Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov) (Full Version)

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mktours -> Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov) (8/8/2013 2:43:45 PM)

My PBEM game with Marquo has well developed and the two sides are well matched (the GHC has some big early success and also made some big mistakes; the SHC suffer some big early lose but has steadied the situation), so I think it might be the right time now to start an AAR for recording the campaign. It is going to be a long game.
Marquo has recommended that we do the VC260 version, but I would like to try the full campaign, so we made an agreement that we start with the full campaign but Marquo would have the right to alter the terms once after 1941.
The rules are as follows:
41-45 full campaign game (normal setting, full FOW. 1.0708version )
No Para drops to break pockets at anytime in the game. No Para missions at all by the Soviets until the first Blizzard.
No bombing of HQ's unless stacked with a ground unit
Only 3 air attacks on city/ports per city per turn.
No-random weather



mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/8/2013 2:45:05 PM)

T1north
Pretty historical opening: 41pz took Riga, 56Pz took Daugavpils. I took Totenkopf SS away from 4PzG and railed it towards Romania (would reach in T2).


[image]local://upfiles/44785/098B583821FE40FB9A9E1732CF68C1D5.jpg[/image]



mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/8/2013 2:46:26 PM)

T1center
I only used 1 mot and 1 panzer divs from 2PzG to help 3PzG forming the Minsk Pocket, all the rest of 2 PzG was sent to south, with 1 Panzer div on the rail towards Romania (would reach in T2).


[image]local://upfiles/44785/D7D62613932747AC9EA863B96484CF5E.jpg[/image]



mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/8/2013 2:47:45 PM)

T1south
In the south, I didn’t do the Lvov opening. In my opinion, Lvov opening is indeed not a good opening for GHC as it releases The South Front one turn earlier than 11Th Army, and left so many good soviet troops east of the pocket out.
There were several goals to achieve in my south opening: 1) attack the Kovel soviet army and herd them into a tight pocket; 2)pocket or pin the strong soviet army in the vicinity of Shepetovka; 3)cut the rail line in Proskurov; 4)maximize the 1MP attack bonus in T1 on the unready soviet troops, use all the 17th army and 6th army to attack, do a pincer attack to cut off the Lvov area, then rout the isolated troops out; 5) use two powerful panzer divs to beat the tank and motorize divs in the vicinity of Tarnopol all the way out and clear the zone for the quick advance of infantry in T2.
I have played this south opening in all my 3 PBEM games as GHC and these goals were all approximately achieved, in this game I messed up some sequence of attack and had to take provisional measures to compensate, so it was not as good as the other two games, but it was still a good opening.
The two on the train divisions could be spotted in this picture as well. They were going to Romania but would only attack in T3 with the unfrozen 11th army.


[image]local://upfiles/44785/A5670764CAE84615BDB8CF90D5C74D46.jpg[/image]



mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/8/2013 3:01:11 PM)

I would keep this AAR update with the progress of our game at appropriate time.
Any comments are welcomed.



Toidi -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/9/2013 5:01:06 AM)

As you wanted comments... here you have some...

1. Middle pocket will be trivially opened (by sec division south of Minsk). That at best slows you down a turn. Also it may allow (not sure whether there will be within range) for evac of all support units attached to army HQ in that pocket (+ planes).

2. South - the downside of not making a pocket around Lviv is that again all the support units attached to HQ will be removed by a decent player. Also, the airplanes can be evacuated without penalties for broken airframes. Also, there is a slight possibility that Marquo will cut some divisions around Rovno/ Klevan area - not very likely, but if it happens, it is bad for you... Even worse (but very unlikely) would be a cut via the hex east of Lutsk. Still, for any of those Marquo would need to be lucky with the reckon and the mp/morale of one of the unit west of Ostrog - as such not very likely. But the tank divisions in the west will be cut (blue tanks likely, red tank certainly). Not sure whether it is worth it...

3. I believe railing units to Romania is wrong for historical accuracy, but from game perspective it is a good idea (hope it will be disallowed next patch). The way you did it is not a game breaker though

4. Parts of the north pocket may be opened if you are not lucky (Marquo would need one of the routed units west of Daugava unrout and move south-west, and the infantry inside to have enough mp to move inside the territory to the rail line west of Rokiskis. Again, that will lead to a delay. I would say more often than not it will be opened...

5. Units in the north may be evac by the Ventsi... port in the north, they are not cut... Of course, that would require them to unrout and have enough mp to do that, which is unlikely. But the support units from HQ may be removed.


