RE: Playtesting RA 6.0 (Full Version)

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Capt. Harlock -> RE: Playtesting RA 6.0 (9/18/2013 8:23:22 PM)

quote:

I am not familiar with the Alaska-Class. How much armor do they carry?


According to Wikipedia, Main side belt: 9" gradually thinning to 5", Armor deck: 3.8–4.0", Barbettes: 11–13", Turrets: 12.8" face, 5" roof, 5.25 side and rear. They did not have anti-torpedo blisters, but the official pronouncement at the time was that they had excellent internal compartmentation. How they would have stood up to enemy ordnance is a question mark; AFAIK they were never hit by anything hostile.

I confess to a great fondness for the class: I would rather have an extra one of them than an extra Indiana class battleship. Their 33-knot speed made them great carrier escorts and also useful for fast raiding missions.




John 3rd -> RE: Playtesting RA 6.0 (9/18/2013 10:02:50 PM)

They are beautiful ships. Since Japan is building the B-64 class, I would not be adverse to adding a 3rd Alaska. It was Alaska, Guam, and Hawaii---RIGHT?




John 3rd -> RE: Playtesting RA 6.0 (9/18/2013 10:03:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
Got input from two of the developers of RA to release 6.0 prior to JWE/Symon's ATA work being done. We shall do this. Need to do some fine-tuning and put together the specifics and outline of changes made.

Yes. I agree. Go for it. The A2A stuff will backfill nicely. Won't be gnarly.

Ciao. JWE


John

Will the ATA tweaks be able to be placed into an existing game or only a fresh starting one? Do you have a rough timeline once you get back?

John




Cpt Sherwood -> RE: Playtesting RA 6.0 (9/19/2013 2:06:18 AM)

Looked at scenario 50 you sent me as 6.0 complete

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cpt Sherwood

I see the J6M1 still has different 30mm guns for normal and extended range. not fixed

BB Washington and CL Helena still do not have float plane units assigned. fixed

Ship class Chamois #767 - Weapons slots 2 and 9 do not show up in game display. not fixed

Ship Class Le Fantasque #774 - Weapons slots 11 and 12 still do not show weapons in game display. not fixed


Corsairs not fixed? Or are they supposed to be worse than in DBB?




John 3rd -> RE: Playtesting RA 6.0 (9/19/2013 2:10:42 AM)

Am putting together a change list and just read this entire thread. Took a bit of time to say the least!

Sherwood:
1. I don't know anything regarding the aircraft side of this. J6M1'a armament is outside my pay grade. Does anyone know anything regarding this question?
2. I THOUGHT I fixed Chamois and Fantasque. Will look again.
3. The Corsairs conversation regarding its stats occurred over in Perfect War between FatR and Symon. To my knowledge those stats were changed based on their discussion. Could be totally wrong here (see Point 1)...

Checking Point TWO.




Cpt Sherwood -> RE: Playtesting RA 6.0 (9/19/2013 2:12:34 AM)

No changes in Allied bomber production were made.

I'll look at the perfect war thread, but if your are going to nerf Corsairs, I don't think I will play as Allies.

Well, I just looked at my version 5.5 copy and the F4Us were nerfed there too. It would have been nice if the mod design notes included the fact that the Allies will also be worse off than the historical scenarios. I guess this signals the end of my involvement in this mod.




John 3rd -> RE: Playtesting RA 6.0 (9/19/2013 2:30:27 AM)

Good lord...




John 3rd -> Chamois (9/19/2013 2:32:41 AM)

OK. Sherwood has spotted some weapon systems that don't show up on the actual ship but are listed in the devices. What could be wrong? Will Post a series of three screenshots to show what is happening:

Here is the device:


[image]local://upfiles/18041/7C04DF3494374DCEBC45C48ED9F8E12D.jpg[/image]




John 3rd -> Chamois Class (9/19/2013 2:34:32 AM)

Now to the class where the device clearly shows:


[image]local://upfiles/18041/F65B638BD9254690B361846E7E2FF15F.jpg[/image]




John 3rd -> Chamois Class (9/19/2013 2:38:23 AM)

Now here is the ship IN GAME and the device doesn't show. Same can be said for the 100MM gun on the stern.

What is the problem here?


[image]local://upfiles/18041/283377ECB17841DEA44FFB52647FBE98.jpg[/image]




John 3rd -> RE: Playtesting RA 6.0 (9/19/2013 2:46:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cpt Sherwood

No changes in Allied bomber production were made.

