RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (Full Version)

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hfarrish -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/1/2013 8:27:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

I think HQBU could be harnessed to work as a supply prioritization tool, but still being not overpowered. The same could apply to air drops. If someone could confirm to me if chaining is what I think it is, it could be easily prevented. I can then think of some ideas on how to implement that in .12. As I said I'm opposed to 300-mile raids into enemy territory at full speed resulting in great encirclements made in one turn. They are possible only because of week-long turns, shorter turns would not made them possible. If fixing that means making supply of panzers with expended MP in freshly conquered territory harder, then I would be happy to make them.


That sounds awesome...and to second others here, thanks for all the work. There is, I think, a big community primed to flock back to the game as changes like these are made (heck, I had to break down and return even beforehand...).



Joel Billings -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/1/2013 9:12:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

Any estimated date when the beta will be available? As there is no option to apply the new Blizzard rules for ongoing games, my opponent and I decided for restart with the new rules.


ETA is late this week or early next week assuming we don't run into any new issues. So far the few players testing it are not seeing any problems, but as I've said, there are only a few testers actively playing so we'd like to give it at least a few more days.



821Bobo -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/1/2013 9:25:31 PM)

Thank you Joel



carlkay58 -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/1/2013 10:43:09 PM)

As one of the testers, I will say that the increase in Axis SU usage is much larger than you would think just glancing at the list. We updated to the new test version in my Blitz is On! AAR on the first turn of MUD. It was kind of a shock to see that the elite Axis units with SUs attached could actually be reported as CV 2 or 3 (both IDs and PDs). And once SNOW hit it has been very hard to stop the Axis from going where it wants to go.

We are currently on TURN 23 and I have goofed with the code and managed to get the Mild Winter option turned on. It is much easier if you are playing the AI since you can change the settings at any time.

I have not played the new version from the first turn, but I would imagine that German I Corps is going to be more of a beast with all those SUs attached directly to the IDs actually working properly.



smokindave34 -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/1/2013 10:56:48 PM)

Thank you for your continued support of WITE!



Michael T -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/1/2013 11:04:59 PM)

On the face of it I like what I see here but you will still see Soviets running just beyond the leash of the Panzers for most of the summer and that is a blight on the game. SD at least provides some deterrent to that as a German SD win in April 42 becomes possible with the new blizzard option if the Reds run in the summer.

On HQBU, you can't remove it without a replacement system to prioritise supply.

I am a little concerned the blizzard might be toned down a little too much. But wait and see.



tm1 -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/2/2013 1:31:36 AM)

Thanks for the great work looking forward to this new patch.
But can some one tell me please what this "March madness Rule" actually is tried using the search to look it up but found nothing and since I play the AI im curious.
cheers
TM



Michael T -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/2/2013 2:58:29 AM)

@tm1

Previously, a fair while back, Axis units went from the blizzard reduced CV to full CV instantly March came along. That was called March Madness as the Axis could swing fully back on the offensive and some Soviets players suffered badly. So the devs implemented the current rules where Axis units in March suffer a CV penalty, but not as harsh as the blizzard.




heliodorus04 -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/2/2013 5:18:53 AM)

I look forward to trying out these new changes. It is pleasing to know the game is still getting tuned.
I'm probably one of the 90% who didn't abuse logistics and got hammered by blizzard/morale hard-coding issues.

I may be willing to play a human using these rules again.
Thanks to the team and community.



SigUp -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/2/2013 7:15:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T
On the face of it I like what I see here but you will still see Soviets running just beyond the leash of the Panzers for most of the summer and that is a blight on the game.

I don't know about that one. With the blizzard toned down perhaps inflicting losses on the Germans will be more important, as the Soviets won't get free multi-hundred miles advances during the blizzard. Running could set these players up for a terrible 1942. Of course whether this is really the case remains to be seen.



Flaviusx -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/2/2013 9:06:20 AM)

There will still be running in the south, I'm sure. But then, the idea of a forward defense in that area is a nonstarter given the usual 1st turn obliteration of SW Front. It cannot be otherwise until and unless the entire surprise turn is redesigned. The runaway down south is forced by a 1st turn opener that more or less recreates the losses of the historical Kiev pocket on a grossly accelerated timetable. If you want the Soviets to stand down south, then you must give them the means to do so.

It's always been possible to make a stand up north, particularly near Pskov, if the Soviet concentrates reserves in that area. The center is more iffy, but some folks recently have been able to make some pretty convincing stands around the landbridge. Maybe we'll see more such stands in the future.