All in all, it much depends on how Marquo will play against the south gambit, but you can certainly improve your north/middle opening. However, after this opening, Marquo has, in my opinion, very decent chances to have good game...

Also, from the armaments perspective, routing hq in the pocket will lead to losing some 20% of the attached support unit troops & equipment; Artillery support unit cost is more or less 1/3 of the infantry division (depending on su, sometime more, sometimes less). So evacuation of 10 su is more or less as good as evacuation of 2-3 infantry divisions. There are some morale loses avoided too, but those are less important nowadays when you get to NM rather quickly... On a bright side, Marquo may not have enough points to move out all the support units...

Good luck,
T.

====
Edit.

Correction - I forgot the screen is from the Axis perspective. As such the hexes in the north and middle will flip so the pocket opening will not be trivial. Actually in such case north will certainly and middle most likely hold... Me bad... As such disregard points 1 & 4. Middle may be opened through Dzerzhinsk if you are unlucky though and Marquo will have enough mp to get to the hex north of Stolbtsy from inside of the pocket and to the marshes NW of sec division with infantry... the inside is tricky as the terrain is tough, but if he gets a lucky roll (or a lucky mp roll on the infantry at the Sec division) it may happen... Not likely in turn 1, but turn 2 would be very possible.

T.






mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/9/2013 5:31:52 AM)

Thank you! Toidi
very good comments! i learn much from it, it is the first time that i learn some of the tips you mentioned: the evac of SU;and the armament issue. please keep giving more tips[:)]
in our game the Minsk big pocket held, i did a sandbox experiment, and my conclusion is that this pocket could not be broken, i have play 3 PBEM games as GHC, and this pocket was held in all the 3 games.
our game is very interesting and challenging for both sides, and would be very noval, so i hope you could come to have a look later and give more comments,[:)]
some of your questions would be answered in my report of T2, we have only finished T5, so it has to wait for some time.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Toidi

As you wanted comments... here you have some...

1. Middle pocket will be trivially opened (by sec division south of Minsk). That at best slows you down a turn. Also it may allow (not sure whether there will be within range) for evac of all support units attached to army HQ in that pocket (+ planes).

2. South - the downside of not making a pocket around Lviv is that again all the support units attached to HQ will be removed by a decent player. Also, the airplanes can be evacuated without penalties for broken airframes. Also, there is a slight possibility that Marquo will cut some divisions around Rovno/ Klevan area - not very likely, but if it happens, it is bad for you... Even worse (but very unlikely) would be a cut via the hex east of Lutsk. Still, for any of those Marquo would need to be lucky with the reckon and the mp/morale of one of the unit west of Ostrog - as such not very likely. But the tank divisions in the west will be cut (blue tanks likely, red tank certainly). Not sure whether it is worth it...

3. I believe railing units to Romania is wrong for historical accuracy, but from game perspective it is a good idea (hope it will be disallowed next patch). The way you did it is not a game breaker though

4. Parts of the north pocket may be opened if you are not lucky (Marquo would need one of the routed units west of Daugava unrout and move south-west, and the infantry inside to have enough mp to move inside the territory to the rail line west of Rokiskis. Again, that will lead to a delay. I would say more often than not it will be opened...

5. Units in the north may be evac by the Ventsi... port in the north, they are not cut... Of course, that would require them to unrout and have enough mp to do that, which is unlikely. But the support units from HQ may be removed.


All in all, it much depends on how Marquo will play against the south gambit, but you can certainly improve your north/middle opening. However, after this opening, Marquo has, in my opinion, very decent chances to have good game...

Also, from the armaments perspective, routing hq in the pocket will lead to losing some 20% of the attached support unit troops & equipment; Artillery support unit cost is more or less 1/3 of the infantry division (depending on su, sometime more, sometimes less). So evacuation of 10 su is more or less as good as evacuation of 2-3 infantry divisions. There are some morale loses avoided too, but those are less important nowadays when you get to NM rather quickly... On a bright side, Marquo may not have enough points to move out all the support units...

Good luck,
T.

====
Edit.

Correction - I forgot the screen is from the Axis perspective. As such the hexes in the north and middle will flip so the pocket opening will not be trivial. Actually in such case north will certainly and middle most likely hold... Me bad... As such disregard points 1 & 4.

T.








