Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (Full Version)

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Icedawg -> Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/2/2013 4:31:05 PM)

I was just perusing the Matrix "Products" page and was struck by the complete lack of games from the Vietnam Era. Other companies also offer relatively few games dealing with this American disaster. Is this shortage simply an artifact of the politically unpopular nature of that war? Or is it perhaps due to the temporal proximity and associated pains of lost family members/friends?

Any ideas?

Personally, I would be interested in playing a game centered on Vietnam at any level - from tactical on up to grand strategic. There would be lots of relatively unique features to such a game (air lifting via chopper, political considerations to avoid a larger regional/global war, avoiding civilian casualties while dealing with counter insurgency, simultaneous symmetrical and asymmetrical warfare . . . .). It would really make for an interesting change of pace.



janh -> RE: Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/2/2013 4:55:44 PM)

Unfortunately I have not come across many V-E games so far either. A few rather sub-average helicopter simulations, A2A combat being woven in as parts of other games (Chuck Yeagers air combat, or Jane's Fighter Anthology), but several ground and infantry combat simulations since the C64 era. However, I only know of a single one strategy level computer game, and none on the tactical level. I think ASL has scenarios on that time frame, though. The strategy game was published sometime in the mid-90s, if I recall correctly. I think I have seen it recently somewhere in the abandonware corner. If I recall the title, I will let you know. It had exactly those components you mention including political level factors. Unfortunately AI was not that good.



Shellshock -> RE: Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/2/2013 5:00:42 PM)

I can think of only one title that ever dealt with the war on the strategic level.

[img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Jrvv_2j-kVA/T1G_Ea3UlwI/AAAAAAAAAo4/wNqzve8mgaA/s1600/Vietnam.jpg[/img]



joey -> RE: Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/2/2013 5:20:31 PM)

I think this war would be very difficult to simulate. There wasn't really a front line. Battles were not fought establish or move a front line, but instead, were fought to attrit the enemy. Where the enemy was, was not always known. Who the enemy was, was also not always known. It was guerilla warfare at its finest. How does a game simulate that?



Shellshock -> RE: Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/2/2013 5:27:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joey

I think this war would be very difficult to simulate. There wasn't really a front line. Battles were not fought establish or move a front line, but instead, were fought to attrit the enemy. Where the enemy was, was not always known. Who the enemy was, was also not always known. It was guerilla warfare at its finest. How does a game simulate that?


Basically, for the US, a game of whack-a-mole on a very large and expensive scale. North Vietnamese units can always regroup and be back at some to fight the struggle for however many years it takes. They fought the Chinese and the French for a lot longer.



joey -> RE: Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/2/2013 5:44:23 PM)

I think whack-a-mole is a good way to put it. Not only did you have NVA troops, but you also had VC units. These units did not always were uniforms or in any way told you they were the enemy. To add another layer to the simulations would be the rules of engagement laid down by Washington. Difficult to win let alone simulate.



Icedawg -> RE: Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/2/2013 6:14:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joey

I think this war would be very difficult to simulate. There wasn't really a front line. Battles were not fought establish or move a front line, but instead, were fought to attrit the enemy. Where the enemy was, was not always known. Who the enemy was, was also not always known. It was guerilla warfare at its finest. How does a game simulate that?


Maybe that's it, but if we can put a man on the moon . . . .



Shellshock -> RE: Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/2/2013 6:26:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

quote:

ORIGINAL: joey

I think this war would be very difficult to simulate. There wasn't really a front line. Battles were not fought establish or move a front line, but instead, were fought to attrit the enemy. Where the enemy was, was not always known. Who the enemy was, was also not always known. It was guerilla warfare at its finest. How does a game simulate that?


Maybe that's it, but if we can put a man on the moon . . . .


Yes, but note that we haven't set foot back on the moon in forty years.

Maybe that explains the dearth of Vietnam War games. Lack of interest.

Either that or the war was a giant conspiracy shot in a studio. [:D]



czert2 -> RE: Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/2/2013 6:34:04 PM)

well it will be realy interesibng to have from this era at tactical/stategical lvl. And i will love to have some political stupidities...er i mean rules from washington how to wage war (and you pay political poits to ease them :).
This war should be easily won by us if politicans keep they nose from military operations and military was using more brain how to fight. Vwery nice show how to sucesfulyl wage combat operation was task force G used by frogs in earlier war. Task force G was composed by WWII german veterans (yes including ss members).



