Air combat casualties realistic? (Full Version)

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mannerheim4 -> Air combat casualties realistic? (10/20/2013 5:46:25 PM)

I've played the Smolensk game a half dozen times and have seen an online game play of the first part of the Russian campaign and am convinced that the airpower losses in the game are too low. The first turn, of course, the Russians suffer quite a few losses, but after that, the second turn and on, the Russians hardly suffer any air casualties. Bombing airfields is worthless. Even with 200 plane attacks, all fighters, mix bombers, whatever, there is usually a 5 plane loss. When I look at the historical losses and compare them to the game, they don't seem in line with each other. Any comments on this?



mannerheim4 -> RE: Air combat casualties realistic? (10/20/2013 7:34:07 PM)

Here is an example...

First five days of July 41, Luftflotte 2 destroyed 353 Soviet aircraft, while losing 41 aircraft and 12 damaged. On July 5, level bombers of 111/KG-2 and KG-3 destroyed 183 aircraft on the ground.

I don't see how it is possible to come anywhere close to duplicating this historical situation in the game. I think there is some serious need to look at the air combat procedures in this game.




Oberst_Klink -> RE: Air combat casualties realistic? (10/20/2013 7:40:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mannerheim4

Here is an example...

First five days of July 41, Luftflotte 2 destroyed 353 Soviet aircraft, while losing 41 aircraft and 12 damaged. On July 5, level bombers of 111/KG-2 and KG-3 destroyed 183 aircraft on the ground.

I don't see how it is possible to come anywhere close to duplicating this historical situation in the game. I think there is some serious need to look at the air combat procedures in this game.



Well... more info is needed, e.g. what's the flying percentage? Which version are you using, 1.07.11 beta? Historic achievements are one thing, replicating it 1-to-1 with any game a different one. If that would be the case, it wouldn't be much 'fun' playing without the uncertainties. no?

Klink, Oberst



heliodorus04 -> RE: Air combat casualties realistic? (10/20/2013 10:12:34 PM)

Assuming you are a new player, allow me to gently note that it's rather well-known that the WitE air model leaves a lot to be desired in a number of areas. For example, in grand campaign play, it is possible for the Red Air Force to simply grind the Luftwaffe down to fewer than 100 fighters by the start of October/November just by spam bombing Luftwaffe airfields each turn. Red Army losses will be enormous, but once the Luftwaffe is gone, who cares? It's well-known enough that it's an accepted 'house rule' of grand campaigns that Soviet bombing (of both airfields, and also HQs in an effort to kill Germany's generals disproportionate to history) is not allowed/heavily limited.

There's too much complexity in that aspect of the code to try an overhaul (or I think that was the case), and from what I have heard, War in the West (and future games of this scope) are already benefiting greatly from the lessons learned via WitE. It's not an ideal answer, I know, but I hope it provides some insight.



Gabriel B. -> RE: Air combat casualties realistic? (10/20/2013 10:44:20 PM)

Push intercept and excort really high .

use also the AA guns.

motorised divisions - flak company
panzer corps : SP flak batalion
armee corps : mixed flak batalion
panzer army : 1 mixed, 2 mot flak batalions.
infantry army : 1 mixed, 2 mot flak batalions.


I got some 9000 soviet aircraft before the mud that way.



heliodorus04 -> RE: Air combat casualties realistic? (10/21/2013 4:51:27 AM)

You definitely do not want to (as Germany) waste assets bombing airfields after Turn 1. The kill ratio is better maintained by interception settings being very high.

The caveat to airfield bombing is that you should bomb if you have a chance of overrunning an airfield. Damaged aircraft are much more likely to become destroyed during over=run.



Tazak -> RE: Air combat casualties realistic? (10/21/2013 4:21:58 PM)

a while ago someone did post a very good example of how to max aircraft kills on turn 1 but I cant remember the link, and one of the patches tried to make airfield bombing post turn 1 hurt the attacker so don't bother bombing turn 2 onwards.

