Sub Question Early Game

Sub Question Early Game (Full Version)

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DHRedge -> Sub Question Early Game (6/26/2013 7:55:28 AM)
Been thinking about various possible moves and counter moves in some future PBEM game, and subs come to mind. There are a few allied subs in the Philippines, do most allied players always play them up near Japan to hit shipping, or are there any other strategies some have used them for. Early game there is not much offense for the allies, but the subs, they can do something. Has anyone instead used them to go against various anphib transports further south? Protection of the inevitable landings in Philippines, or of any oil areas? And while hitting areas off of Japan would seem to be best shipping interdiction, wouldn't it be more effective to place them where you would know the oil was shipping from, to make sure they are hitting tankers and not resource or supply boats? Curious different ways people use subs on the Allied side early game.

tigercub -> RE: Sub Question Early Game (6/26/2013 8:33:40 AM)
Well if a sub hits a fully laden AP or AK they can realy make a mess...i would be sitting around places i know he will be soon..if there is lots of DD ASW give that spot a miss...hit and move on, as a japanese player too have a AK Sunk filled with men freaks me out...off japan early is not a bad option....but you do know he wants the OIL badly. Tigercub

Barb -> RE: Sub Question Early Game (6/26/2013 8:46:29 AM)
Some prefer using newer US subs with their dud rate for two missions: Mine laying Supply transport

DHRedge -> RE: Sub Question Early Game (6/26/2013 8:55:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Barb Some prefer using newer US subs with their dud rate for two missions: Mine laying Supply transport Good point.

DHRedge -> RE: Sub Question Early Game (6/26/2013 8:57:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tigercub Well if a sub hits a fully laden AP or AK they can realy make a mess...i would be sitting around places i know he will be soon..if there is lots of DD ASW give that spot a miss...hit and move on, as a japanese player too have a AK Sunk filled with men freaks me out...off japan early is not a bad option....but you do know he wants the OIL badly. Tigercub Playing against AI, as Japan, when troops ships are hit it is disturbing, I use multiple ships even if not needed because it is so disturbing, that is what I was wondering.

Justus2 -> RE: Sub Question Early Game (6/26/2013 6:06:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Barb Some prefer using newer US subs with their dud rate for two missions: Mine laying Supply transport I would also add Early Warning. I tend to use the starting fleet boats (longer range, but high dud rate) around Japan as well as likely major ports (Cam Ranh Bay, Shanghai, Babeldaob). They wont get many hits, but they will keep the IJN honest with escorts, and get an occasional lucky strike (I got a hit on Shokaku returning from the opening PH strike as it approached Japan in my current game). I also use them to patrol the Kuriles and various areas in CENPAC as early warning, to detect enemy shipping. The older 'S' class boats, with shorter range but better torps (and the good Dutch boats) I use to disrupt potential landing sites in the Phillipines and DEI.

DHRedge -> RE: Sub Question Early Game (6/26/2013 6:33:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Justus2 I would also add Early Warning. I tend to use the starting fleet boats (longer range, but high dud rate) around Japan as well as likely major ports (Cam Ranh Bay, Shanghai, Babeldaob). They wont get many hits, but they will keep the IJN honest with escorts, and get an occasional lucky strike (I got a hit on Shokaku returning from the opening PH strike as it approached Japan in my current game). I also use them to patrol the Kuriles and various areas in CENPAC as early warning, to detect enemy shipping. The older 'S' class boats, with shorter range but better torps (and the good Dutch boats) I use to disrupt potential landing sites in the Phillipines and DEI. The idea of playing PBEM, and playing against AI, is much different, when learning the game, I played the first month a few times, and, noticed the pattern of AI subs, when playing a person, it is not learning a pattern, since people will adjust more then an AI. So been trying to think on what Allies might try to do, and the idea of subs being anywhere, does as you say, keep the player honest, making sure all convoys are escorted and extra transports are used in anphibs to lower losses if a ship is hit. I actually think the doolittle raid on Japan was that same thing. If the home islands are hit, Japan would then have to pull some assets from front lines to cover home islands and search seas out from home islands. Such an attack makes them have to patrol rear areas also, in part to take forces from advanced positions.

