Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (Full Version)

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Philo -> Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/1/2013 10:41:07 AM)

I have Distant Worlds+Shakturi+Legends expansions. I very quickly stopped playing them because of the games strategic layer coming nonexistent due to having hundreds of thousands in cash all the time. Being able to rush buy all science, build anything I want etc.

This has already been discussed in a different thread. I'm hoping Shadows has done something about this or otherwise I won't bother with it. I like the game design but not having to worry about the budget in a strategy game was what totally and utterly ruined the game for me.

Is there a big improvement to this in Shadows?



Buio -> RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/1/2013 11:22:02 AM)

Yes. Economy is much harder to manage. Build up fleet and troops to attack that neighbor and you will be in red. Might change when you hit some sort of breakpoint later on, but I've played a fairly long time and not gotten huge amounts of money.



Mozo -> RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/1/2013 2:31:59 PM)

Absolutely.



t1it -> RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/1/2013 2:37:43 PM)

Yes indeed. Population growth in new colonies is now slower (due to 0 tax) and resource abundance is no more AND difficulty scales the closer you are to victory! Oh add the scumbag pirates, and the clearly improved AI fleet & war management, I'd say this game is now of the most the most challenging 4x out there.



CyclopsSlayer -> RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/1/2013 2:39:41 PM)

Things like the Trade Bazaar, and maintenance reductions used to be cute but more fluff than needed, are instead now Vital to maintaining a healthy cash flow.



Numdydar -> RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/1/2013 4:14:10 PM)

Totally agree with the above [:)] I tried playing the same way I did in Legends and lost horriblily on Normal no less. Next game definately had to do a lot more planning and even then never had a lot of money. Plus I had resourse shorages constantly crop up through the game, especially near the end. Again this was on Normal and Pirates set to one nothch below Normal. Heaven help you if you bump them up past Normal lol.



Buio -> RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/1/2013 5:00:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
Again this was on Normal and Pirates set to one nothch below Normal. Heaven help you if you bump them up past Normal lol.

I too find it fairly though on normal. I am not even at upper half of victory score list in my game. But for me, fun to play anyway. :)



WoodMan -> RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/1/2013 5:14:57 PM)

I like the new economy too, I've still managed to get a very healthy amount of cash going, but not as well as in Legends. One thing I'd like to point out: PLANETARY DEFENCE UNITS COST A LOT TO MAINTAIN! Found that out the hard way, do not, repeat: DO NOT replace all defending troops with Planetary Defence units once you research them [sm=00000007.gif]



jpwrunyan -> RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/2/2013 4:46:45 AM)

@Philo

I would wait and see where Ashbury76 weighs in on this.



BigWolfChris -> RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/2/2013 3:56:58 PM)

Ermm... other than more shortages (ie. resources are indeed less plentiful at the beginning and for new colonies later on), I'm seeing very little difference in the economy as of yet



Erik Rutins -> RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/2/2013 4:22:08 PM)

Might be helpful if you note settings and species/government combo. I can confirm that from the design side, the economy in Shadows is much tighter and expansion more measured.



Philo -> RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/2/2013 5:54:57 PM)

Still waiting to hear more peoples opinions before purchasing this expansion.

Good to hear from Erik though that the design was to make economy tighter. It was absolutely needed.



adecoy95 -> RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/2/2013 10:23:58 PM)

i have been trying different races than i normally play (normally i play exclusively securian), so its hard for me to say for sure, but in one of my recent games, i bought over 200 destroyers at once (only my homeworld is profitable currently) and i did not seem to really dent my economy, i think this race has a modifier for that tho

overall its hard to judge for me if the economy is better, there are defiantly a lot of things that are going to affect your economy tho, the pirates really feel like pirates now, and you are going to feel like wanting to hunt them down, which is great.

are there really more resource shortages now? maby my game types are too balanced in favor of having more resources available because i have never ran into any serious shortages, except fuel or steel since i play on deserts mostly, and they don't last long

oh i shouldent understate how effective pirates are at slowing you down, in a recent game they have managed to steal a dozen of my colony ships.

