The quality of the map/screenshots (Full Version)

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Maesphil74 -> The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 1:55:55 PM)

Hi,

In light of this thread:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3417391

3 Questions to devs/matrix:
1/ Does the game out of the box really look like post 4-5-6 of that thread?
2/ Does one need to download 'custom layers' to have the game look like the beta AAR's + trailer + video's?
3/If 1+2 affirmative: Why isn't this noted in the video/screenshot/other information?

I would say this could be considered as misleading advertising if 1 and 2 are correct.

Bummer: I really liked the look of this game in the beta AAR's and videos [:(]

cheers.



Primarchx -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 2:06:17 PM)

In my experience you can see a bit of blurring and lines at EXTREME MAGNIFICATION. Such magnification is usually only used in certain manual operations.



gexmex -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 2:08:02 PM)

Would zooming in on the great lakes constitute extreme magnification? Or are they relatively clear and usable in the editor?



Primarchx -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 2:10:27 PM)

I'm pretty sure the Great Lakes aren't modeled as bodies of water at this time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: gexmex

Would zooming in on the great lakes constitute extreme magnification? Or are they relatively clear and usable in the editor?




Maesphil74 -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 2:15:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

In my experience you can see a bit of blurring and lines at EXTREME MAGNIFICATION. Such magnification is usually only used in certain manual operations.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3392507

So this is not the vanilla game?
How do you make the game look like this then?
(iso the quality in the post 4-5-6 from the quoted thread)



mikmykWS -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 2:16:09 PM)

Turn on the relief layer.

Mike



Dimitris -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 2:17:20 PM)

The screenshots on the thread you linked are all taken with the stock relief layer available in the game (Main menu -> Map Settings -> Relief).



Jakob Wedman -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 2:20:29 PM)

You can sail on those parts that are below the level of the ocean:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Great_Lakes.svg



Maesphil74 -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 2:21:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

The screenshots on the thread you linked are all taken with the stock relief layer available in the game (Main menu -> Map Settings -> Relief).

Thanks for clearing this up.


edit: problem still persists with Phoenix in that other thread....he's stating the quality is still bad with the relief layer on.

So my 1/ and 2/ questions: yes or no??





mikmykWS -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 2:27:00 PM)

When you zoom down to the level he's at there could be an issue but given the scope of the game you'd rarely zoom in so close as you 'd have to mouse over a lot.



gexmex -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 2:31:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jakob Wedman

You can sail on those parts that are below the level of the ocean:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Great_Lakes.svg


Bummer :( I figured they were large enough bodies of water to be usable. Oh well.



Maesphil74 -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 2:32:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

When you zoom down to the level he's at there could be an issue but given the scope of the game you'd rarely zoom in so close as you 'd have to mouse over a lot.

Are you a politician? [:)]

I'll rephrase my questions.
So the game looks like post 4-5-6 in that other thread when zoomed in?
The screenshots in the AAR never were taken at that zoom level ?
Why not?


I'm still on the fence and was starting to think I might give this a shot(have been reading the manual+watching the review) but this I don't really like.
From the out of eight review: in that first scenario he plays (India--China) don't you need to zoom in a lot to avoid the clutter with all bogeys?

Not meaning to be harsh here. just trying to sort this out before deciding: Is that guy (phoenix) doing something wrong with his settings or is that really how the game looks?

thanks



Dimitris -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 2:33:16 PM)

quote:


2/ Does one need to download 'custom layers' to have the game look like the beta AAR's + trailer + video's?

Please provide links to the AARs, trailers and videos you have in mind and we'll tell you if any external layers were used on them.

Thanks!



Maesphil74 -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 2:36:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

quote:


2/ Does one need to download 'custom layers' to have the game look like the beta AAR's + trailer + video's?

Please provide links to the AARs, trailers and videos you have in mind and we'll tell you if any external layers were used on them.

Thanks!

Hi sunburn, I allready did that in the other thread:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3404912
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3392507

Problem it seems is that these are screenshots with either the added customs layers or taken zoomed out to avoid the bluriness experienced by Phoenix in his thread.
Either that or Phoenix is doing something really, really wrong.