I'll look at the perfect war thread, but if your are going to nerf Corsairs, I don't think I will play as Allies.

Well, I just looked at my version 5.5 copy and the F4Us were nerfed there too. It would have been nice if the mod design notes included the fact that the Allies will also be worse off than the historical scenarios. I guess this signals the end of my involvement in this mod.


Michael made the Bomber changes this morning and those files were added. Are--if you are still talking here--you SURE there is no change? That is an easy fix but I don't now why it isn't there right now. We're about to have dinner so I'll have to look in a little while.

I don't know the ends and out of Corsair. It was an old discussion that I barely remember and it has been in the Mod for quite a while. This was a discussion that had a lot of back-and-forth but I don't remember the particulars. No one else has had any sort of issue with Corsair performance. How serious are the differences?

FatR: If you are reading this I could use your comments. All air modifications were made by the air side of the developers. I'm a navy man and worked on the Allied Naval side as well as ground units.




ny59giants -> RE: Playtesting RA 6.0 (9/19/2013 2:57:56 AM)

From latest files

[image]local://upfiles/15133/EC403B998CE64068A418B0F999529BB7.jpg[/image]




ny59giants -> RE: Playtesting RA 6.0 (9/19/2013 2:59:31 AM)

Next version

[image]local://upfiles/15133/EA962A68E8834D8B828C424F091D24D6.jpg[/image]




ny59giants -> RE: Playtesting RA 6.0 (9/19/2013 3:03:05 AM)

From Scenario 2

[image]local://upfiles/15133/4C0DD727D4D6475EA32340FC504B4389.jpg[/image]




ny59giants -> RE: Playtesting RA 6.0 (9/19/2013 3:05:32 AM)

From Scenario 2

[image]local://upfiles/15133/22B3DE8916A5441C94163B3DFF30FA71.jpg[/image]




Cpt Sherwood -> RE: Playtesting RA 6.0 (9/19/2013 3:06:42 AM)

I have looked again, the bomber changes are not done.

TF 474 still exists.

The worst part of the Corsairs being worse than either stock or DBB is that there is no mention that they have been changed. Now I wonder what other things have been changed to make the Allied position worse? I don't have time to look at every device, aircraft, ship, LCU, etc to find out.

That said, my choice is to forget playing this mod since I don't have the time to look at every thing and it seems the development team didn't even keep records of what they did or are unwilling to divulge them.




Cpt Sherwood -> RE: Playtesting RA 6.0 (9/19/2013 3:08:41 AM)

ny59giants, all of the Corsair models lost 3 durability and 2 from all maneuver bands.




ny59giants -> RE: Playtesting RA 6.0 (9/19/2013 3:10:00 AM)

I see a decrease in maneuver bands below 31k for the Corsairs in RA, but an increase above 32k. Is that what Sherwood is seeing??

The bomber changes were done about 8 hours ago. My version has them and I sent them to John.

On the changes to some of the stats for the Corsair, that is outside of what I've done which is just replacement and production numbers.




Cpt Sherwood -> RE: Playtesting RA 6.0 (9/19/2013 3:14:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I see a decrease in maneuver bands below 31k for the Corsairs in RA, but an increase above 32k. Is that what Sherwood is seeing??


I see a decrease of 2 in all bands. Stock and DBB at 32k have a maneuver of 14 and RA has a maneuver of 12.
don't forget the decrease of 3 in durability for all models.




witpqs -> RE: Playtesting RA 6.0 (9/19/2013 3:21:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I see a decrease in maneuver bands below 31k for the Corsairs in RA, but an increase above 32k. Is that what Sherwood is seeing??

That is not what is in the pics you just posted. Those pics also show a decrease of '2' above 32k.

I am stunned at the decrease in durability! Suddenly the corsairs were only as durable as the later model P-40s - what the heck was that all about? (Not implying that you know.)

quote:



The bomber changes were done about 8 hours ago. My version has them and I sent them to John.

On the changes to some of the stats for the Corsair, that is outside of what I've done which is just replacement and production numbers.





John 3rd -> RE: Playtesting RA 6.0 (9/19/2013 3:44:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cpt Sherwood

No changes in Allied bomber production were made.

I'll look at the perfect war thread, but if your are going to nerf Corsairs, I don't think I will play as Allies.

Well, I just looked at my version 5.5 copy and the F4Us were nerfed there too. It would have been nice if the mod design notes included the fact that the Allies will also be worse off than the historical scenarios. I guess this signals the end of my involvement in this mod.