For the first turn, turn off ground attack support but set your interception up high (I do 150), set your % to fly down low (I do 5%). Do not bomb airfield first, carry out ground attacks as this ensures that the red airforce sends in aircraft to support the ground attacks but get chewed up by your fighters. Then before you overrun stacks with airfields carry out 2-3 airfield attacks.
Rinse and repeat until all ground attacks are complete, then focus on bombing airfields for the rest of turn 1.

Turn 2 onwards turn on ground attack support and carry on as normal other than do NOT bomb airfields turn 2 onwards as you will lose more aircraft.

It is still possible in the GC to kill near 3000 aircraft on the first turn for less then 200 losses as the germans, post turn 2 however its not worthwhile to bomb airfields.

While ground combat is morale based - earned from winning land battles, aircombat is more based around experience - earned from air kills (ground kills might count but not 100% sure)



mannerheim4 -> RE: Air combat casualties realistic? (10/22/2013 12:40:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink


quote:

ORIGINAL: mannerheim4

Here is an example...

First five days of July 41, Luftflotte 2 destroyed 353 Soviet aircraft, while losing 41 aircraft and 12 damaged. On July 5, level bombers of 111/KG-2 and KG-3 destroyed 183 aircraft on the ground.

I don't see how it is possible to come anywhere close to duplicating this historical situation in the game. I think there is some serious need to look at the air combat procedures in this game.



Well... more info is needed, e.g. what's the flying percentage? Which version are you using, 1.07.11 beta? Historic achievements are one thing, replicating it 1-to-1 with any game a different one. If that would be the case, it wouldn't be much 'fun' playing without the uncertainties. no?

Klink, Oberst

quote:



Visit the Gefechtsstand!


Thanks for your response.

I have tried a variety of percentages. For flying, I am using 25% or less. I have tried setting air interception very high, 200%. I have manually set up bombing runs on airfields with over 200 planes as the first attack on turn 2, and I have destroyed 5 fighters... I am using the newest update.

Oberst Klink, I have been playing wargames for nearly 40 years, and I never expect to "replicate" losses. However, I do expect to see similar loss ratios. After turn one, I am seeing a roughly 2-1 loss rate, Soviets to Germans. This just doesn't seem historical at all, given the inexperience of the Soviet pilots in the first few months of the war and the loss of command/control and shortages of everything under the sun.

If you have any other suggestions, feel free to mention them...



mannerheim4 -> RE: Air combat casualties realistic? (10/22/2013 12:49:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Assuming you are a new player, allow me to gently note that it's rather well-known that the WitE air model leaves a lot to be desired in a number of areas. For example, in grand campaign play, it is possible for the Red Air Force to simply grind the Luftwaffe down to fewer than 100 fighters by the start of October/November just by spam bombing Luftwaffe airfields each turn. Red Army losses will be enormous, but once the Luftwaffe is gone, who cares? It's well-known enough that it's an accepted 'house rule' of grand campaigns that Soviet bombing (of both airfields, and also HQs in an effort to kill Germany's generals disproportionate to history) is not allowed/heavily limited.

There's too much complexity in that aspect of the code to try an overhaul (or I think that was the case), and from what I have heard, War in the West (and future games of this scope) are already benefiting greatly from the lessons learned via WitE. It's not an ideal answer, I know, but I hope it provides some insight.


Well, I am not too upset with the model in of itself if you mean the mechanics (I'm a newbie to this particular game, but have been playing wargames for a long time). I think the combat resolution is terribly inaccurate. I don't mind the mechanics, just the results! It is sad that "house rules" must be implemented, which tells me that the designers need to go back to the drawing board. Yes, there is a lot of complexity, but I think it would not be too difficult to change a few of the model "modifiers" that would enable the Luftwaffe to show its true superiority during the first year or two of the war. Certainly, the Russians could gain local superiority, as around Smolensk for a limited time. Perhaps a look at adding some sort of manueverabliity rating. Morale/training should play a much larger role in the use of airpower. (than in ground combat). Command control should play a larger beneficial role. These are all items that could be looked at to change the scales a bit. Everything I have read points to the Luftwaffe being much more devastating then the game shows, which, unfortunately, ruins the overall game's appeal as a strategic simulation - since the Germans have really lost a major elemental advantage.

