RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (Full Version)

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mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/15/2013 1:45:38 AM)

Hi, Marquo
this picture is what you took after yout T8, I just got your T8 and didn't do my T9 yet. so it is irrelevant to the point, in fact, there were only 4-5 motorizee& panzer divisions that in the action from T4-T6, I rest the other 7-8 divisons in the rear, some as back as LUKI, and my rail line was fastly approaching to luki by 2 RR division, and almost all the air drop went to the rear divisions and HQs, in T7, it is those well-rested divisons that attacked out along with the mass infantry that just marched to there. they are well supply and of cource, have feul in the tank after the turn, so they still got much MP to sustain the action in T8, after T8, the mission has been finshed (the rail line to leningrad had been cut), all the job would be carried out by infantry then. this picture is token after the soviet T8, and I just got the file, and the spearhead didn't got much MP, indeed very few, since I didn't do my T9 yet, I reserve to answer it later, but one thing for sure is it no relevant to the issue,[:)]
my suggestion is that you check out the battle report of each turn and make a list of the motorize & panzer divisions in the battle in each turn, then you would see you are not dealing with all the panzers from T4 to T6, you were only hit by all of them in T7, after the dam cracked by infantry. [:)]
I even send the entire KG51 bombers to the north as I saw it as the Key area. as so many people are interested in the logistic side, I would explain it later with the reports of the following turns.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Someone with more insight (MT) will need to explain how it possible for units in the following condition to maintain/attain good MPs. The northern most Axis units in this picture were cut off by a Soviet counterattack, with the lead unit at SP 90; all of the units are > 50 MPs from a railhead, yet are moving in a column seemingly at will; and through multiple layers of ZOCs.



[image]local://upfiles/1355/32BC9AB87053485E914239D2C4EEB172.jpg[/image]




mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/15/2013 1:51:17 AM)

I would explain it with detail reports of each turn, there is nothing abnormal in the process. I have just got the T8soviet, and I am working at this moment, so the reports would be done later.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo
It is the logistics which have me baffled; I will post shots of Axis spearheads cut off, glowing yellow, in multiple ZOCS and yet they still surge forward almost unimpeded. [:)]


I'd be interested in seeing that and also in hearing from Mktours with any insights on his method for sustaining his advance (I assume heavy air resupply is a large part, but he is likely planning much more carefully than that).

Regards,

- Erik




mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/15/2013 2:14:33 AM)

the leading motorize divisions which marched as far as 2 hexes away from the lennigrad rail line in T7 even got air drop of supply after start with 124% fuel in the tank to make sure they got enough armament in the battle.



mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/15/2013 2:20:25 AM)

indeed, we could see the leading motorize division is only 3 hexes ahead of a infantry division, if the infantry division could get there, why not the motorize ones?
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Someone with more insight (MT) will need to explain how it possible for units in the following condition to maintain/attain good MPs. The northern most Axis units in this picture were cut off by a Soviet counterattack, with the lead unit at SP 90; all of the units are > 50 MPs from a railhead, yet are moving in a column seemingly at will; and through multiple layers of ZOCs.



[image]local://upfiles/1355/32BC9AB87053485E914239D2C4EEB172.jpg[/image]




Michael T -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/15/2013 2:47:03 AM)

I really don't get all the whoha here, realism aside. From the maps all we have seen is the Axis advancing on a narrow front. Nothing new. This has always been possible. With HQBU, Air Supply and leap frogging it is quite easy to get a long way on narrow fronts. It is up to the defender to counter this with road blocks. If areas are left undefended entire swaths of country side get converted to friendly control and hence the follow up troops move up at a rapid and less fuel costly rate.

Its nothing new nor is it unstoppable.



mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/15/2013 5:52:55 AM)

Michael certainly got the point.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I really don't get all the whoha here, realism aside. From the maps all we have seen is the Axis advancing on a narrow front. Nothing new. This has always been possible. With HQBU, Air Supply and leap frogging it is quite easy to get a long way on narrow fronts. It is up to the defender to counter this with road blocks. If areas are left undefended entire swaths of country side get converted to friendly control and hence the follow up troops move up at a rapid and less fuel costly rate.