Gabriel B. -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/9/2013 8:02:37 AM)

On the historical part :

41pz crosed the Dvina between Plavinas and Jekapils and headed for Ostrov ( South of PSKOV ).




loki100 -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/9/2013 8:25:54 AM)

good to see a very different set of openings to the usual 'paint by numbers' maximisation of others.

adding some extra mobility to 11A could create a very dynamic situation in the Ukraine - be interesting to see how that develops



mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/9/2013 4:05:18 PM)

Thanks for the information, but i remembered that 41pz did take Riga, I have not reference on hand, I could be wrong.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

On the historical part :

41pz crosed the Dvina between Plavinas and Jekapils and headed for Ostrov ( South of PSKOV ).






mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/9/2013 4:13:02 PM)



thanks, Loki
i think all the credit should go to Marquo, who have a generous mind to allow me to try some new opening and didn't complain a single word about it. our game is fun and we communicate in a friendly way, it is no easy to find a good player and good opponent like Marquo.
quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

good to see a very different set of openings to the usual 'paint by numbers' maximisation of others.

adding some extra mobility to 11A could create a very dynamic situation in the Ukraine - be interesting to see how that develops



juret -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/9/2013 5:28:54 PM)

i wish u good luck andand a fun game. gonna follow this aar. Nice pics and fun reading about your plans. Reminds alot of idahoyr aars who where exellent



Michael T -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/10/2013 3:13:02 AM)

Marquo is a fine player and someone I would have no hesitation in playing again.



mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/10/2013 7:43:28 AM)

thanks, Juret
our game is fun and have some interesting elements, more would be update when the game developed a few more turns, as it is going to be a joint AAR.
quote:

ORIGINAL: juret

i wish u good luck andand a fun game. gonna follow this aar. Nice pics and fun reading about your plans. Reminds alot of idahoyr aars who where exellent




mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/10/2013 7:47:00 AM)

I completely agree. I have got nice game experience with Marquo as well, the communication is good and friendly.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Marquo is a fine player and someone I would have no hesitation in playing again.




Gabriel B. -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/10/2013 3:06:51 PM)

Riga was taken by elements of 18th army ; I and XXVI Armme korps .

But I usually take it, same as you did, becuse the other side is less likly to blow up the bridge and withdraw as the soviets did.




mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/11/2013 3:11:04 PM)

I think you are right, perhaps I mess up my memory or was mislead by some poor source. Thanks.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

Riga was taken by elements of 18th army ; I and XXVI Armme korps .

But I usually take it, same as you did, becuse the other side is less likly to blow up the bridge and withdraw as the soviets did.





mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/11/2013 3:28:55 PM)


T2North, after recon
When I received the T1 from SHC, the first thing I would do is to recon the LUKI city, I have played 3 PBEM so far, and in all the 3 games the city was unguarded. The LUKI city is the pivotal center for my defense when I play the SHC, so I would like to take it as early as possible. In fact, my opening strategy is revolving around this city.
To deprive the garrison of the city, I need to pin as much Sov troops as possible so the SHC would feel short of units when he deploy his defense in the north, that is why I sent 2 PZG to south, I remember I rail 20 divs to the north from SW front when I play SHC, so I don’t want it happen when I play GHC.


[image]local://upfiles/44785/5787CB4B30344CF8A143A03130AABF36.jpg[/image]



mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/11/2013 3:42:55 PM)

To reach the LUkI city, I need 47MP from my spearhead, that is no hard to get in T2, the other thing is to get enough troops to help clearing the way, the third concern is to get powerful troops to back up, my goal is not just to take it, I want to pierce to the east in T3 with mass power. So my T1 deployment was revolving around it.
I am a big fan of Guderian, so literally all the motorize divs would be grouped together, towards LUKI.
In this game, Marquo didn’t guard the area properly, in my other two games, the SHC guard the area with power, but was clear by multy-direction approach by 2 pz group, we can see in the picture that the 3PzG units could pierce into the back of the soviet roadblocks so they can’t retreat in desirable direction.


[image]local://upfiles/44785/404336FC83D44F128E92280D86F31236.jpg[/image]



mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/11/2013 3:47:00 PM)

T2 Minsk Pocket, after recon. the pocket was held


[image]local://upfiles/44785/09EF17A2567F4DC5A0D7CBA06275443E.jpg[/image]



mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/11/2013 3:56:32 PM)

T2South after recon.
In the south, all my 3 opponent under estimated the speed of this opening. The T1 massive attack has cleared the highway for the infantry and the 2 unfrozen motorize divs of 1 PZG, so the German spearhead could be thrown as far as east Kiev in T2, and with the assistance of infantry , even this massive checker board deployed by Marquo could not stop the 2 pz group to reach east Kiev.


