good (I've got to be derogatory, it's the only way I can hurt them, and even then they probably relish my insults !!!). The Reserve Activation they have refined is so impressive I've reported them to the authorities for assault and battery. I'm being ignored.

So I've mastered (and I think it has frustrated Sillyflower) tactics to not so exposed them. Even still, two or three turns ago Belphegor (I'm learning how to spell the name, Sean.. your colleague has mercilessly insulted my innocent oversight too many times) displaced two Pz div and their HQ; putting them out of action for two turns.

I agree with the tactic you described vandev, but it produces too much pain; even with it's occasional success.

Now I may be overlooking a better tactic, but I don't think so.

I appreciate your advice. It offers a different perspective.



Peltonx -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/4/2013 7:19:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vandev

Thr Pro's seem to be playing a very good strategic game. Massing in front of moscow, stalino and leningrad and very light elsewhere. The axis now has to confront this fact. One thing you have said is that you have not had the opportunity to isolate units. Either because of retreats or very strong line at leningrad. It is cleary hard (impossible) to isolate soviets in any meaningful way if they are willing to retreat 4 or so hexes every turn. However they will fight for leningrad, the approaches to moscow and anywhere they decide too. What you need to try and do is isolate 3 or 4 hexes as you are assualting a prepared line. If the soviet is stacking 3 high, 4 hexes equals 12 divisions and possible 150 thousand men. Forget the grand pocket, go for smaller but dense pockets. This means combining the infantry grinding fight to take one frontline hex with armor advancing doing stacked deliberate attacks into the second line. Infantry and armor working togething (both doing deliberate assualts) can up your casualty count. You must manage your su's to have the needed artillery and engineer's. Its not easy, but it can work. At least work alittle.

vandev


Sounds sweet and all, but the fact is its very hard to get even small pockets north of Tula. Its simply not going to happen vs good SHC players.

South of Tula sure small pockets is the way its done in 42.



Peltonx -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/4/2013 7:23:55 PM)

quote:

To face the blizzard without the Finnish help in AGN would be a potential disaster. I think that was the key factor in Pelton-MT AAR, for Pelton to retreat so far back in '41 (so far Pelton-MT gets my vote for the 2013 WITE Academy Award for best drama/comedy)


I do miss MT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAk8oMzWLm4



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/4/2013 8:03:23 PM)

So is my surmise, Pelton, partially correct to the rational of your controversial '41 pullback against MT ???

History shows that intense rivalries often become close friendships over time.



hugh04 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/4/2013 10:24:43 PM)

Hitman, I disagree very strongly that german causalties suffered while attacking matter at all in 41. AFV's will be replaced by better ones anyway so it is kinda use them of loss them. Saving Mark 1 and 2 for 43 is not necessary or desirable. Infantry causalties on attack are also easily replaceable, the real problem in the short run is fatigue. I hear your pain about how pockets get reopened. It happens. Every axis in range of attacking should attack every turn. Failure to cause enough damage allows the bear to be created. Beware the bear.

My analysis is that the soviet has been able to concentrate against your sprearheads. Your advance was too narrow and they are too far apart to be mutually supporting. Calling your opponents great may be true but is not a sufficient answer. Where I see error is in the land between the spearheads. There was/is a great opportunity here to cause pain. Flaviusx seems to me to be the most incisive poster on this board. He has spoken of the need to spread the soviet out to create opportunities. Yes concentrate to achieve objectives but you also need to spread out to create the ability to concentrate in an unexpected way. Pelton says it is hard to have success north of the oka. Agreed, but it can happen. I see it in every MT game.

You are at a very important part of the game. You seem to be saying that you cannot do better because your opponents are "the pro's." Remember you lose in your mind before you lose on the board. The pro's are fighting now and not retreating. You can do alot of damage. Failure to attack with a unit is a loss for you. Every unit attacking every turn will inflict alot of casualties. Add some finesse, make small pockets and let him stand and fight and break the pocket. That means he is in range for next turn. The soviet cannot take this pounding if applied wisely. Even if he can take it, he will be weaker then if not pounded. The axis gains nothing by waitiing in summer of 41.

Good luck and keep fighting.

vandev



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEP RO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/4/2013 11:56:45 PM)

No I completely agree with your assessment. My adavance has been far to narrow in all three army groups and too rigid in their focus.. AGN -Leningrad , AGC- Moscow, and AGS- Dnper. That has been my style in the other 6-7 Axis gamed I've played and it has been successful. The true test for game skill and plans are server games and the two I played ( Mazzah and goodgrief) were very convincing wins.

It's better to plan in a style that you understand, (important emphasis on "you") so as you experience good and bad results one is able to make changes in the style of play that personally ( important emphasis on "personally") means something.

In chess I played some "inferior" openings and defenses that I got skilled with and made meaningful "personal" changes over time.