Its nothing new nor is it unstoppable.




Flaviusx -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/15/2013 11:08:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I really don't get all the whoha here, realism aside. From the maps all we have seen is the Axis advancing on a narrow front. Nothing new. This has always been possible. With HQBU, Air Supply and leap frogging it is quite easy to get a long way on narrow fronts. It is up to the defender to counter this with road blocks. If areas are left undefended entire swaths of country side get converted to friendly control and hence the follow up troops move up at a rapid and less fuel costly rate.

Its nothing new nor is it unstoppable.


MT, I think the two of you should perhaps play a game. Let's see who has the better cheese. It will be interesting from that perspective, if nothing else. The kind of people who are ok with this kind of thing should really just be playing each other.

For me, the realism bit is the whole whoha. Hopefully things will get tightened up down the line, because there is a lot of silliness going on right now as the game's model breaks down as it is pushed to do ever more ridiculous things. It's not just this particular match, either.





mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/15/2013 3:38:48 PM)

T4-Luki after recon
A sucessful counter-attack has placed the entire column of 10 motorize division and the lehr brigade out of supply. Fortunately several division has receive air drop last turn and have some MP reserved, so they still got a handful of MP at the start.

[image]local://upfiles/44785/6E20634AA5344D06A2903774767A7DC5.jpg[/image]



mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/15/2013 3:43:39 PM)

T4north-center after recon
Perhaps encouraged by the successful counter-attacks, the soviet didn’t redeploy the units in the poskov region, even though not a single hex has been stepped into by the GHC in that direction last turn.


[image]local://upfiles/44785/4CBC86BA16A245D7A7B5E71065B58BE8.jpg[/image]



mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/15/2013 3:49:21 PM)

T4south after recon
All the pockets in the south has been broken, the Kiev region has been cut off, but the city have got thousands tons of fuel in supply. So that is good news for the encircled troops.


[image]local://upfiles/44785/03CD0AAD4356453C92F0F0D80E6A6F7B.jpg[/image]



mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/15/2013 3:52:54 PM)

T4Kiev after recon
The motorize units didn’t have too much MP.


[image]local://upfiles/44785/6519EFDC878E476C9393295C54C9CEE9.jpg[/image]



mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/15/2013 3:56:30 PM)

T4 odessa after recon

[image]local://upfiles/44785/3D22C57BCF904295ADABA80B4E0A419B.jpg[/image]



mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/15/2013 4:10:13 PM)

Having the entire column of panzer divs cut off supply caused my planed massive strike impossible, so I made an adjustment, used 3 motorize units to do a pincer attack to cut off the 3 divs that did one of the counterattack.
Also could be seen in this picture that a panzer division is rested in the rear.


[image]local://upfiles/44785/19E66BB18A8542869D804F9744F017B3.jpg[/image]



mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/15/2013 4:21:57 PM)

several motorize divisions were group together and created a bridge head, throwing spearhead to reach Vyshney Volochek. Also could be seen in this picture that there were several divisions never move.
I expected the spearhead would be cut off, so air drop have been made to the divisions in the bridgehead to make sure they have enough fuel to sustain the action next turn.


[image]local://upfiles/44785/36C4AFDF8AF44CC492D527706223343D.jpg[/image]



mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/15/2013 4:27:52 PM)

T4North- end of the turn
my plan at that moment is to use the spearhead to draw units towards it and my major troops would attack towards Moscow. But a careless mistake would result in the bridgehead being cut off itself, also the situation in the beginning of next turn would be I still lacking of power to do a massive assault, we would see in the next turn.