Yaab -> RE: Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/2/2013 6:35:07 PM)

As a Pole, with no emotional attachment to the Vietnam war, I would like to play a Vietnam war game to better understand the conflict. I guess the war is still an emotional scar on American psyche and there are few developers willing to create Vietnam wargames.



jeffk3510 -> RE: Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/2/2013 6:49:34 PM)

There may be some mods for John Tiller's Campaign Series, but I am not 100% sure on that. It is a fun tactical level game that does a decent job of modeling land combat. There isn't anything but "off may" artillery from ships in some scenarios, so the naval aspect is almost no existent.



Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/2/2013 7:16:36 PM)

I remember playing some Vietnam scenarios in Norm Kogers's TOAW II

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Operational_Art_of_War

a quite interesting 90s, operational level, hexagonal view game



Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/2/2013 7:21:47 PM)

I also remember, barely, playing Sid Meier's Conflict in Vietnam; this in the 80s

I was young and didn't quite fully understand the game, but I remember having lots of fun in "Dien Bien Phu" scenario kicking the French



geofflambert -> RE: Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/2/2013 7:39:06 PM)

The Vietnam War and for that matter our (US) Afghani conflict are very difficult to simulate and not much like war as we wargamers know it. But there is a striking resemblance to the American Revolutionary War and we don't see many wargames for that either.



geofflambert -> RE: Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/2/2013 7:44:23 PM)

Similar conflicts include the partisan war in the Pripyat during WWII as well as in Jugoslavia, our (US) little adventure with colonialism in the Phillipines and various British Empire sticky wickets.



catwhoorg -> RE: Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/2/2013 8:05:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shellshock

I can think of only one title that ever dealt with the war on the strategic level.

[img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Jrvv_2j-kVA/T1G_Ea3UlwI/AAAAAAAAAo4/wNqzve8mgaA/s1600/Vietnam.jpg[/img]


I remember playing that against my brother, many many moons ago.
The small scenarios were quite fun.
The whole campaign well we got a little way through and it just wasn't being fun for either of us.



21pzr -> RE: Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/2/2013 8:52:28 PM)

John Tiller's Squad Battles series of tactical games includes 2 Vietnam titles: "Vietnam" and "Tour of Duty". I have not played these, and am not that experienced with the Squad Battles series, but JT generally puts out a good game.



nashvillen -> RE: Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/2/2013 9:08:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shellshock

I can think of only one title that ever dealt with the war on the strategic level.

[img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Jrvv_2j-kVA/T1G_Ea3UlwI/AAAAAAAAAo4/wNqzve8mgaA/s1600/Vietnam.jpg[/img]


I remember playing that against my brother, many many moons ago.
The small scenarios were quite fun.
The whole campaign well we got a little way through and it just wasn't being fun for either of us.

The way this handles the pacification of the locals is interesting. I would have liked to played it against someone, as trying solitaire wasn't much fun. Still have it on my shelf.



Cribtop -> RE: Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/2/2013 9:44:04 PM)

My friends and I were hard core board gamers. We opened the Vietnam game and it was overwhelming. I was willing to give it a shot, my buddies asked to play something simpler, like Empires in Arms.

I did have a friend who ran some very interesting tactical scenarios with miniatures. He played the VC/NVA and used hidden movement while the US and Allied forces marched or landed under the control of the other players. Really good stuff, especially the scenario where a village search for caches of rice found an NVA company supported by a tank!



fcharton -> RE: Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/2/2013 10:35:38 PM)

VG Vietnam is a pretty good game, but a very unusual design... Basically, you had an extreme version the "sequential operation" system, which is a hallmark of many VG games (including Pacific War), which broke the sequence of play we're all familiar with. The short scenarios are a lot of fun. The campaign is involved, but very interesting.

As others have said, there are decent vietnam scenarios in tactical games. I have fond memories of SPI Patrol's Vietnam scenarios, which worked very well because they were very asymmetric, I suspect the other games in the series (sniper, commando) might work too. You also have decent (french, and spanish) games about the French Indochina war (look up past copies of Vae Victis and Alea).

As for computer games, I suspect the market for serious wargames, and the audience of this forum, explains the lack of them. We're an old bunch, and this is in living memory... not sure everyone wants to "game" this.

Francois



pompack -> RE: Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/2/2013 11:12:38 PM)

Once we start talking boardgames, there was Year of the Rat from SPI.

I remember playing it a bit but I don't think I liked it much because I can't remember anything about it other than the title and the cover from the mag.



spence -> RE: Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/2/2013 11:18:27 PM)

I would like to recommend an excellent book: "On Strategy: A Critical Analysis of the Vietnam War" by Col H.G. Summers Jr.