Sillyflower and Belphegor have taken advantage of my style .. somewhat. I'm sure they studied up on what I did in the past and took advantage of my rigid style. The reason I said somewhat is that my AGN strategy led to me easily taking Leningrad (which is not so easy to do against the best players). I think I surprised them with my aggressive assault (I was surprised by their great D.. something I had never seen before) and caused them some consternation. It would be interested to hear Sillyflower's view. I thought if the Volkov wasn't there (if it's and but's were candy and nuts every day would be Christmas.. I know [:D][:D][:D]) the front would have collapsed.

My AGS strategy really means flip (nada) as one runs, runs, runs. Thing are getting interesting at Stalino now because of my concentrated military "fist".

AGC deserves your criticism and the lack of an expanded advance; well you can see for yourself the problem I've created for myself.

But what Pelton says never-the-less is true. Against the best you can only do so much.

I have changed my style and am playing a new game. My advance is much broader and the early results are good.

I fully agree with your criticism of my play. But I had a "feel" for what "I" did and can make changes that make sense to "my" game.

I think what I did at Leningrad stressed THEPROS. I think my aggresiveness have worried them. But they are above me in skill and I'm learning a lot.

More comments..

1) German troop casualties are not easily replaceable and battle defeats drop morale. My average infantry morale is right under 80. I have had fewer losses with my massive attacks and have given THEPROS few opportunities to hit me. I think Sillyflower would compliment me on this aspect of my play. Every division attacks every turn ( (90%) and 1/4 make 2 attacks (deliberate.)

2) Flaviusx is spot on, but what you see with MT's play (a prime example of Flavusx's strategy) and success in receent AAR's is less than stellar Soviet play (IMO) in AGC and at the Dnper. Better Soviet play would make MT look less like a modern day Alexander the Great !!!

3) My play and plans for the remainder will not be passive. Ask Sillyflower if I am aggressive or not. IMO what you recommend is too riskly with casualties and morale loss (back to point one.)

4) I'm not "afraid" of THEPROS and have intentionally put more than a little melodrama in my posts, but these guys are good.

and finally 5) Never-the-less your comments are great. But some are wrong. [:D][:D][:D][:D]








hugh04 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEP RO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/5/2013 12:35:06 AM)

Thanks so much talking about the game. I enjoy the boards as much as actually playing. I don't mean to just critize, I am trying to voice ideas that will improve my play as well as possibly yours. BTW, when I stress attacking, I mean winning. I do not like to launch risky attacks. I only take that risk if I judge it worth it, which is rarely. One thing I do is try and put a lot of my engineers at army group level and then allocate them as needed. Then send them back and allocate again. Very AP intensive. However, that fort level 3 with 3 soviet infantry divisions frequently routs when hit with 6+engineers and a lot of artillery. Su's are the key to axis attacks against forts. Work the system hard to make sure you have them where and when needed. Good luck in your play and take what is given to you and, hopefully, alittle more.

vandev



Peltonx -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEP RO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/5/2013 1:22:12 PM)

Its will be interesating to see how early SHC can exploit the manpower feed back loop(Flaviusx) exploit (Pelton) in this game.

Some are better at it then others.



sillyflower -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/5/2013 11:09:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton



4.5 million men for SHC is sillyness at best.



I have clearly achieved all my objectives [:D]



sillyflower -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/5/2013 11:17:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

How can you not like a guy (Sillyflower)


Very easily.



sillyflower -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/5/2013 11:22:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202


(those are world class legs and posterior)



the real Sillyflower ( my wife) has much better anatomy. She used to be the legs for Pretty Polly tights (famous for their advertising posters in England in the 80s which is why she became my fantasy girl 15+ years before I met her) but transposing her into the picture is beyond me.



sillyflower -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEP RO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/5/2013 11:32:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202


I think what I did at Leningrad stressed THEPROS. I think my aggresiveness have worried them.


Nah. I don't really care about Lgrad as long as it holds for long enough and ties up enough Jerries. What one has to do is to avoid losing many troops in the process which I have done. Leaving 100K in there to die would be silly, but not in a good or witty way.

Not to deprive you of the credit for swift advance up there, though.



sillyflower -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEP RO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/5/2013 11:41:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

More comments..

1) German troop casualties are not easily replaceable and battle defeats drop morale. My average infantry morale is right under 80. I have had fewer losses with my massive attacks and have given THEPROS few opportunities to hit me. I think Sillyflower would compliment me on this aspect of my play. Every division attacks every turn ( (90%) and 1/4 make 2 attacks (deliberate.)

3) My play and plans for the remainder will not be passive. Ask Sillyflower if I am aggressive or not. IMO what you recommend is too riskly with casualties and morale loss (back to point one.)