Phoenix100 -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 2:38:04 PM)

That's what this guy keeps asking - am I doing something wrong with my settings? I think I know the answer. The levels I'm zooming in to are not extreme at all. Please don't be misleading, Primarchx. They're where you need to be to distinguish different groups of objects (planes, for example). Especially when there's some action.

I posted examples of the Malvinas coastline with relief layers enabled (there's one below in case you missed them) - it's not an issue with relief layers. I would like an answer as to whether that's what it's meant to look like so that if it's not I can figure out what I'm doing wrong.



[image]local://upfiles/36260/0440E654992944888F7C360E261AD848.jpg[/image]

And if I'm not doing anything wrong - then what on earth is that mess in the image above? It has to be one of the worst graphics I've seen in this type of game. You cannot actually make out where the coastline is.



Dimitris -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 2:39:26 PM)

quote:


http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3404912
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3392507


No extra layers, this is all stock.

You mentioned trailers & videos. Which ones? Links please.




Phoenix100 -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 2:39:57 PM)

Surely one of you guys - sunburn, primarchx, mikmyk - can just boot up a vanilla copy, go to the Malvinas and take a photo at that level? Post it.



Maesphil74 -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 2:43:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

quote:


http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3404912
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3392507


No extra layers, this is all stock.

You mentioned trailers & videos. Which ones? Links please.




Your trailer you did in Youtube?
You really need the link? [X(]
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3417579
(you did know there was a trailer for this game, right [;)])

I just learned from Phoenix that indeed all screenshots are from ingame but zoomed out.

And when zoomed in the map in fact looks like the blurry screens in his thread in the help section.

It really looked very nice in those BETA threads.
Oh, well too bad.

PS: what is the 'customs layers' option then used for?

thanks again



Dimitris -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 2:47:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fleming
Your trailer you did in Youtube?
You really need the link? [X(]
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3417579
(you did know there was a trailer for this game, right [;)])


I did, but I wanted to make sure we were talking about the same video.

No extras on that one either, all stock map layers.



mikmykWS -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 2:47:36 PM)

We are not disagreeing with you on what things look like at full zoom but most scenarios don't require it or would be awkward to play that way. What you see in our movies and screenshots is the real deal.

Mike



Maesphil74 -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 2:48:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fleming
Your trailer you did in Youtube?
You really need the link? [X(]
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3417579
(you did know there was a trailer for this game, right [;)])


I did, but I wanted to make sure we were talking about the same video.

No extras on that one either, all stock map layers.



yes, that's what I allready learned from Phoenix.
All taken zoomed out to avoid the bluriness.

thanks



Dimitris -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 2:50:10 PM)

And on the cases where we have presented detailed airbase pictures etc. we have been very clear that this level of picture details is made available from custom image layers, imported by the player.



mikmykWS -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 2:51:37 PM)

You use the custom imagery to bring in layers from other sources such as satellite pictures of a an air base or a city.

So you grab the files with another source and then import them in and they will appear in the correct location as the appear.




Phoenix100 -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 2:56:18 PM)

So. Extreme close up. Here's an image fromthe tutorial showing some air action at a zoom level that makes the landscape look reasonable, relief layers (of course!) on. Close enough zoom to make out what's happening?

[image]local://upfiles/36260/F3ACB2210FA64E048D06A9BF8AD99378.jpg[/image]



Phoenix100 -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 2:57:48 PM)

Zoom in a bit to distinguish objects

[image]local://upfiles/36260/AFFDA938702E437DA52154F198516506.jpg[/image]

Notice the big tiling line across the bottom and the gorgeous detail.

As I keep saying - it's not how the game looked when people were trying to sell it. Am I doing something wrong?



Maesphil74 -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 2:57:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

We are not disagreeing with you on what things look like at full zoom but most scenarios don't require it or would be awkward to play that way. What you see in our movies and screenshots is the real deal.

