RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (Full Version)

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lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 4:29:34 AM)

the following events I have imported to this are as follows: all these events were programmed by ernie and so thanks are once again given.

manpower event
event where regimes wakeup when attacked



Twotribes -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 4:44:18 AM)

You are aware that the Soviets delivered to the Communist Chinese the arms ammunition and materials they got from 700000 Japanese troops that surrendered to them? Stalin agreed not to provide arms to the Communists so instead delivered all the captured materials.

The US withdrew all support for Chang Ki Shek in 46 due to his refusal to allow the Communists to share in his Government and this was not changed until late 48 when Marshal toured China and realized just how stupid the US had been.



samurai023 -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 4:49:20 AM)

The formation of irregular forces could be regiment, brigade or division, I think.

I found a summary of weapons in Nov 1947 from a Chinese forum. The poster claimed the data was from History of the Liberation War (Civil War), Volume 3, page 241-242. Take Manchuria as an example,
Northeast Field Army，Rifle or pistol 132507，Machine gun 13007，Gun 1968，grenade discharger 2010，Tank 32.
Northeast Military District Troop，Rifle or pistol 132304，Machine gun 3789，Gun 306(?)，grenade discharger 1113.
Compared with
Northwest Field Army，Rifle or pistol 19608，Machine gun 1626，Gun 300，grenade discharger 236。
If these are correct, the irregular force in Manchuria was really strong.


Among those troops sent to Manchuria, only 10,000 are from areas close to Yen'an. So most of those troops were not supposed to defend Yen'an.



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 4:55:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

You are aware that the Soviets delivered to the Communist Chinese the arms ammunition and materials they got from 700000 Japanese troops that surrendered to them? Stalin agreed not to provide arms to the Communists so instead delivered all the captured materials.

The US withdrew all support for Chang Ki Shek in 46 due to his refusal to allow the Communists to share in his Government and this was not changed until late 48 when Marshal toured China and realized just how stupid the US had been.


yea, I was aware but do not know of anyway to do it this way. I think the level 1 light tank picture I used is of a Japanese tank and the light gun level 1 is a picture of KMT troops with a Japanese infantry gun. I was thinking about increasing PP costs for certain items to twice their current cost as a way to simulate this. Level 3 infantry and other items show us equipment. That said, I do like doing hypothetical into these conflicts as a what if sort of thing.

I also did read where the Warlords did side either with the Nationalist Government or the CPC. I think I would have to add another regime to the list and that regime would then be a warlord faction, but it may be doable.



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 5:37:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

You are aware that the Soviets delivered to the Communist Chinese the arms ammunition and materials they got from 700000 Japanese troops that surrendered to them? Stalin agreed not to provide arms to the Communists so instead delivered all the captured materials.

The US withdrew all support for Chang Ki Shek in 46 due to his refusal to allow the Communists to share in his Government and this was not changed until late 48 when Marshal toured China and realized just how stupid the US had been.


you are also correct, America dropped the ball big time in my opinion in regards to the Chinese civil war. We should have been supporting the KMT from the get go, with not only economic aid but military aid as well instead of doing as we did. My opinion, if China had not have fallen to the communists then the Korean war or maybe even the Vietnam war may not have happened, and maybe North Korea would be unified now under the South.



samurai023 -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 4:36:38 PM)

Just curious about how you determine the movement capacity of PLA. Although they barely had trucks, especially in the early period of the war, they were very good at marching by foot. And more importantly, they did not rely on well-constructed road. Perhaps you would like to lower the off-road movement penalty for the CPC side.

As far as I know, PLA usually chose narrow meandering footpath for concealment purpose. Consequently, one of their best tactics was to sneak into enemy's defense area then launched attack from the rear or flank areas of enemy. While most non-elite KMT troops, on the other hand, had very low moral and were very likely to flee in such situation. I am not familiar with Advanced Tactics Series, so I am wondering whether is it possible to stimulate such effect?



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 4:44:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: samurai023

Just curious about how you determine the movement capacity of PLA. Although they barely had trucks, especially in the early period of the war, they were very good at marching by foot. And more importantly, they did not rely on well-constructed road. Perhaps you would like to lower the off-road movement penalty for the CPC side.

As far as I know, PLA usually chose narrow meandering footpath for concealment purpose. Consequently, one of their best tactics was to sneak into enemy's defense area then launched attack from the rear or flank areas of enemy. While most non-elite KMT troops, on the other hand, had very low moral and were very likely to flee in such situation. I am not familiar with Advanced Tactics Series, so I am wondering whether is it possible to stimulate such effect?