Michael made the Bomber changes this morning and those files were added. Are--if you are still talking here--you SURE there is no change? That is an easy fix but I don't now why it isn't there right now. We're about to have dinner so I'll have to look in a little while.

I don't know the ends and out of Corsair. It was an old discussion that I barely remember and it has been in the Mod for quite a while. This was a discussion that had a lot of back-and-forth but I don't remember the particulars. No one else has had any sort of issue with Corsair performance. How serious are the differences?

FatR: If you are reading this I could use your comments. All air modifications were made by the air side of the developers. I'm a navy man and worked on the Allied Naval side as well as ground units.



Found my mistake with Michael's files. When he sent them I had already shifted everything into the Scenario 50 Slot. Stupid mistake. Will fix the number myself for bombers. Sorry about that...




John 3rd -> RE: Playtesting RA 6.0 (9/19/2013 3:47:07 AM)

Gentlemen:

Go through this discussion and I will run with whatever the consensus is. Like I said my knowledge base here is practically ZERO (no pun intended)...

Gonna fix those Bomber numbers!




John 3rd -> RE: Playtesting RA 6.0 (9/19/2013 3:57:38 AM)

FIXED:

Michael's Notes:
B24J increases would change monthly output from 65 to 73. Starts in 9/43 and goes to end.

B25J11 increased would change monthly output from 45 to 60. Starts in 9/44 and goes to end.

PBJ-1J increase would change monthly output from 20 to 30. Starts in 7/44 and goes to end.




John 3rd -> RE: Playtesting RA 6.0 (9/19/2013 4:03:43 AM)

My general directions is to always lean towards what John's Team has done in Da Babes. My .02...

My frustration level is pretty high. We're SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO close to being done with this I can taste it, however, I think I'm losing my patience and objectivity. Gonna go to bed, face the day at my Subway, and hit this fresh tomorrow.

Leave the Corsair discussion OPEN. Please comment and toss out good, CONSTRUCTIVE ideas. We'll listen...




Cpt Sherwood -> RE: Playtesting RA 6.0 (9/19/2013 4:20:50 AM)

I found this in an earlier RA thread( over 2 years ago):
[QUOTE]
So, the air changes.

Part 1, and probably the biggest: tweaks for more history-like balance.

Well, I have no overall complaints about the air combat model in AE, but I can't help to notice that a number of planes is considerably under/overmodelled, which is particularly easy to notice when they have a counterpart which was notably less successful in IRL.

A1)The biggest offender here, in terms of overall importance to the war, is Hellcat. RL: the most successful fighter of the Pacific war, with over two times as many claims as any other Allied fighter, despite debuting in combat significantly later than Corsairs and Lightnings, and better claim-to-loss ratio than other major contenders. AE: Allied players only ever use Hellcats at all because they have no control over production. Corsairs are superior in literally every way past 43/10 (F4U-1A has slightly worse ceiling, but this only matters against A6M5/A6M5b/A6M8, other Japanese aircraft of the period either are better than both or worse than both; on later models Corsair becomes an altitude demon as well). Even the initial F4U-1 model only lacks in service rating and not being carrier-capable, otherwise it is better than F6F-3. Hellcat is also the weakest third-generation Allied fighter in general and does not stack well against, say, Shiden.

Solution: +2 MVR across the board to all Hellcat versions. Durability 34 to all Hellcats. -2 MVR acrosss the board to all Corsair versions. Durability 32 to all Corsairs (not only Hellcat, AFAIK, simply carried more armor, better handling in the air = better chances to retain control and survive if the plane gets damaged).
As a consolation prise, F4U-1D and F4U-4 will get to carry 3x1000 lb bombs, to reflect their prominence and superior practical payload in ground attack role (this is a bit of a stretch, but as AE generally gives maximum possible payloads anyway, pretty close to normal RL capabilities).


A2)Hurricane IIa/b/c. RL: probably the worst second-generation Allied fighter in the theatre. AE: probably the best. See this thread, for example:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2756276

Solution: DUR -1 acrosss the board, MVR -2 at low altitudes and -3/-4 at high altitudes across the board. As Scen 70 features a reduction in experience for IJNAF pilots, this should not be too unfair to the Allies... Oh, and armor on IId fighter-bomber version should be reduced to 1. Only the most protected aircraft have 2, it wasn't one of them.


