Zero vs. B-17 (Full Version)

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Knavey -> Zero vs. B-17 (1/1/2003 8:24:49 AM)

Are these typical results in 2.2?

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/21/42

Weather: Overcast

Sub attack at 21,30

Japanese Ships
DD Oite

Allied Ships
SS S-37


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 16,36

Japanese Ships
PG Nikkai Maru, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
SS S-40


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on Buna , at 12,38

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 34

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 9 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 6 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 6 damaged

CPT A.Howard of 435th BS is credited with kill number 3

Airbase hits 3
Runway hits 1

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x B-17E Fortress at 100 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 100 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 100 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 100 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 21,30

Japanese Ships
DD Mochizuki

Allied Ships
SS S-37


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Port Moresby, at 10,40

Airbase hits 7
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 9
Port supply hits 1


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Buna at 12,38

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 27

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 3 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 7 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Asahisan Maru

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x B-17E Fortress at 100 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 100 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Buna at 12,38

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 13

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
PG Seikai Maru

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x B-17E Fortress at 100 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on Buna , at 12,38

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 24

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 2 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 1 destroyed
B-17E Fortress x 2 damaged

Runway hits 1

Attacking Level Bombers:
2 x B-17E Fortress at 100 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Skip the early attack and concentrate on the air vs air. The ratio was 19 zeros lost vs 5 B-17s. According to this, only ONE B-17 was actually shot down in the air. The others were flak, operational losses or whatever. These fighter groups were all fatigue less than 40 and relatively close to the intercept point...less than 10 hexes.

Feinder and I had heard that the new patch was supposed to have caused Zeros to drive off the bombers more effectively (they did this apparently) but the ratio of kills in air to air seems a bit skewed still. 15 to 1 is still a bit atrocious.

Any comments?




denisonh -> (1/1/2003 9:10:23 AM)

Fatigue less than 40?

Anything 30 and over will see higher casualties.


And what is the proportion of Zero losses by category?

And what what the experience level of the Xero pilots?




Knavey -> (1/1/2003 10:31:49 AM)

Fatigue was VERY low actually...probably only one group would have been over 25.

The experience is actually very high on these groups. We are playing Scn 19 and it is only a couple of weeks into the war. The airgroups are relatively unspoiled by replacements on either side.

The odds just seemed a bit skewed to me. The only attack that managed to get one was 8:1 odds. The attack where 9 zeros were shot down also seems a bit high.

I understand the lightly armed argument vs a flying tank, but if they did indeed correct the high loss count against Zeros when flying against B-17s, then prehaps this is a fluke.

I was just wondering if everyone else was seeing a decrease in the number of zeros lost vs. b-17s.

It does appear that they did not do too much damage and were "driven off" as the new patch is supposed to do.

Oh well, off to bed gents...4 am comes early and even though its soon to be a new year, I must work during all the festivities.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!

Knavey




Joel Billings -> (1/1/2003 11:45:45 AM)

Since the B-17's have to travel to their target, a lot of the "operational losses" are actually caused on the way home by the damage to the aircraft. So although the in the air stats may be low, it does sound like the zeroes did cause the death of a few more B-17's. I wasn't involved in the balancing on 2.20, but I know they tried to bring things more in line, and quite a bit of test time went into the changes.

Joel




zed -> (1/1/2003 8:24:34 PM)

I have been playing 2.2 for a while, both as Allies and Japanese, I have not seen those kind of zero losses against b-17s, or any bombers, for that reason. I would go as far to say that fatigue greater than 20 is deadly.




siRkid -> (1/1/2003 10:35:50 PM)

Here is a quote from the book Samurai that is about Saburo Saki the greatest Japanese fighter pilot to survive World War II.

"It was incredible out there today," Tanaka said. "We caught the Fortresses just right, and over and over I pressed home the attacks against the B-17's. At lest twice I caught a bomber perfectly. I could see the bullets hitting and the cannon shells exploding in the airplanes. But they wouldn't go down!"

Tanka looked almost haggard. "These damned bombers are impossible," he spat disgustedly, "when they work into their defensive formations."

He went on to relate how his attack had, however, disrupted the B-17s' bombing run, causing many of the bombs to fall harmlessly into the sea.