I think what your asking can be done in regards to non elite KMT troops running via event programming, and use it with level 1 units. As for the Movement factor for the Communist side, I don't know unless a whole new movement factor is made just for them. I will have to ask ernie and see what he says and if this can be done. I appreciate your help with this, very much. thanks




samurai023 -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 7:00:25 PM)

You are welcome. I am a Chinese and am very happy to be helpful if someone wants to know about the war in this theater.

About air force, I did a little research on that. What I found is that in 1946, an aviation academy was founded in Manchuria with the help of some Japanese pilots. But People's Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force was formally founded on Nov 11 1949. So I believe that PLA did not have active air force before the war was ending. They may obtain some fighters or bombers after the "three decisive campaigns". But after that, there was no need to use air force to defeat KMT. However, PLA did have some anti-air regiments.

As for the KMT part. Since PLA did not have air force, the only use of KMT's fighters was firing with their machine guns in the air. Moreover, due to the lack of experienced higher order military officers, bombers were not as effective as they were supposed to be. So unlike other main theaters around the world, air forces played an extremely limited role in the Chinese Civil War.



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 7:16:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: samurai023

You are welcome. I am a Chinese and am very happy to be helpful if someone wants to know about the war in this theater.

About air force, I did a little research on that. What I found is that in 1946, an aviation academy was founded in Manchuria with the help of some Japanese pilots. But People's Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force was formally founded on Nov 11 1949. So I believe that PLA did not have active air force before the war was ending. They may obtain some fighters or bombers after the "three decisive campaigns". But after that, there was no need to use air force to defeat KMT. However, PLA did have some anti-air regiments.

As for the KMT part. Since PLA did not have air force, the only use of KMT's fighters was firing with their machine guns in the air. Moreover, due to the lack of experienced higher order military officers, bombers were not as effective as they were supposed to be. So unlike other main theaters around the world, air forces played an extremely limited role in the Chinese Civil War.


thanks for the information, very much appreciated it. i was curious about the airforce for the PLA, as a article I read had said that the Soviets did fly for the CPC during the civil war in a volunteer status, that the Communists did not have any pilots at this time. We'll guess I will have to delete the 2 air units of Soviet volunteers then.

I love history and this part of history has always been one of my favorite study areas, just have not been able to learn a lot about it. Have read a few books here and there, but would love to delve deeper into this as I find it fascinating.



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 7:18:02 PM)

CPC Southern Front. Consists of 2 Columns (Corps) each with 3 Infantry Divisions and 1 Brigade. I also added several CPC Irregular Brigades, which represent Communist Guerrillas

[image]local://upfiles/23616/CC913CB8DEB440CB839F5F28D6655C8A.jpg[/image]



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 7:22:33 PM)

Screenshot is of the Manchurian front with 3 Columns (Corps) each with 3 Infantry Divisions and 1 Brigade. Also in this area have added several CPC Irregular Brigades as well.

[image]local://upfiles/23616/322817A5269F41268FF0A74A2D23CDF8.jpg[/image]



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 7:23:35 PM)

Screenshot of British Malaysia


[image]local://upfiles/23616/4D118B257FB543A48BDE2EC6DBDBFD69.jpg[/image]



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 7:24:54 PM)

India's positions at beginning of scenario

[image]local://upfiles/23616/587C7D6CB9B947AABC8883FB7D752309.jpg[/image]



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 7:25:53 PM)

Screenshot of Indian positions again

[image]local://upfiles/23616/1064F3B1DF104BAFB42D8D2735FD252D.jpg[/image]



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 7:27:38 PM)

Screenshot of Indian capital. The Corps for India, Malaysia and Dutch East Indies will have French, Dutch and English people groups for level 1 Staff.

[image]local://upfiles/23616/628C3E88897343A293D29F1E24D9852F.jpg[/image]



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/3/2013 7:36:54 PM)

ok, now that we are on the right track with the CPC OOB, and almost finished placing the Communist units, on to begin the hunt for the Soviet OOB and their placement onto the map.



Twotribes -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/4/2013 4:25:16 AM)

Lion have you uploaded any scenarios to the bank?