[image]local://upfiles/44785/6F1476A332914ACBA7AB0E43E2E2E509.jpg[/image]



mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/15/2013 4:38:37 PM)

T4 center-end of turn
all the troops are marching towards LUKI
every units could be railed is on the rail towards LUKI

[image]local://upfiles/44785/58DE12BCE8D2492697664F7F0BB34684.jpg[/image]



mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/15/2013 4:52:38 PM)

T4 south_end of turn
In the south：All the pockets were re-sealed; I saw the defense around Kharkov was well-formed so I switch to South.
The break through in the LUKI area forced soviet to rail a lot of troops to react, so the industry evacuation is under pressure, D-town still got 9 armaments and 5 heavy industry in this turn, perhaps it was the reason for Marquo to deploy in front of the city to avoid it being locked, rather than guard the city itself, but I spent MP to cut the route and force the roadblocks to retreat to the other bank of Dnepr River, D-town was captured as an undefended city.

[image]local://upfiles/44785/F93E9935409E42D3BA86C85113066E60.jpg[/image]



Ketza -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/15/2013 5:54:19 PM)

Interesting advances but to what end?

After turn 5 will be interesting to see the casualties.



M60A3TTS -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/15/2013 8:13:46 PM)

Sorry, but this game belongs in the theater of the absurd. If Axis players want to keep trying to outdo each other in seeing how far east they can get a panzer division before winter, knock yourselves out. But this is tantamount to a lab experiment and has nothing whatsoever to do with a competitive game.

[sm=nono.gif]



Ketza -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/15/2013 9:00:22 PM)

Well if after 5 turns the casualties are still around 1.2 million for the Soviets its nothing different then most regardless of the deep penetrations.



SigUp -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/15/2013 9:10:01 PM)

This may be, but still, it's turn 4 and a German division is standing in Vyshny Volochek. This is plain fantasy and has nothing to do with realism anymore. And going by marquo's screens it is possible to keep the MPs of the divisions at a high level even when they are surrounded. This logistics system has been completely broken. Hats off to guys like mktours and MT who manage these kind of things, but from a realism standpoint it is just utterly ridiculous.



loki100 -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/15/2013 9:13:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SigUp

This may be, but still, it's turn 4 and a German division is standing in Vyshny Volochek. This is plain fantasy and has nothing to do with realism anymore. And going by marquo's screens it is possible to keep the MPs of the divisions at a high level even when they are surrounded. This logistics system has been completely broken. Hats off to guys like mktours and MT who manage these kind of things, but from a realism standpoint it is just utterly ridiculous.


yep completely agree. This is reducing the game to a game of chess with the mindset 'if its not forbidden by the rules its ok'. Find a lot of this sequence of AARs utterly depressing to be honest - brilliant game play and exploitation of the system but nothing to do with reality.

What turned me off say HOI3 was the series of AARs taking countries like Albania on world conquests due to rigorous exploitation of every known flaw in the game engine. Well yes you can do it ... but why?



2ndACR -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/15/2013 9:33:14 PM)

Been gone a long time and see that a bunch of things have been changed but not for the better. No matter what the German player does, unless he gets auto victory, he will lose out. The German is crushed by strict lowering of morale, reduced fixed TOE down grades and the Russians get to custom build their army from the ground up basically. Including more support units while the German is stuck with fixed units and fixed withdraw's.

Game has been fantasy for a long long time. So basically from day 1 of game release, the German has been forced to go for auto victory at all costs and come up with the way to attain them. He has no chance if the game goes past 1942. So personally, I don't cry foul about his play, and never will. The day the Russian player's forgo custom building their armies and stick with exactly what they get in the arrival screen except for auto upgrades, I might actually load this back up.



SigUp -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/15/2013 9:38:01 PM)

Hmm, if a human Soviet gets historical arrivals he may end up with a bigger army than he truly has. And I certainly don't agree that if the game gets past 42 the German has no chance. Yes, he has to do better territory-wise due to the blizzard etc. to get there, but if you look at the hex-counting of Pelton for example, it is possible to get a draw. And it's kind of an unfair comparison to compare Vyshny Volochek in turn 4 with Berlin in late 1944, early 1945.

But seeing this I wonder, what effect does the logisitcs setting have? If too generous logistics is the achilles heel of the game, how about people playing at like 40 logistics for both sides?