currently playing on hard with ramped difficulty and the ai are doing pretty good compaired to me, i will make a better review after i play more



Philo -> RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/2/2013 10:52:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: adecoy95
i have been trying different races than i normally play (normally i play exclusively securian), so its hard for me to say for sure, but in one of my recent games, i bought over 200 destroyers at once (only my homeworld is profitable currently) and i did not seem to really dent my economy, i think this race has a modifier for that tho

200 Destroyers?? If that doesn't slow your economy down then I dunno what. Are you still able to rush buy tech all the time now?



adecoy95 -> RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/2/2013 10:57:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Philo



200 Destroyers?? If that doesn't slow your economy down then I dunno what. Are you still able to rush buy tech all the time now?


well, they did not live very long, i threw them against the pirates in waves to destroy a base that was really close by, i only have about 50 destroyers now, ill try to make a better review in the future, cant rush tech all the time, but i still manage to sneak it in there when i need it without any problems

also, btw, pirate bases explode [:'(]

ALSO they are custom destroyers so they are not as big its basically just a fighter bay with ion cannons (playing around with things this game)

if your concerned about economy, i would consider a purchase, this is the first game in a while i have played were i did not have more strategic and gdp than almost everyone else in the galaxy combined, but i cant be sure its not because of a different race



necaradan666 -> RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/3/2013 2:21:54 AM)

Modifiers make a big difference imo. One game I played a race with a maintenance penalty and didn't manage to build the marketplace wonder, I couldn't afford to field three fleets at once, nevermind the huge cost of having more than a few troops in the entire empire. I had to quit because I had no chance of defending against pirates well enough to expand anywhere, then the other empires came over and gg...

Next game I could make vast stacks of ships and troops right off the bat. I was amazed at how easily I was able to both defend my worlds and attack others at the same time, the only change was playing a race with no maint penalty and building that wonder first, I did everything else pretty much the same down to starbase placement and research priority



Tanaka -> RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/3/2013 2:42:11 AM)

Still wish we could have some sort of economy slider [:(]



FerretStyle -> RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/3/2013 3:05:44 AM)

My experience is that economy is tight be manageable, and I'm not necessarily swimming in cash until I'm very well developed with 10+ colonies being heavily taxed (just at the brink of 100% compliance).

I've been playing on Normal difficulty, Zenox/Technocracy and keeping good relations (early wars destroy the economy because it's impossible to afford the ships and troops needed to stay afloat) as well as rushing the Medical / Entertainment techs because it helps to keep colonies more happy and therefore to raise taxes higher.

It definitely feels like money is something that needs to be thought about these days.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/3/2013 3:19:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
Still wish we could have some sort of economy slider [:(]


The Difficulty Slider does that for you now as well - also the Corruption Slider and the quality of your starting Homeworld system. The prevalence of colonizable planets also. There are a lot of ways to make the game more challenging economically, but the default Shadows economy is significantly tighter than Legends for the mid to late game in my experience (and intended to be so by design). There are still species/government combinations that are designed to have more money, but in general we also rebalanced the species bonuses and government modifiers so the extremes are a bit moderated.

Regards,

- Erik



Tanaka -> RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/3/2013 3:47:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
Still wish we could have some sort of economy slider [:(]


The Difficulty Slider does that for you now as well - also the Corruption Slider and the quality of your starting Homeworld system. The prevalence of colonizable planets also. There are a lot of ways to make the game more challenging economically, but the default Shadows economy is significantly tighter than Legends for the mid to late game in my experience (and intended to be so by design). There are still species/government combinations that are designed to have more money, but in general we also rebalanced the species bonuses and government modifiers so the extremes are a bit moderated.