It's a force to space ratio issue at bottom.



janh -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/2/2013 11:38:44 AM)

With the toned blizzard rules and the other important details Morvael pronounced it sounds like the 41-42 period is going to be pretty much a new game.

I for my part like the prospect of a chance to get stopped early, but without this already determing the whole game. This turns taking LG or MW into the bigger feats than there were so far on the one hand, but also renders getting stuck at Smolensk or well before Rostov not nearly as game-deciding. The chance to be able to fight out the blizzard and survive in good shape gives hope for a good 42 offensive and still turning a bad game around. I guess one may now expect a lot more competitive middle-grounds for the starting years of a grand campaign, and much fewer knock-out blows. It also sounds like running will be a thing of the past. More so than before territory might become dire for the Soviet, else he not be able to beat the clock before May 45, especially if the German player is also a skilled defender. With the better 41 SHC morale it now really makes a lot of sense to fight forward. Even ignoring houserules like the blitzpoints, interesting as they may be for H2H, Carl is proving that it makes sense to retain contact and counterattack during Barbarossa.

Hopefully the game will now be decided more often only in the long run. That's certainly bad news for those who only enjoy the phase of the astounding Axis offensive, but I think it will bring a lot more fun for those wanting the "whole experience".



gingerbread -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/2/2013 12:45:30 PM)

There is no better 41 SHC morale. There is worse 42 SHC morale and better 42 GHC morale.

The name of the game for the Soviets will be even more weighted towards preserving the ability to wage war by implementing a strict evacuation schedule and avoiding pocketing, the latter being squeezed by a synthetic line in the sand that must be held.



janh -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/2/2013 2:26:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread
There is no better 41 SHC morale. There is worse 42 SHC morale and better 42 GHC morale.

The name of the game for the Soviets will be even more weighted towards preserving the ability to wage war by implementing a strict evacuation schedule and avoiding pocketing, the latter being squeezed by a synthetic line in the sand that must be held.


SHC morale: Previous patches' bug fixes I thought of. The name of the game... will now also mean that they need to shape a situation more similar to that in history if they want to achieve similar blizzard success. It hopefully won't be an artificial effect anymore, but connected to the summer events. That may mean weakening the Axis as much as possible long before blizzard, and may mean luring them forward as late as possible.

However, much as hindsight does dictate the need for holding LG or for withdrawing from the poorly defensible terrain in the south for the Sov player, it may also dictate that an Axis player may need to consider stopping his offensives before 41's autumn mud and prepare for the winter, in which case the overextension, depletion and fatigue of the Wehrmacht units will likely not be as severe as it would be required for a spectacurlar blizzard. Or if close to sudden deatch VP count, he might try the last drive on Moscow, perhaps fail by a hex, and then be punished for pushing his forces beyond the limit. Déja vù?



morvael -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/2/2013 2:30:53 PM)

That was the goal of the fort modifier in new blizzard rules... they help in passive and active defense so are pretty useful. But you need to build those forts first.



wac29 -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/2/2013 4:07:21 PM)

Here are some tables of blizzard-modified CV

Assumptions:
Always defending
Defending in hex (not reserve)
Always blizzard (no snow)

So the columns indicate increasing fort level

The blizzard cv modifier gets to 100% quickly. This is in clear terrain.

It would seem these values will definitely end super strong Soviet blizzard offensives going on until March. In fact, I would expect some German offensives, at least starting in January (I know attacking blizzard-CV modifiers are lower) and from strong forts and terrain during the entire blizzard since these improve the blizzard cv modifiers in the attack.

Towns are much more important than before, especially the size 1 ones since the new rule effects aren't tied to size like before.

Another thing is these modifiers are leader independent.


Location North North North North
Terrain Clear Clear Clear Clear
Fort 0 1 2 3
Town? No town No town No town No town

December 52% 56% 60% 64%
January 68% 72% 76% 80%
February 84% 88% 92% 96%
March 100% 100% 100% 100%
April 100% 100% 100% 100%



Location Central Central Central Central
Terrain Clear Clear Clear Clear
Fort 0 1 2 3
Town? No town No town No town No town

December 56% 60% 64% 68%
January 72% 76% 80% 84%
February 88% 92% 96% 100%
March 100% 100% 100% 100%
April 100% 100% 100% 100%



Location South South South South
Terrain Clear Clear Clear Clear
Fort 0 1 2 3
Town? No town No town No town No town

December 60% 64% 68% 72%
January 76% 80% 84% 88%
February 92% 96% 100% 100%
March 100% 100% 100% 100%
April 100% 100% 100% 100%



wac29 -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/2/2013 4:17:20 PM)

Here are some tables of cv modifiers incorporating blizzard, terrain and fort effects

The forts and terrain add both to blizzard and overall CV multipliers.