dr.hal -> RE: Sub Question Early Game (6/27/2013 12:02:12 PM)
The Dutch and S class US boats are your "offensive" weapons to actively go after the Japanese. Your US "Fleet" boats are your pickets. If they hit something, so much the better, but you don't count on it. I also leave a boat of two around Japan and hope they hit something to remind the Japanese player to keep back ASW assets "or else." But as stated above one of the really good uses of the "Fleet" boats is mining. A field once "hit" will be swept but the whole idea is to keep the Japanese player off balance and retaining assets in "back" waters. Of course all this changes dramatically in terms of numbers if the Jap player goes after Manila rather than Pearl. Hal

rockmedic109 -> RE: Sub Question Early Game (6/27/2013 5:33:13 PM)
Even if the fleet boats don't succeed because of their torp problems, they are still gaining EXP, in addition to forcing escorted convoys, giving info on supply routes, forcing fuel expenditure as convoys move to avoid them, etc. When they get good torps, that EXP gain will be put to good use.

inqistor -> RE: Sub Question Early Game (6/27/2013 6:41:42 PM)
I always initially use them for Amphibious TF interdiction. Early war ASW is so bad, that you can safely even keep your subs in shallow water, when Japanese transports unload. In theory, you should use your US subs, with bad torpedoes to hunt unescorted transports (so they use their guns). And most severe blow would be to sink loaded tankers, which deliver fuel to newly conquered Japanese bases far south (like Tarawa, or Rabaul), but this is lots of micro-management, and guessing. Anything sunk in DEI can be replaced in few days.

rms1pa -> RE: Sub Question Early Game (6/28/2013 6:06:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: inqistor I always initially use them for Amphibious TF interdiction. Early war ASW is so bad, that you can safely even keep your subs in shallow water, when Japanese transports unload. In theory, you should use your US subs, with bad torpedoes to hunt unescorted transports (so they use their guns). And most severe blow would be to sink loaded tankers, which deliver fuel to newly conquered Japanese bases far south (like Tarawa, or Rabaul), but this is lots of micro-management, and guessing. Anything sunk in DEI can be replaced in few days. love to sink the IJA LSD's,only 2 of them i believe. rms/pa

Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: Sub Question Early Game (6/28/2013 9:29:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rms1pa quote: ORIGINAL: inqistor I always initially use them for Amphibious TF interdiction. Early war ASW is so bad, that you can safely even keep your subs in shallow water, when Japanese transports unload. In theory, you should use your US subs, with bad torpedoes to hunt unescorted transports (so they use their guns). And most severe blow would be to sink loaded tankers, which deliver fuel to newly conquered Japanese bases far south (like Tarawa, or Rabaul), but this is lots of micro-management, and guessing. Anything sunk in DEI can be replaced in few days. love to sink the IJA LSD's,only 2 of them i believe. rms/pa There are 2 or 3 max... and in my experience, these are torpedo magnets... I don't know how or why, but it doesn't matter how many escorts I use, they always get the torpedo,

inqistor -> RE: Sub Question Early Game (6/29/2013 9:41:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury quote: ORIGINAL: rms1pa love to sink the IJA LSD's,only 2 of them i believe. rms/pa There are 2 or 3 max... and in my experience, these are torpedo magnets... I don't know how or why, but it doesn't matter how many escorts I use, they always get the torpedo, Submarine detection seems to be based on number of ASW weapons, so this is more problem of number of those weapons on your escorts (to detect, before it attacks), than sheer number of escorts.

tiemanjw -> RE: Sub Question Early Game (7/2/2013 1:29:03 AM)
I put a wolf pack east, one north, and one west of the Phillipines. I was hoping for a transport or 2. I got a light carrier in the east. Then I got big ideas and started hunting the KB as he moved in to support the takeover of the Dutch East Indies. I managed to bag the Akagi and one other big carrier. So even with the high dud rate, they can be effective. I would say keep them in packs, anticipate his moves (those confimed waters make this easier), and hope for some luck.

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