Regards,

- Erik



Hi Erik thanks for the reply. Yes I am aware of this but I always play on normal in all my games as I don't like AI cheats and player disadvantages. I am looking for something that scales the economy for all players without any AI cheats or player disadvantages. I play on normal difficulty, normal corruption, and few colonizable worlds which yes helps. I give myself and all AI harsh homeworlds and that helps some too. But I would like the option for homeworld type and cheaper economy be separate. I am a turtler and I love a game where every ship matters and every cent spent is important. I hate playing games where there are a million units and a million dollars to spend. I play with 9999 research time and wish exploration range could still be toned down more in later stages for the same reasons so that exploration is slow and meaningful.



Antiscamp -> RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/3/2013 8:29:25 AM)

I find the economy a lot more challenging now. I'm in the red most of the time. [:D]



bvoid -> RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/3/2013 8:51:51 AM)

As a pirate you can easily get piles of cash by capturing the starport above empire homeworlds. See pirate feedback thread :)



Zangi -> RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/3/2013 1:15:12 PM)

Throw in a Wonder with its +50% development... and your income goes up by double or some such.

Also, playing on Excellent homeworld really helps with income...
Securan/Excellent Homeworld/Any Gov't/Normal = Scrooge McDuck's money bin



Kruos -> RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/3/2013 1:44:49 PM)

Yeah, from my experiences, wonders can really make you swim in money. The development bonuses they give are really powerful. Maybe too much?



Bingeling -> RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/3/2013 3:16:56 PM)

Wonders have always been a bad idea the way they were implemented. I never liked neither them nor characters adding massive bonuses with little balance around them.



Plant -> RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/3/2013 4:54:13 PM)

How has economy been made tighter? Other than needing more colonies needing more resources, which might actually end up being more beneficial for trade, I can only see the only economy difference is that you start of with a smaller population, and so less tax revenue. That is it.

The again, there is no way i can compare Legends level with Shadow levels of revenue without uninstalling Shadows and reinstalling Legends.

Other than mysterious money losses in a game I had, which I am thinking is a bug there doesn't seem to be a difference once you get the same population.

I guess there are more powerful pirates and lower starting tech level compared with pirates, but that isn't an economic effect.



scotten_usa -> RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/3/2013 5:39:38 PM)

For me, I've almost never rush techs. I don't think it's fair since I'm way smarter than the AI.



adecoy95 -> RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/3/2013 9:59:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zangi

Throw in a Wonder with its +50% development... and your income goes up by double or some such.

Also, playing on Excellent homeworld really helps with income...
Securan/Excellent Homeworld/Any Gov't/Normal = Scrooge McDuck's money bin


yep, you can manually raise their tax rate to 100% and still have a happy population, just keep an eye on the civilian sector



invaderzim -> RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/3/2013 10:35:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ScottenChi

For me, I've almost never rush techs. I don't think it's fair since I'm way smarter than the AI.



Yeah, I'd agree. I turtled on my homeworld and rushed the Open Trade Network tech for the first 10 years (built about 10-12 high-tech labs to research it faster). Once you have the Trader's Bazaar (+30 development and +50% income), you have all the money you'll need for a while. You then get the option of dropping your taxes to increase growth (at one point I had 5-10% taxes on my homeworld while still making 50-100k a year) or saving the money and using it to fund crash research. It's then easy to rush Enhanced Research which doubles your High-Tech research.

At this point you can also get the rest of the research wonders as well as the Trade Guild which gives you another 30% bonus. Stacking this bonus with a governor that provided a 30% income bonus and Trade Guild or Democracy government lead to a huge economic bonus that carried my empire for the rest of the game.

I like how wonders allow you to focus on a smaller more vertical empire instead trying to sprawl everywhere, but they might be too powerful in Shadows. At least the way the High-Tech tree is right now, it seems like it's too easy to snowball. I had weird map settings though: 250 stars, 6x6, varied clusters on Normal with 8 empires. It might be harder to turtle on a denser map with more stars and more enemies nearby.



Numdydar -> RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue? (6/4/2013 1:13:46 AM)

Yes the game settings have a HUGE impact on the game. So you can set things up at the beginning and you can still end up with a ton of money or change the settings and have income struggles the entire game. So to the OP, the answer to your question is not a simple Yes or No as you can set the game parameters up to play pretty much however you want [:)]



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