Rick




corbulo -> august 2nd (1/1/2003 10:46:58 PM)

Apparently August 2nd over Buna at least 4 B-17s were shot down by 9 reisens from Tainan air group at the loss of 1 zero.
I dont think that can ever happen in 2.2




David Heath -> (1/2/2003 12:25:33 AM)

Yes it can and has but it is rare as it was in the real war.

David




PBYPilot -> Just to reinforce (1/2/2003 1:55:30 AM)

Here's another quote I don't think has been posted before. I did a search on the officers name with no results.

From E. Bergerud's "Fire in the Sky" [pg. 553], quoting Lt Commander Mitsugu Kofukuda, CO IJN 6th Air Group based at Buin during the Solomons Campaign:

"The four engine B-17 and B-24 bombers were, generally speaking, the most dificult enemy aircraft for the Zeros to shoot down. Because of their self sealing fuel tanks, they were extremely difficult to set afire with the Zero's 20mm cannon shells. Our fighter pilots soon learned that the B-17s and B-24s could rarely be destroyed unless the pilots or vital parts of the aircraft were hit and rendered useless. The fierce resistance with which the heavy American bombers opposed our fighters, unlike that of our own land based medium attack bombers which too often fell easy prey to enemy fighters, was a most serious problem. In my opinion, which is shared by many Japanese combat officers, the ability of the B-17 and B-24 and carry out their intended missions despite enemy fighter opposition was a deciding factor in the final outcome of the war."

Even if the mission is raiding an airbase at 100 feet. :rolleyes:

A pretty telling statement, all in all.

PBYPilot
"Slow airplanes and fast women!"




Knavey -> (1/2/2003 3:55:57 AM)

Not going to argue the fact that the B-17 was a flying tank...

I am only curious as to what results everyone is getting POST 2.2 release.

I know about the huge debate prior, but hadn't really seen anything afterwards. I will keep you posted as to the next set of results...when Feinders B-17s show up again. Apparently I did maul them pretty bad if add in the operational losses.

Thanks,




siRkid -> (1/2/2003 4:15:39 AM)

Here is the AAr form th elast air battle I had with B-17s in a PBEM. Version 2.2 Don't forget FOW.


Air attack on Lunga , at 38,40

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 28
A6M3 Zero x 14
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 24
Ki-45 KAIb Nick x 8
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 2

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 13
B-24D Liberator x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 12 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 9 damaged
A6M3 Zero x 6 destroyed
A6M3 Zero x 4 damaged
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 12 destroyed
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 5 damaged
Ki-45 KAIb Nick x 2 destroyed
Ki-45 KAIb Nick x 6 damaged
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 1 destroyed
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 1 damaged
Ki-48 Lily x 3 destroyed
Ki-48 Lily x 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 4 destroyed
B-17E Fortress x 10 damaged
B-24D Liberator x 1 destroyed
B-24D Liberator x 25 damaged

1LT E.Porter of 30th BS is credited with kill number 6

CPT S.Howard of 394th BS is KILLED

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 51

Airbase hits 4
Runway hits 13




XPav -> (1/2/2003 5:24:25 AM)

How many B-17s and B-24s suffered operational losses?




siRkid -> (1/2/2003 5:34:46 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by XPav
[B]How many B-17s and B-24s suffered operational losses? [/B][/QUOTE]

Too late to tell.

Rick




OG_Gleep -> (1/2/2003 5:55:44 AM)

What's with the Ghost planes? A bunch of times I have seen the overall count of planes destroyed or damaged exceeding the planes participating in the combat.

Two examples of this:

1. Over PM they sent a massive attack on my CV TF docked there, two types of planes participating on my side were Wirraways and P39. There was only a handful of each, most of the Fighters on my side were F4F's. Anyhow, the Zero's made short work of the Wirraways and P39's, and destroyed all of them. Halfway through the battle, these two groups start killing again. The Wirraways damaged 4, and the P39's got 6 kills (I think against Val's).

2. Total Planes damaged and destroyed exceeds the amount participating, like in the example above.

I can understand the numbers not matching for the Jap's, but your own numbers being off?




OG_Gleep -> (1/2/2003 5:56:55 AM)

Also, how do you guys Copy N paste the AAR's?