4) I'm not "afraid" of THEPROS and have intentionally put more than a little melodrama in my posts, but these guys are good.





1 True. C/attack opportunities have been few and far between - but always taken gratefully.

3 You are intelligently aggressive

4 Yes you are. Soviet agent recently captured this scene inside OKH HQ.

[image]local://upfiles/35790/8C623104354245569628B69740AC791F.gif[/image]



sillyflower -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/6/2013 9:28:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vandev

Thr Pro's seem to be playing a very good strategic game. Massing in front of moscow, stalino and leningrad and very light elsewhere. The axis now has to confront this fact. One thing you have said is that you have not had the opportunity to isolate units. Either because of retreats or very strong line at leningrad. It is cleary hard (impossible) to isolate soviets in any meaningful way if they are willing to retreat 4 or so hexes every turn. However they will fight for leningrad, the approaches to moscow and anywhere they decide too. What you need to try and do is isolate 3 or 4 hexes as you are assualting a prepared line. If the soviet is stacking 3 high, 4 hexes equals 12 divisions and possible 150 thousand men. Forget the grand pocket, go for smaller but dense pockets. This means combining the infantry grinding fight to take one frontline hex with armor advancing doing stacked deliberate attacks into the second line. Infantry and armor working togething (both doing deliberate assualts) can up your casualty count. You must manage your su's to have the needed artillery and engineer's. Its not easy, but it can work. At least work alittle.

vandev


It is seldom sensible in 1st summer for Soviets to stack 3 high in the front line for the reason you give. Defence in depth with reserves is better. Then if/when German manages to get a small pocket like he described Russian can easily attack the point units from 3 hexes or sometimes even 4 which means bye bye germans. I'm sure I used a lot more than 5 divs to send his 2 motorised running. I like to pile in with everone not only to get better combat odds but also as it helps morale of my units.

It also helps if you have enough lurking units so you can move attackers back out of reach to refit because they will be tired + disrupted with reduced CV in next German turn. Put fresh units back in harms way. That's what I have been doing to Hitman whenever I have the opportunity. Such opportunities are very few between but the price he pays is reduced tempo and few pocketed Russians.



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/6/2013 5:11:28 PM)

TURN 14 """" TURN 14 """" TURN 14

I am at a point of coming up with a long term plan to defeat the Soviet Army this fall, but some surprising intelligence has been received and is [image][/image]being "closely examined."

[image]local://upfiles/40137/7425FBC1498F4CB6A09494EA9DE0F9DE.jpg[/image]



sillyflower -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/6/2013 10:30:16 PM)

The one on the left is the real SF. The girl on the right' she vaguely remembers called herself 'Hitman' which she always thought was a bit odd. Unfortunately her most famous poster (which all English males between about 45 and 80 seem to remember) is unavailable in electronic form. Trust me I have searched!

[image]local://upfiles/35790/AE1FFC79BEB14E04AA3093AF94E46312.jpg[/image]



Peltonx -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/7/2013 12:41:35 AM)

I am 50 and not ringing a bell. Your sure thats not a guy?



sillyflower -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/7/2013 8:06:51 AM)

It was an English ad. campaign not USofA as far as I know
I have every reason to be confident that my wife is not a ladyman if that is what you are thinking[;)].



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/7/2013 8:26:37 AM)

Nor I the manlady if that's what your thinking.

Sillyflower, in the USofA, our women are more "substantial." (Total inches over 100 ...or 254 cm)



sillyflower -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/7/2013 9:44:22 AM)

I think it's one of the irregular verbs

I am substantial/big boned
you are fat
(s)he is morbidly obese



Baelfiin -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEP RO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (4/9/2013 6:52:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

More comments..

1) German troop casualties are not easily replaceable and battle defeats drop morale. My average infantry morale is right under 80. I have had fewer losses with my massive attacks and have given THEPROS few opportunities to hit me. I think Sillyflower would compliment me on this aspect of my play. Every division attacks every turn ( (90%) and 1/4 make 2 attacks (deliberate.)

3) My play and plans for the remainder will not be passive. Ask Sillyflower if I am aggressive or not. IMO what you recommend is too riskly with casualties and morale loss (back to point one.)

4) I'm not "afraid" of THEPROS and have intentionally put more than a little melodrama in my posts, but these guys are good.





1 True. C/attack opportunities have been few and far between - but always taken gratefully.

3 You are intelligently aggressive

4 Yes you are. Soviet agent recently captured this scene inside OKH HQ.

[image]local://upfiles/35790/8C623104354245569628B69740AC791F.gif[/image]

Hang in there Hitman, you are in for a bumpy ride in the blizzard. But if you persevere you can get some extra nylons...

[image]local://upfiles/20920/CD1E24A9941542FF9D41A822DE778C91.jpg[/image]



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