2ndACR -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/15/2013 9:46:13 PM)

Way back when, I saw AAR's that had the Russian at Polish borders in 1943. But that was many versions back when the Blizzard would butcher the German army worse than now, then you had the ultimate turtle game where not a single attack was made in winter 1941/42 and the German army broke their teeth and shattered trying to advance against muti level 5 forts.

Never played as the Russians so have no clue what their historical unit arrivals look like. But I have seen the massive cavalry corp build's for use in Blizzard that can gut the German if he aint careful. But this digress' so will not take up any more this AAR.



Michael T -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/16/2013 12:36:58 AM)

I am curious as to what the pro-realism faction would like to suggest to make things more - "real"

Gee I would be happy to play a game without HQBU, No LB Air Supply and Random weather even.

But will the Soviets stop putting units on Refit just to get the morale increase?
Will they agree to massive blizzard restraints?
Will they agree to build a historical OOB?
Will they impose some drastic Logistical restraints from 1943 on?
Will they invoke a Stalin like no retreat strategy and conduct suicidal counter attacks in 1941/42?
Will they limit the operational strength of their Air Force to sensible limits?
etc ect etc

If so, sure lets bring it on, be happy to take you on.



Walloc -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/16/2013 12:58:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I am curious as to what the pro-realism faction would like to suggest to make things more - "real"

Gee I would be happy to play a game without HQBU, No LB Air Supply and Random weather even.

But will the Soviets stop putting units on Refit just to get the morale increase?
Will they agree to massive blizzard restraints?
Will they agree to build a historical OOB?
Will they impose some drastic Logistical restraints from 1943 on?
Will they invoke a Stalin like no retreat strategy and conduct suicidal counter attacks in 1941/42?
Will they limit the operational strength of their Air Force to sensible limits?
etc ect etc

If so, sure lets bring it on, be happy to take you on.



I dont think this is the place to have that discussion but i would have no problem having that discussion some where else.
That said there was a discussion about the Lvov pocket / first turns in AGS. As u said ur self in another thread:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Flavius if you have issues with Rumania start another thread. Lets try and leave this one to the problem of Soviet morale in 1941. I am happy to discuss Rumanian treachery elsewhere. However things like Rumania can be fixed with a simple HR. But the morale issue is more problematic.


Kind regards,

Rasmus



Michael T -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/16/2013 1:06:46 AM)

I am not the one with issues about what is going on here. I am merely providing a counter some of the remarks made by others. Having said that I agree the discussion should go elsewhere and leave this as an AAR. Not an axe grinding millstone.



mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/16/2013 5:15:54 AM)

ketza
The effect of the thrust to east from LUKI would be seen after several more turns.
I would explain the whole strategy and underlying reasoning at appropriate time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

Interesting advances but to what end?

After turn 5 will be interesting to see the casualties.




mktours -> RE: Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)41CG (8/16/2013 5:21:59 AM)

Again, I agree that this opening gave me much advantage which I didn't deserve. In this game, Marquo was unfamiliar with and hence not preparing for this new opening and it is not his fault. The game is unbalance and greatly in favor of the GHC after T3. It is the generous mind of Marquo that allowing this game to continue. We could just view it as a process rather than a balance game after T3. Put it this way, there is one way of playing the game, and two people are playing out to see what happen, and certainly all the credit should go to Marquo as he is not preparing for it beforehand and is in unfavorable position.
This opening certainly could be handled by some SHC, if they know it beforehand and are willing to take challenge.
As I said, it could be fun for some, but would be unwelcome by many. To anyone who doesn't like this opening, here is my apology. For anyone who has a generous mind to accept or allow them to happen, here goes my thank.

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Sorry, but this game belongs in the theater of the absurd. If Axis players want to keep trying to outdo each other in seeing how far east they can get a panzer division before winter, knock yourselves out. But this is tantamount to a lab experiment and has nothing whatsoever to do with a competitive game.

[sm=nono.gif]



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