SoulBlazer -> (1/2/2003 5:59:24 AM)

Hits are reported if the plane is damaged more then once. Hence, you have more planes damaged then actually flew in many cases. It just increases the chance the planes are not going to make it home (often true for the level bombers).




siRkid -> (1/2/2003 6:04:17 AM)

Both players see the same combat report so the FOW is applied to both sides even palying AI. It would not be worth the programing effort to make Human vs. AI diffrent.

Rick




Knavey -> (1/2/2003 6:45:34 AM)

I also believe that if you damage a plane and also shoot it down, it counts it in each category. But, I may be wrong there.

That AAR appears to show the losses are still pretty high for the fighters vs. the B-17s.

Any other takers on a recent bombing raid AAR?




Feinder -> (1/2/2003 7:03:28 AM)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on Buna , at 12,38

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 196

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 142 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 54 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 1 damaged

PO Gucci Kamichawa is shot down and KILLED.
PO Toni Makizuwu is shot down and KILLED.
PO Saki Kamikaze is shot down and KILLED.
PO Sushi Fubuki is shot down and KILLED.
PO Oite Robimu is shot down and KILLED.
PO Hamu Bukufawa is shot down and KILLED.
FO Pani Panjami is shot down and KILLED.
FO Sashimi Secki is shot down and KILLED.
FO Nagigawa Pungawi is shot down and KILLED.
CPT A.Howard of 1337th BS is credited with kill number 125.

Airbase hits 6
Runway hits 12

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x B-17E Fortress at 100 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your pilots SUCK Knavey!

Hurry up and make your turn, I've got some 1000 lb. lovin' for Yamato!

:^P
-F-




tanjman -> combatreport.txt (1/2/2003 8:18:16 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by OG_Gleep
[B]Also, how do you guys Copy N paste the AAR's? [/B][/QUOTE]

The file combatreport.txt is located in the UV\Save folder and can be opened with any text editor such as MS Notepad. Be aware that the file gets overwriten every turn there is combat. I (most players as well from what I can tell) alt-tab after ever turn and copy the file to another folder (named after the scenario I'm playing) and rename it DDMMMYY AAR.txt for future reference.




Knavey -> (1/2/2003 10:02:51 AM)

Here is the AAR that just made Feinders heart stop temporarily. We were on the phone and I was telling him the results of the combat as it occurred (since the 001 file replay is bugged...see other post) and I think he almost DIED. So did I for that matter. But of course, it all turned out OK for him in the end.

Bah!

You will see it in the close to Port Moresby combat that occurs. I sure wish it had gone the other way.

Oh well,

BITE ME FEINDER!!!!

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/29/42

Weather: Rain

Air attack on TF at 13,34


Allied aircraft
Beaufort x 9
P-400 Airacobra x 3
P-39D Airacobra x 11
P-40E Kittyhawk x 3


Allied aircraft losses
Beaufort x 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Atlantic Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Batavia Maru, Shell hits 4, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Akashisan Maru, Shell hits 12, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Hakuyo Maru

Attacking Level Bombers:
4 x Beaufort at 100 feet
4 x Beaufort at 100 feet
1 x Beaufort at 100 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Lae at 9,33

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 7

Allied aircraft
Hudson x 15

no losses

Allied aircraft losses
Hudson x 1 destroyed
Hudson x 7 damaged

PO1 S. Yamashita of F1/Tainan Daitai is credited with kill number 3

Japanese Ships
AP Yamakuni Maru
AP Nana Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Attacking Level Bombers:
4 x Hudson at 100 feet
2 x Hudson at 100 feet
4 x Hudson at 100 feet
4 x Hudson at 100 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 13,34


Allied aircraft
Beaufort x 12
P-39D Airacobra x 20


Allied aircraft losses
Beaufort x 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Batavia Maru, on fire
AP Boston Maru, Shell hits 12, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Hakuyo Maru
AP Akashisan Maru, on fire
AP Atlantic Maru, on fire

Attacking Level Bombers:
4 x Beaufort at 100 feet
4 x Beaufort at 100 feet
1 x Beaufort at 100 feet
3 x Beaufort at 100 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 21,30

Japanese Ships
DD Yayoi, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
SS S-47