J1)Ki-49 Donryu sure rocks, beginning from IIa model. There is a strong argument, to which I personally subscribe, that you should build it for the entire war, never using Ki-67s except as torpedo bombers. One must wonder, why IRL this plane never managed to replace the obsolete Ki-21.

Solution: Reduce Ki-49 payload to 3x250 kg bombs in all versions. Historically the main complaint about this plane was its underpoweredness, i.e., inability to operate satisfactorily with normal load. Its effective practical load was stated to be below that of Ki-21. Add armor to Ki-21-IIb, because better fuel tank protection and pilot armor was, in fact, installed on all and nearly all, respectively, planes of this modification. Shift Ki-21-IIb production date to 42/8. I'm not sure about this date, actually, because all sources I've found state that this model was put into production somewhere in 1942... This is just so that late availability of Ki-21-IIb won't be too much of an argument for Ki-49.


Now when easy things are out of the way... to the most interesting part, IJAAF fighters. But this will have to wait for my next post. [/QUOTE]

My biggest problem is that this is about the only place it is stated. Anyone starting a new game and visiting the mod website would never know this.

These changes seem to be fatRs only. They never got put into DBB. Symon might be advocating a change in a number of aircraft, and that would be fine as long as there is some documentation.




witpqs -> RE: Playtesting RA 6.0 (9/19/2013 4:40:52 AM)

I also think the reasoning concerning the Hellcat and Corsair is very poor. I know less about the issues stated in sections A2 and J1. But if they are like that in A1 then it looks like the changes were guesses based on the overall outcomes without analysis of the details. In other words the 'why' to the outcomes stated might be other than that the planes' stats were off.




Symon -> RE: Playtesting RA 6.0 (9/19/2013 1:59:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
OK. Sherwood has spotted some weapon systems that don't show up on the actual ship but are listed in the devices. What could be wrong? Will Post a series of three screenshots to show what is happening:

Here is the device:

After you add or change a device in the (ship) Class file, you have to go to the Ship file and update the ships that form that class. Click "Tools", "Set Ships", and look for "Update weapons from class" check box. Be careful and select only the Nation and Type you are updating from the drop-downs. Selecting universal can change a lot of things you might not want to change - low fuel, reduced 'sorties', stuff like that. [8D]

J




Symon -> RE: Playtesting RA 6.0 (9/19/2013 2:23:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
My general directions is to always lean towards what John's Team has done in Da Babes. My .02...

My frustration level is pretty high. We're SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO close to being done with this I can taste it, however, I think I'm losing my patience and objectivity. Gonna go to bed, face the day at my Subway, and hit this fresh tomorrow.

Leave the Corsair discussion OPEN. Please comment and toss out good, CONSTRUCTIVE ideas. We'll listen...

I would release it as it is. Here's why:

Our changes aren't to a lot of planes, so it's easy to backfill once it's done. And it's to a first-level data file so it should update into ongoing games with no hiccoughs.

Airplanes are so near and dear to people's hearts that any changes will set up howls from everybody; AFBs, JFBs, poedo hijackers from the BTR boards, everybody [;)] So, rational AE people will have to have a shot at it and a chance to see the primary source data and see how stuff fits together. Can't just say, "well, here it is !!" Think this will make people more comfortable with any new data. Still might not like it [;)] but at least it will be understandable and apply to both sides consistently. Getting ready to put some stuff up on the airplane thread. That's a fairly good place to have the games begin and you can watch the process and the carnage and get a better idea of just exactly what's being done (and what's not being done) [:D]

J




John 3rd -> RE: Playtesting RA 6.0 (9/19/2013 2:45:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cpt Sherwood

I found this in an earlier RA thread( over 2 years ago):
[QUOTE]
So, the air changes.

Part 1, and probably the biggest: tweaks for more history-like balance.

Well, I have no overall complaints about the air combat model in AE, but I can't help to notice that a number of planes is considerably under/overmodelled, which is particularly easy to notice when they have a counterpart which was notably less successful in IRL.

A1)The biggest offender here, in terms of overall importance to the war, is Hellcat. RL: the most successful fighter of the Pacific war, with over two times as many claims as any other Allied fighter, despite debuting in combat significantly later than Corsairs and Lightnings, and better claim-to-loss ratio than other major contenders. AE: Allied players only ever use Hellcats at all because they have no control over production. Corsairs are superior in literally every way past 43/10 (F4U-1A has slightly worse ceiling, but this only matters against A6M5/A6M5b/A6M8, other Japanese aircraft of the period either are better than both or worse than both; on later models Corsair becomes an altitude demon as well). Even the initial F4U-1 model only lacks in service rating and not being carrier-capable, otherwise it is better than F6F-3. Hellcat is also the weakest third-generation Allied fighter in general and does not stack well against, say, Shiden.