Mike


One of your customers is not agreeing.
(see post 15)



Primarchx -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:00:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix

That's what this guy keeps asking - am I doing something wrong with my settings? I think I know the answer. The levels I'm zooming in to are not extreme at all. Please don't be misleading, Primarchx. They're where you need to be to distinguish different groups of objects (planes, for example). Especially when there's some action.

I posted examples of the Malvinas coastline with relief layers enabled (there's one below in case you missed them) - it's not an issue with relief layers. I would like an answer as to whether that's what it's meant to look like so that if it's not I can figure out what I'm doing wrong.



[image]local://upfiles/36260/0440E654992944888F7C360E261AD848.jpg[/image]

And if I'm not doing anything wrong - then what on earth is that mess in the image above? It has to be one of the worst graphics I've seen in this type of game. You cannot actually make out where the coastline is.


I don't think I am being misleading and you saying I am is simply your opinion. The image you posted is zoomed in substantially. The issue here, as I see it, is that at high mag the yellow land boundary lines are mixed up with the somewhat blurred land graphic. Yeah, that happens. I have yet to see where it's a big problem and when you're modeling the entire globe for a game, there may be a few inaccuracies involved at the tightest resolutions.

The true arbiter of the land/sea interface is the data block on the mouse tip. Use all the tools at your disposal. I also recall that the Devs have poured substantial time in MANUALLY cleaning up important bits of coastline where their open source data doesn't match up correctly. Can you imagine how tedious and time consuming that is?



Phoenix100 -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:00:41 PM)

deleted





jpkoester1 -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:04:54 PM)

From http://www.warfaresims.com/?cat=126

Detailed terrain: Command uses as its base terrain reference the Shuttle Radar Topography Mission (SRTM) dataset. This digital terrain model features a base resolution of 3 arc-seconds (~900m/cell at the equator), thus allowing for unprecedented terrain detail benefiting air, naval and land operations alike (LOS now actually matters). (I think this refers to the relief layer.)

AND

Command’s built-in map layers include a global “Blue Marble NG” tileset and a custom relief layer derived from our terrain elevation data. Pretty as they are, their true value lies in their tactical utility: Depth and elevation can be some of your best allies if you understand and use them properly, or your worst enemies if you ignore them. (Blue Marble NG has AFAIK a resultion of 500m and is the tileset used as standard)

Anyways, that's what's in the description of the game, and that's what's delivered (+ the possibility of adding custom overlays).

Surface area of the earth is approximately 510.072.000 square kilometers. At 500m resolution each square kilometer has on average 4 data points, that's about 2 billion data points total. Let's assume you want to take that down to 10m resolution. In that case 1 square kilometer would be 10.000 data points. That would be 5.100.720.000.000 data points or about 5 Terabyte of data (assuming 1 bype per data point and no compression). Even at 100m resulution you end up with ~51 billion data points (Again at 1 byte per data point that's 51 Gigabyte). I am sure you get the idea as to why that's impossible to include...

Cheers,
JP


Edit: someone correct me if my math is totally wrong
Edit2: Of course I know this could be compressed, but even if we assume everyone has large enough harddrives and enough bandwidth for the download it would still be a huge problem to get the hands on the data in the first place. Companies like google spend millions (if not billions) on generating data like that.



Phoenix100 -> RE: The quality of the map/screenshots (9/27/2013 3:06:51 PM)

Substantially or extremely? You said I was using extreme close ups. That was misleading, I feel - and, of course, that's my opinion. Take a look at the two shots above for how such a 'substantially zoomed in level' is useful, under normal circs.

And I can imagine how time consuming it is to have to try to get maps right, yes - the sort of effort that justifies paying 60 quid for a game.

But they would need to do a bit more work, I think. [;)]

But thanks for the answer. In other words - yes, all this is normal. Thanks. For me I would probably have bought this still - to see how the AI worked, at the very least - if I had known in advance that a normal, useful zomm level looked like the images I've posted. I don't care super-much for how the graphics are, if the game play is good. But I would still like to have known. Because I would have thought about it. Because that image of the Malvinas is really appalling.



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