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Port Moresby at 10,40

Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu
CA Myoko
CL Tenryu
DD Asagumo, Shell hits 4, on fire
DD Shiratsuyu, Shell hits 1
DD Shigure
DD Yugure

Allied Ships
CV Hornet
DD Perkins, Shell hits 21, on fire, heavy damage
DD Worden
DD Arunta, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
DD Warramunga


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Port Moresby at 10,40

Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu, Shell hits 3
CA Myoko, Shell hits 4
CL Tenryu, Shell hits 1
DD Asagumo, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Shiratsuyu, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Shigure, Shell hits 1
DD Yugure, Shell hits 20, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
CV Lexington
CV Yorktown
CA Portland
CA Chester, Shell hits 3, on fire
CA New Orleans, Shell hits 1, on fire
CA Astoria, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CA Minneapolis
DD Sims
DD Anderson
DD Hammann
DD Russell
DD Morris
DD Phelps
DD Dewey
DD Monaghan
DD Alwin


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Lae at 9,33

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 7

Allied aircraft
Hudson x 8

no losses

Allied aircraft losses
Hudson x 1 destroyed
Hudson x 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Mikage Maru #20
AP Kenshin Maru
AP Keisho Maru

Attacking Level Bombers:
2 x Hudson at 100 feet
1 x Hudson at 100 feet
4 x Hudson at 100 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 11,32


Allied aircraft
Beaufort x 4


Allied aircraft losses
Beaufort x 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Oigawa Maru

Attacking Level Bombers:
4 x Beaufort at 100 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 13,34


Allied aircraft
SBD Dauntless x 84
Beaufort x 2
P-39D Airacobra x 17


no losses

Japanese Ships
PC Ch 16, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Hakuyo Maru, Shell hits 32, Bomb hits 8, on fire, heavy damage
PC Ch 18, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AP Atlantic Maru, Shell hits 8, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
PC Ch 6, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
PC Ch 17, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage

Attacking Level Bombers:
2 x Beaufort at 100 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Lae at 9,33

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 7

Allied aircraft
Hudson x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Hudson x 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Kenshin Maru

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x Hudson at 100 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




johnbruning -> (1/2/2003 1:09:50 PM)

Here is a quote from the book Samurai that is about Saburo Saki the greatest Japanese fighter pilot to survive World War II.

"It was incredible out there today," Tanaka said. "We caught the Fortresses just right, and over and over I pressed home the attacks against the B-17's. At lest twice I caught a bomber perfectly. I could see the bullets hitting and the cannon shells exploding in the airplanes. But they wouldn't go down!"

Tanka looked almost haggard. "These damned bombers are impossible," he spat disgustedly, "when they work into their defensive formations."

He went on to relate how his attack had, however, disrupted the B-17s' bombing run, causing many of the bombs to fall harmlessly into the sea.


Rick

----------
Rick,

Samauri is a very suspect book, so be careful when you use it. It was not a direct translation from Saburo Sakai's original Japanese manuscript. Instead, Fred Saito took notes from it for Martin Caidin, who then flushed out the notes as he saw fit. Much of what is in Samauri is complete fiction, spawned from Caidin's imagination. Best see Henry Sakaida's book "Winged Samauri" for details on this, but whole sections of Samauri were concocted by Caidin--including Sakai's last flight in 1945.

That said, B-17s were very, very tough for the JNAF and JAAF to bring down. Those men from the 19th Bomb Group I've interviewed over the years have described some miraculous escapes from dozens of Zeroes. One need only read Jay Zeamer's Medal of Honor citation to realize just how rugged the B-17 was. Conversely, the Zero's fragility ensured it would not stand up to the concentrated fire of a formation of Flying Forts.

The JAAF was way, way worse off. Can you imagine attacking a formation of B-17s in a Ki-43? Twin machine guns are all you've got, and you're in a plane with no armor, no self-sealing tanks, and one that at altitude didn't have much of a speed advantage over the B-17. Essentially, those guys were screwed.

One other thing about Sakai: The men in the Zero Fighter Pilot's Association--The Unabaraki--really didn't like him. He was pretty much a pariah due to his highly controversial writings in Japan. The other vets thought he was out of line and ostracized him.