Chapter One begins:

"'You know you never defeated us on the battlefield' said the American colonel. The North Vietnamese colonel pondered that remark for a moment. 'That may be so', he replied, 'but it is also irrelevant.'
Conversation in Hanoi, April, 1975"

I think that explains all there is about how much enjoyment the American/South Vietnamese Player will have playing that game.



DHRedge -> RE: Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/2/2013 11:40:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence


"'You know you never defeated us on the battlefield' said the American colonel. The North Vietnamese colonel pondered that remark for a moment. 'That may be so', he replied, 'but it is also irrelevant.'
Conversation in Hanoi, April, 1975"



Great quote,

and if someone tries to teach, and is ignored and thought irrelevant, if there teaching does not correct a problem.
Specifically the beer and travel money sent to me.
Then words must become actions, so that it is relevant to the person being spoken to in a way they understand.

The exact theme of the TV show Breaking Bad.
And the rational for manifestations into reality that create effects.

Also the larger topic of Right To Revolution, where when teaching, he did not have the money to live.
Therefore he has the right to move in directions outside of bounds of social contract, since social contract did not correctly address the problem.

Side note, in that story he had some other avenues, for instance someone he once helped long ago, that made millions off of his ideas, (in that Show so there is some writer disagreement with muse)offered him cash to correct the problem, and he could have taken that route, his pride stopped him.

So I have been posting to make it known that my pride is not an issue, and a suitcase of cash can be sent to me to correct the problem, by the various groups that have been reading my posts in various places for years. Not allowing for those that gained in the past to correct the problem is an error in that TV Show, and an error I avoided, however I can still throw the bag of ice on the floor. My friend was treated wrongly, now money must be sent to me.

Or if you want to see Zero as Da Vinci would write it, you can see that RE is in Oz O RE Z

Simple Minds - Alive and Kicking
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljIQo1OHkTI



DD696 -> RE: Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/2/2013 11:57:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DHRedge


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence


"'You know you never defeated us on the battlefield' said the American colonel. The North Vietnamese colonel pondered that remark for a moment. 'That may be so', he replied, 'but it is also irrelevant.'
Conversation in Hanoi, April, 1975"



Great quote,

and if someone tries to teach, and is ignored and thought irrelevant, if there teaching does not correct a problem.
Specifically the beer and travel money sent to me.
Then words must become actions, so that it is relevant to the person being spoken to in a way they understand.

The exact theme of the TV show Breaking Bad.
And the rational for manifestations into reality that create effects.

Also the larger topic of Right To Revolution, where when teaching, he did not have the money to live.
Therefore he has the right to move in directions outside of bounds of social contract, since social contract did not correctly address the problem.

Side note, in that story he had some other avenues, for instance someone he once helped long ago, that made millions off of his ideas, (in that Show so there is some writer disagreement with muse)offered him cash to correct the problem, and he could have taken that route, his pride stopped him.

So I have been posting to make it known that my pride is not an issue, and a suitcase of cash can be sent to me to correct the problem, by the various groups that have been reading my posts in various places for years. Not allowing for those that gained in the past to correct the problem is an error in that TV Show, and an error I avoided, however I can still throw the bag of ice on the floor. My friend was treated wrongly, now money must be sent to me.


Holy Mother of god.....

I will gladly send you enough beer for you to drown in if you would only do so, solving your problem and one of mine.



catwhoorg -> RE: Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/3/2013 1:09:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton

VG Vietnam is a pretty good game, but a very unusual design... Basically, you had an extreme version the "sequential operation" system, which is a hallmark of many VG games (including Pacific War), which broke the sequence of play we're all familiar with. The short scenarios are a lot of fun. The campaign is involved, but very interesting.

As others have said, there are decent vietnam scenarios in tactical games. I have fond memories of SPI Patrol's Vietnam scenarios, which worked very well because they were very asymmetric, I suspect the other games in the series (sniper, commando) might work too. You also have decent (french, and spanish) games about the French Indochina war (look up past copies of Vae Victis and Alea).

As for computer games, I suspect the market for serious wargames, and the audience of this forum, explains the lack of them. We're an old bunch, and this is in living memory... not sure everyone wants to "game" this.

Francois


The game taught me the importance of interdiction and area denial.

Prior I really thought artillery was just to blow stuff up.



wdolson -> RE: Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/3/2013 4:07:48 AM)

At this point the Vietnam War is 40 years in our rear view mirror, as far back as WW II was in 1985 when board war games were at their peak. I believe board wargames enjoyed some level of popularity in Germany who was sort of in the same situation as the US is now about Vietnam. I don't think it's so much about how the public feels about Vietnam now (wargamers tend to have different opinions about conflict than the general public anyway), but has more to say about the difficulties in modeling such a conflict.