Solution: +2 MVR across the board to all Hellcat versions. Durability 34 to all Hellcats. -2 MVR acrosss the board to all Corsair versions. Durability 32 to all Corsairs (not only Hellcat, AFAIK, simply carried more armor, better handling in the air = better chances to retain control and survive if the plane gets damaged).
As a consolation prise, F4U-1D and F4U-4 will get to carry 3x1000 lb bombs, to reflect their prominence and superior practical payload in ground attack role (this is a bit of a stretch, but as AE generally gives maximum possible payloads anyway, pretty close to normal RL capabilities).


A2)Hurricane IIa/b/c. RL: probably the worst second-generation Allied fighter in the theatre. AE: probably the best. See this thread, for example:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2756276

Solution: DUR -1 acrosss the board, MVR -2 at low altitudes and -3/-4 at high altitudes across the board. As Scen 70 features a reduction in experience for IJNAF pilots, this should not be too unfair to the Allies... Oh, and armor on IId fighter-bomber version should be reduced to 1. Only the most protected aircraft have 2, it wasn't one of them.


J1)Ki-49 Donryu sure rocks, beginning from IIa model. There is a strong argument, to which I personally subscribe, that you should build it for the entire war, never using Ki-67s except as torpedo bombers. One must wonder, why IRL this plane never managed to replace the obsolete Ki-21.

Solution: Reduce Ki-49 payload to 3x250 kg bombs in all versions. Historically the main complaint about this plane was its underpoweredness, i.e., inability to operate satisfactorily with normal load. Its effective practical load was stated to be below that of Ki-21. Add armor to Ki-21-IIb, because better fuel tank protection and pilot armor was, in fact, installed on all and nearly all, respectively, planes of this modification. Shift Ki-21-IIb production date to 42/8. I'm not sure about this date, actually, because all sources I've found state that this model was put into production somewhere in 1942... This is just so that late availability of Ki-21-IIb won't be too much of an argument for Ki-49.


Now when easy things are out of the way... to the most interesting part, IJAAF fighters. But this will have to wait for my next post. [/QUOTE]

My biggest problem is that this is about the only place it is stated. Anyone starting a new game and visiting the mod website would never know this.

These changes seem to be fatRs only. They never got put into DBB. Symon might be advocating a change in a number of aircraft, and that would be fine as long as there is some documentation.


WHERE did you find this? This must have been WAAAAAY back at the beginning. Cannot believe it has been two years! Does it help and/or explain the work?

Hellcat is better and Corsair is slightly worse.

Want opinions on this...




John 3rd -> RE: Playtesting RA 6.0 (9/19/2013 2:48:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
My general directions is to always lean towards what John's Team has done in Da Babes. My .02...

My frustration level is pretty high. We're SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO close to being done with this I can taste it, however, I think I'm losing my patience and objectivity. Gonna go to bed, face the day at my Subway, and hit this fresh tomorrow.

Leave the Corsair discussion OPEN. Please comment and toss out good, CONSTRUCTIVE ideas. We'll listen...

I would release it as it is. Here's why:

Our changes aren't to a lot of planes, so it's easy to backfill once it's done. And it's to a first-level data file so it should update into ongoing games with no hiccoughs.

Airplanes are so near and dear to people's hearts that any changes will set up howls from everybody; AFBs, JFBs, poedo hijackers from the BTR boards, everybody [;)] So, rational AE people will have to have a shot at it and a chance to see the primary source data and see how stuff fits together. Can't just say, "well, here it is !!" Think this will make people more comfortable with any new data. Still might not like it [;)] but at least it will be understandable and apply to both sides consistently. Getting ready to put some stuff up on the airplane thread. That's a fairly good place to have the games begin and you can watch the process and the carnage and get a better idea of just exactly what's being done (and what's not being done) [:D]

J



OK. John is right. If his ATA model can be placed into existing games then we have a working situation for RA 6.0. We get this issue settled (Corsair and Hellcat), I want to add a cancelled Alaska-Class vessel, and have Michael take a look at the revisions.

Need a name for the Alaska...ANYONE?




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