Thanks again for your reply



mannerheim4 -> RE: Air combat casualties realistic? (10/22/2013 12:53:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

Push intercept and excort really high .

use also the AA guns.

motorised divisions - flak company
panzer corps : SP flak batalion
armee corps : mixed flak batalion
panzer army : 1 mixed, 2 mot flak batalions.
infantry army : 1 mixed, 2 mot flak batalions.


I got some 9000 soviet aircraft before the mud that way.


Thanks for the advice. I had the intercept at 200, I think the escort for interdiction is 100. I'll look at the escort numbers.

The AA factor regarding SU's will help somewhat.

All of this, unfortunately, does little when one bombs airfields, whether with massed fighter sweeps or with conventional bomber/fighter mixes (with over 200 planes)

Regards



mannerheim4 -> RE: Air combat casualties realistic? (10/22/2013 12:57:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tazak

a while ago someone did post a very good example of how to max aircraft kills on turn 1 but I cant remember the link, and one of the patches tried to make airfield bombing post turn 1 hurt the attacker so don't bother bombing turn 2 onwards.

For the first turn, turn off ground attack support but set your interception up high (I do 150), set your % to fly down low (I do 5%). Do not bomb airfield first, carry out ground attacks as this ensures that the red airforce sends in aircraft to support the ground attacks but get chewed up by your fighters. Then before you overrun stacks with airfields carry out 2-3 airfield attacks.
Rinse and repeat until all ground attacks are complete, then focus on bombing airfields for the rest of turn 1.

Turn 2 onwards turn on ground attack support and carry on as normal other than do NOT bomb airfields turn 2 onwards as you will lose more aircraft.

It is still possible in the GC to kill near 3000 aircraft on the first turn for less then 200 losses as the germans, post turn 2 however its not worthwhile to bomb airfields.

While ground combat is morale based - earned from winning land battles, aircombat is more based around experience - earned from air kills (ground kills might count but not 100% sure)


Not worthwhile to bomb airfields. Yes, I noticed that and wonder why that remains the case, considering the Germans were bombing Soviet airfields into July and August. It is clear that there is some overwhelming modifier being implemented on turn one. Perhaps a smaller modifier can continue as time moves on? I suppose that would be the easiest fix. One must remember that the Soviet Airforce was crushed during Barbarossa, and not just day one. So whatever modifier is used on day one to rack up the kills should be continued, to a lesser degree, perhaps slowly coming to parity by 1943.

Regards



Gabriel B. -> RE: Air combat casualties realistic? (10/22/2013 6:26:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mannerheim4


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

Push intercept and excort really high .

use also the AA guns.

motorised divisions - flak company
panzer corps : SP flak batalion
armee corps : mixed flak batalion
panzer army : 1 mixed, 2 mot flak batalions.
infantry army : 1 mixed, 2 mot flak batalions.


I got some 9000 soviet aircraft before the mud that way.


Thanks for the advice. I had the intercept at 200, I think the escort for interdiction is 100. I'll look at the escort numbers.

The AA factor regarding SU's will help somewhat.

All of this, unfortunately, does little when one bombs airfields, whether with massed fighter sweeps or with conventional bomber/fighter mixes (with over 200 planes)

Regards




yes I also had stoped bombing the airfields on turn 2 , however 6000 aircraft destroyed in 15 weeks is not bad.
turn 1 i had 3000 but that is not repeatable.






Brandle -> RE: Air combat casualties realistic? (10/22/2013 5:38:46 PM)

Has anyone ever seen a train bombed?



Gabriel B. -> RE: Air combat casualties realistic? (10/22/2013 9:26:33 PM)

I got one while trying to rail units out of Lvov.



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