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/4/2013 4:26:54 AM)

The map for this was made from a map I have from TOAW III, which also had the U.S. west coast. I'm thinking of adding the U.S. west coast onto here, just so the U.S. can have a supply base and produce men & material. I did add Japan and the Dutch East Indies, Philippines, British Malaysia but do not see anyway for them to ever be activated, but they are there non the less.

I still have not decided whether or not to keep the Soviet regime awake or make it asleep as well, anyone have any thoughts on this, please let me know and give me a reason why I should keep them as active instead of asleep. Also thinking about the Malaysia flag and thinking it was not their flag during this time period so this maybe changing as well.



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/4/2013 4:47:06 AM)

just realized that the current Malayan flag I'm using was not until after their independence from Great Britain. so now will make a new flag and call them the " Malayan Union". How many regimes are we able to have, I sort of remembering Vic saying we can have as many as we want. So I'm thinking of adding more regimes, but they will be asleep such as Indonesia and so fourth. This though with the exception of the new Malayan flag is just me thinking out loud. I do not want to deviate too far from the attended goal of this scenario. Suggestions, thoughts appreciated



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/4/2013 4:52:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Lion have you uploaded any scenarios to the bank?


Yes, my Soccer war remake is there. I actually need to update it though and add in the event which will awaken a regime after they are attacked. right now I think they are all active. I'm planning on adding my Korean war 1950 scenario soon and I have one more that I have been working with ernie on regarding a " Hungarian-Romanian" war scenario, but it isn't ready though.



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/4/2013 9:27:19 PM)

Updated screenshot of Malaysia. Now has pre- Independence flag and is called " Malayan Union"

[image]local://upfiles/23616/A43D6CC1F74443298C279DC17154743E.jpg[/image]



ernieschwitz -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/4/2013 9:54:15 PM)

Vic has said that as long as you keep it below 10 regimes, you won´t get memory problems...



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/6/2013 7:04:45 AM)

Screenshot of Soviet setup

[image]local://upfiles/23616/5CFE2C0002A947E7B4EB4C329E6A3FED.jpg[/image]



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/6/2013 7:05:34 AM)

Screenshot 2 of Soviet setup

[image]local://upfiles/23616/909D69DE0C1F43F5A70C0426F66B0608.jpg[/image]



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/6/2013 7:08:16 AM)

Screenshot of U.S.West coast- I have added the west coast of the U.S., but decided to leave off Alaska. The map of updated portion was done this way for purposes of moving air units to bases in Japan and the Philippines. I have also added Mountain Infantry to SFT setup. Also added Hawaii, which is not in the screenshot

[image]local://upfiles/23616/35E566967F6440EBBD2354F6165EDBAA.jpg[/image]



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/6/2013 7:09:24 AM)

Screenshot 2 Southern U.S. West Coast

[image]local://upfiles/23616/EE5164DDF6B24B5093076A7952186AE6.jpg[/image]



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/6/2013 7:10:45 AM)

Screenshot 3, Northern U.S. West Coast

[image]local://upfiles/23616/4825A93D15A448C7860C1931C0ECCCDD.jpg[/image]



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/7/2013 2:20:03 AM)

I have added Indonesia and made them at war with the Netherlands, which represent the Dutch-Indonesian civil war that was playing out at the same time. Also going to add Vietnam, but they will remain asleep. Vietnam will be allied with Communist China & Soviet Union but not active. The only way Vietnam can be activated, is if they are attacked and this will not happen until Indochina is defeated and territory given to Vietnam. Idea's thoughts are appreciated



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/7/2013 4:21:54 AM)

Quick Question- when a regime started the game asleep but was awakened due to being declared war on, when and if this regime surrenders ( goes back to sleep) can you re declare war on it, if say the regime in question is given land back by their ally. So say if Indonesia is defeated by the Dutch and they surrender, then does Indonesia say if Communist China retakes back Indonesia and gives land back too them in other words.



lion_of_judah -> RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49 (5/7/2013 5:47:46 AM)

Ok, here I go again. I'm adding Thailand to the mix, they will of course be asleep this will reduce Indo-China and add another regime. Vietnam will not have territory unless given too them by Communist China, Thailand will be neutral, Indonesia will be active ( probably not long as the Dutch will more than likely win)and this should be it. The main focus is still the civil war in China, but I'm thinking these other regimes may make it interesting if they ever become active.

Thailand, Vietnam and Indochina will have the same people group " Indo-Chinese" which actually they are. This could be a very long scenario if this is done right. Input people, input :)



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