So level 2 forts in clear terrain in the Northern weather area would produce a 180% CV modifier. A CV 8 division would have a modified CV of 14.4 (before fatigue and other effects). Level 3 forts would produce a 256% modifier instead of 240%.




Effective CV in December (not including other effects)

North
Base Blizzard in clear 52% 56% 60% 64%
Fort 0 1 2 3
Clear 52% 112% 180% 256%
Light woods 112% 180% 256% 340%


Central
Base Blizzard in clear 56% 60% 64% 68%
Fort 0 1 2 3
Clear 56% 120% 192% 272%
Light woods 120% 192% 272% 360%


South
Base Blizzard in clear 60% 64% 68% 72%
Fort 0 1 2 3
Clear 60% 128% 204% 288%
Light woods 128% 204% 288% 380%



morvael -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/2/2013 4:19:48 PM)

You cannot go over 100% with these modifiers.



wac29 -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/2/2013 4:20:48 PM)

Including terrain and forts you can.

If you have a division with a blizzard-only cv modifier of 50% but in a level 2 fort you would have an effective modifier of 0.5*3 = 150% of the base.



morvael -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/2/2013 4:24:03 PM)

If you mean normal terrain and fort multipliers then yes, it was always so. New blizzard score will never give bonus to cv, 100% is max.



SigUp -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/2/2013 4:27:32 PM)

I think wac means the normal doubling of defensive CV in light woods for example. Not as additional blizzard alleviating bonus.



wac29 -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/2/2013 4:29:49 PM)

Indeed. This is reflected in my first post on this. The modifiers cap out at 100%

The second post was to try and give a feel for the combined effect of terrain and forts because they both effect the blizzard modifier too, unlike before where some terrain only helped with preventing morale loss and avoiding attrition(as regards to blizzard effects)



rmonical -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/3/2013 3:24:40 PM)

quote:

22. Fixed many bugs causing leader rolls to fail for support units.

How will this impact the Soviet player who builds 3 sapper regiments per Army? Will they be even more effective? I can see this and the Soviet ability to build unlimited support units having an impact.



morvael -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/3/2013 3:46:50 PM)

Support units attached to HQs were only partially less effective. This fix mostly affects support units attached to combat units and cities, which were completely ineffective.



jayemcee555 -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/3/2013 6:44:56 PM)

So,I'm having trouble understanding the new blizzard set-up...looking for some clarification.The "RBE" option is in addition to the Mitigation of 1st winter rules? eg in a size 4 town the highest manpower unit will have improved CV as well as less damage?
A town which is in forest or rough terrain will still get the defensive bonus? or only the improved CV.
On the face of it,this looks like a good update as I found blizzard to be daunting,to say the least(as an Axis player)



morvael -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/3/2013 7:28:37 PM)

Yes, most of the first winter rules are not touched by RBE, only CV modifiers, and the combat morale drop. The cities are pretty good strongpoints, the problem is they can be cut off, so a good defensive line must consist of as many strongpoints as possible, with just perhaps a single weaker hex between them (which can be counterattacked).



Joel Billings -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/4/2013 1:29:04 AM)

Matrix hopes to get this patch uploaded as a public beta tomorrow (Friday).



darbycmcd -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/4/2013 3:39:00 AM)

Just to be clear, can we update ongoing games with the more gentle blizzard option?



rmonical -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/4/2013 3:54:42 AM)

quote:

Support units attached to HQs were only partially less effective. This fix mostly affects support units attached to combat units and cities, which were completely ineffective.


Ugh - so it helps the Germans in 1941 but after the Russians start building corps then it helps them because they can attach three combat SUs to every corps (one of which should be a sapper regiment) because they can build unlimited SUs for almost no APs.

As you say - an interesting fix.



morvael -> RE: Changes in the next public beta now in test (10/4/2013 6:33:19 AM)

Yes, initially this favours the German side, in late war the Soviets (in my own PBEM I have 1 million men in support units). It will be interesting to see if now those heavy tank battalions really give boost to German divisions, both CV- and fire-wise.



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