Insurgency warfare can be modeled on a tactical level in a game like ASL. In small scale actions insurgency battles aren't that different from infantry battles between nation states. The problems come in with modeling on any larger scale. Insurgencies are sort of grass roots warfare and while you can probably model one side pretty easily, modeling the insurgency side is very tough. Operational and strategic games often have a major component of supply which insurgencies do very ad hoc and unconventionally. How do you model an enemy that fades into the background population as soon as the shooting stops?

Play balance would be very difficult to achieve. Many years ago in the AH magazine The General there was an article on the science of designing a wargame. I was not long out of school with my engineering degree and I recognized a lot of overlap. If you want a game people will actually play, balance is important.

WitP started out as Uncommon Valor because that was the period of the war in the Pacific where things did hang in the balance. Guadalcanal could have gone either way in the late 42 time frame, but in the larger time frame Japan was doomed. WitP achieves balance with a victory points system and two periods of the game that are very unbalanced. But it achieves balance in the end.

Figuring out how to achieve balance between an overwhelmingly strong US military machine on one side and a bunch of scrappy jungle fighters with some foreign aid on the other would be very tough.

There were also political hamstringing that would be very difficult to model. This is probably one reason I can't think of any wargames of the Korean War. Modeling the armies would be a lot easier than Vietnam, but somehow putting the political limits on UN forces they worked under in the real war would be tough.

In some ways a Korean War game might be kind of fun because both sides employed the best of WW II hardware (more on the UN side) along with some newer toys like early jets. In something like ASL's WW II scenarios there are only one or two that feature US hardware like the Pershing, but there were lots of those in UN service in Korea.

Bill



Justus2 -> RE: Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/3/2013 4:30:49 AM)

I remember playing a game in the 80s called South Africa (hypothetical war of the apartheid government against a black insurgency, supported by Angola and other neighboring nations). Similar challenge, although from what I remember it had some unique rules on hex control etc to simulate the support of the populace for the insurgency (IIRC, some of the counters were kept flipped over, the SA player could 'search and destroy', they might catch an insurgent unit or even an infiltrator from Angola, but if the flipped counter was blank, it would trigger political consequences instead). Definitely had some high-tech units, air assault, jets for air support, but on the other hand, the insurgent player could patiently build up support until the SA were surrounded.

Boardgamegeek link

I remember at the time looking at options to adapt the ruleset for a Vietnam conversion, it seems the system would have some similarities.

Edit: Here's a review on that site with a better description of some of the mechanics.
Review



comte -> RE: Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/3/2013 4:57:36 AM)

Brace yourselves Fire in the Lake is coming

http://www.gmtgames.com/p-450-fire-in-the-lake.aspx



GaryChildress -> RE: Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/3/2013 7:46:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joey

I think this war would be very difficult to simulate. There wasn't really a front line. Battles were not fought establish or move a front line, but instead, were fought to attrit the enemy. Where the enemy was, was not always known. Who the enemy was, was also not always known. It was guerilla warfare at its finest. How does a game simulate that?


Agree.

Any serious strategic simulation of the Vietnam war would be a bit boring by wargaming standards I would think. Even on the tactical level "whack a mole" doesn't sound very interesting. Send in my troops to win all the battles, then lose the war. What kind of wargame would that be?

Although, I will say that there is a really fun Civilization III scenario by a guy named El Justo which deals with the Vietnam War, of course all the fun is in the fact that it isn't even remotely a simulation wargame, just good "beer and pretzel" fun.



Shellshock -> RE: Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games (7/3/2013 8:07:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

This is probably one reason I can't think of any wargames of the Korean War. Modeling the armies would be a lot easier than Vietnam, but somehow putting the political limits on UN forces they worked under in the real war would be tough.

In some ways a Korean War game might be kind of fun because both sides employed the best of WW II hardware (more on the UN side) along with some newer toys like early jets. In something like ASL's WW II scenarios there are only one or two that feature US hardware like the Pershing, but there were lots of those in UN service in Korea.

Bill


There was one stand alone Korean War title for a PC game I recall. Conflict Korea by Norm Koger which came out in 1992. But even it only covered the the first "fluid" year of the war. The three years of static warfare while peace negations dragged on didn't get simulated. It also had a hypothetical 1995 scenario included. 1995...our old future.

Needless to say, by modern standards it looks pretty out of date with the VGA graphics and all.

[img]http://pyxis.homestead.com/Conflict-Korea.jpg[/img]



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