Regards,

John Bruning




Howard Mitchell -> (1/2/2003 8:36:19 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kid
[B]Both players see the same combat report so the FOW is applied to both sides even palying AI. It would not be worth the programing effort to make Human vs. AI diffrent.

Rick [/B][/QUOTE]

errr... yes it would, pretty please!

Not to bothered about this in UV, but for WITP with far more air units trying to figure out what actually happened to your own forces after a battle could be very time consuming.




siRkid -> (1/2/2003 11:37:54 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by johnbruning
[B]Samauri is a very suspect book, so be careful when you use it. It was not a direct translation from Saburo Sakai's original Japanese manuscript. Instead, Fred Saito took notes from it for Martin Caidin, who then flushed out the notes as he saw fit. Much of what is in Samauri is complete fiction, spawned from Caidin's imagination. Best see Henry Sakaida's book "Winged Samauri" for details on this, but whole sections of Samauri were concocted by Caidin--including Sakai's last flight in 1945.

Regards,

John Bruning [/B][/QUOTE]

I find this very sad news for I really enjoyed the book. :(

Rick




corbulo -> (1/2/2003 11:54:30 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by johnbruning
[B]Samauri is a very suspect book, so be careful when you use it. [/B][/QUOTE]

Where can one purchase an exact translation of what Sakai said?




johnbruning -> (1/3/2003 10:52:46 AM)

Unfortunately, there is no direct translation of any of Sakai's books. The best one available is the Sakai biography written by Henry Sakaida. "Winged Samauri" debunks much of the the things Caidin made up in "Samauri."

JohnB




Feinder -> (1/3/2003 11:52:05 AM)

FWIW -

I sent two attacks by lonely B-17 squadrons again today. The results were quite plausable.

Both cases, there were about 15 B-17s (at 100', he has no flak unit there) intercepted by LRCAP of 5 - 7 Zeros.

The text file showed one Zero damaged in each engagement.

My B-17s were fully rested, but would have had higer fatigue on the 2nd strike (we're playing 2-day turns). But 1 Zero damaged (later confirmed destroyed on Intel), seems very reasonable to me.

And FWIW, I had 4 B-17 damaged. Altho not reflected in the txt file, they were probably operational damages due to the fact that 2 days worth of bombing missions from Cairns to Buna will rack up about 45 fatigue.

Knavey, may your guys in Buna starve to death until the Austrailan 3rd Division rolls over them.
-F-




zed -> (1/3/2003 10:46:31 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by johnbruning
[B]Unfortunately, there is no direct translation of any of Sakai's books. The best one available is the Sakai biography written by Henry Sakaida. "Winged Samauri" debunks much of the the things Caidin made up in "Samauri."

JohnB [/B][/QUOTE]

Unfortunately it is out of print. I will try some neighborhood libraries. I suspected the ending was fictitious for a long time, because his wife-to-be 1st cousin was almost ready to commit hari-kari when Sakai walks in the door to announce he is safe.




johnbruning -> Sakai (1/4/2003 1:00:30 AM)

I'm not sure about the suicide thing, but as I recall, Caidin has Sakai fly his last combat mission against B-29s. In reality, his last fight took place in daylight against a B-32 Dominator. Incidentally, I was at the National Archives a while back and stumbled across a whole bunch of color film of B-32 Dominators in the Philippines right at the end of the war. Pretty amazing stuff!

I don't know if this is true, but I've been interviewing a veteran who met Sakai numerous times in the States during various ace-related functions. He related to me that Sakai, in a sober moment, mentioned to him that his first wife starved to death during the war. He said his wife was so dedicated to the war effort that she just stopped eating so others could have her rations when the food shortages became so severe. At the same time, she worked herself ragged in a factory. Like I said, I don't know if that's true, but if it is, it would go a long way to explaining much of Sakai's post-war bitterness.

Johnb

PS: Try Powells.com for a copy of Winged Samauri. They usually have it. Powells is one of the largest used bookstores on the West Coast. It takes up an entire city block in Portland, Oregon.




Attack Condor -> (1/4/2003 1:46:04 PM)

I've been reading "Flying Forts" and I'll say one thing about Caidin, the man never met an adjective he didn't like ...

Another nice thing about this forum, in addition to the game advice, etc. is the wealth of information available from resources I hardly knew existed :)




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