[image]local://upfiles/44785/35CA4832F487403BA17726640460770B.jpg[/image]



mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/11/2013 4:11:41 PM)

T2north
Literally all the troops were going towards Luki.


[image]local://upfiles/44785/4C3EA83F90D741B2845A54EEE9B24172.jpg[/image]



mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/11/2013 4:13:29 PM)

T2 Luki

[image]local://upfiles/44785/78B46D4401E14BCEB5374A1D5119C899.jpg[/image]



mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/11/2013 4:15:45 PM)

T2 center
except for the encirclement of the Minsk area, all the troops were marching towards LUKI

[image]local://upfiles/44785/9F7021628C8B4DB89E6098D06DB0B71F.jpg[/image]



mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/11/2013 4:24:04 PM)

T2South
I did a double 8MP pierce to cut the retreat route of the roadblocks and herded them into the pocket, the last roadblock was unfortunate to have very red color in the counter, showing that it was very low in morale, so it was routed. I have captured east Kiev in all the games with this opening in T2, in one game, my opponent guard Kiev, but I crossed the river, captured east Kiev and the vicinity of the city and had his garrison troops tightly surrounded. Perhaps the better way to defend this opening is to guard Kiev and the east bank of the river properly.


[image]local://upfiles/44785/8E4E3178E34B47EB9F53D6583DDF753A.jpg[/image]



mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/11/2013 4:34:26 PM)

T2 Railing
I rail the 14 pz corps and the HQ of 1 pzG to romania, together with the 2 divs railing towards Romania in T1, there would be 3 SS and 2 90 morale Pz divs in Romania, they would attack with the unfrozen 11th Army in T3.

[image]local://upfiles/44785/73EE801F4A4542FF947CF3DB46ACEC0E.jpg[/image]



mmarquo -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/11/2013 5:59:14 PM)

For me this well-planned opening by Tours defines the end of WITE 1 as a competitive game. The Dnepr was breached on turn 2, and virtually the entire Southern and Southwest Fronts were surrounded on turn three. Even though the pockets were porous, the massive number of units removed from effective play meant that I had to divert some reinforcements to the south, and was unable to send much of anything to the center or north. The extended massive Lvov pockets coupled with the trans-Hungary/Rumanian rail express is unbeatable.

Also, the use of bombers as flying fuel tanks makes any notion of logistics a pure fantasy. He is advancing columns in a straight line wherever he wants. I was successfully counterattacking and cutting off spearheads, but it makes no difference because the units behind are well-supplied by the bombers and surge ahead.

No doubt Leningrad will fall by a massive hook around the Lake, and Moscow is no better shape.

I will play on for a while. However, for the record: I will never play WITE with non-random weather again; this is my second time and the predictability of it, coupled with the massive Ukrainian pockets, trans-Rumanian railroad and flying fuel tanks creates too much imbalance.

Hats off to Tours.

Marquo [:)]



darbycmcd -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/11/2013 7:17:42 PM)

Yes, Tours crushed me as well using these techniques. He does very well with it. But it is like you said, it makes the game just a puzzle for the German player, there is no connection to operational art or the historical war. I think the worst is the use of air resupply, even without using bombers, it was just absolutely impossible to achieve on the scale that German players are using it. The game is already far to lax with logistics anyway. The game works well with players who want a more historical type of experience, but right now seems to be driven by more gamer type players.



Flaviusx -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/11/2013 8:19:18 PM)

I've given up on PBEM myself. Things have gotten way too gamey and ahistorical. Nothing short of a total game overhaul will fix things.

Trying to figure out a good solo setting. This is going to vary according to individual taste and ability. The thing that is keeping the game fresh for me, oddly enough, is this latest graphics mod. It is so pretty.



darbycmcd -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/11/2013 8:23:14 PM)

Well, I think PBEM can work if both players are interested in an historical game. It is hard to find though, there is lots of incentive for the German player to work the system, because otherwise the war is a bit of a slog. But I am playing a game with Belphagor, and we are doing something that is fairly historical. I would say that means he is playing much better than me overall because it is incredibly difficult for the German player to even do historically against a Soviet player not named Stalin.



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