RE: T70-T73 15 October – 12 November 1942 (Full Version)

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comte -> RE: T70-T73 15 October – 12 November 1942 (1/11/2015 6:00:35 PM)

Loki What is HQBU? I have seen this referenced in the WITW forums as well.



jwolf -> RE: T70-T73 15 October – 12 November 1942 (1/11/2015 7:49:52 PM)

HQBU = headquarters buildup, a way to stockpile fuel and supplies for panzer units.

Loki, how did you mask your units near Moscow in the screenshot?



charlie0311 -> RE: T70-T73 15 October – 12 November 1942 (1/11/2015 8:33:24 PM)

All you guys are really quite amazing..



loki100 -> RE: T70-T73 15 October – 12 November 1942 (1/12/2015 2:59:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Less HI and more ARM means even more drain on supplies. This is historical. Soviet soldiers went hungry in 41-42 but had a lot of ammo to fire from their guns. I think a reasonable balance will be between 190 and 200 HI evacuated and on occasion production will have to be slowed down to keep the armies supplied in next patch.


I have a book written by Fitzroy Maclean (Eastern Approaches), it starts in 1936 when he was a military attache (ie a spy) at the British Embassy in Moscow with a fascinating and chilling account of the show trials of Bukharin and some other leaders of Soviet Republics who had fallen foul of Stalin. When the war broke out he joined the British SOE and fought with Tito's partisans from 1943-5. There is a telling account of the Red Army in action in the battle for Belgrade. He notes that every truck moving up to the front had ammunition or spare parts (no food etc) and those moving back carried the wounded. In effect the Red Army was still living off the land, he notes that even Tito's troops were surprised at how little rear area support they had. Now it might have been a special instance as the Soviet incursion into Yugoslavia was more akin to a raid to secure 3rd Ukrainian's flank as they pushed into southern Hungary, but its indicative of the priorities they operated with.

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

You can scrap 80-90% of the Pe-2 and IL-4 LB regiments in the reserve. Fact is, you'll be hard pressed to properly supply your troops with more than 20 or so of those regiments in the field. Tac bombers will of course eat much less supply.


You probably are right, but I can't quite bring myself to do it. I'm using the Il-4 squadrons to convert to newer planes, such as the Tu-2s as you get a lot more bombs dropped for supply usage out of them, and its good to start with high morale. Also I think there are times when I want to do more than just hit the frontlines, so I'll keep the Pe-2s but use them sparingly

quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

All very nice, but where are your artillery divisions? Moscow and Volga can each hold two full Artillery Armies, but I don't think you have the AP to build quite that many. But some, like 9 div for one Army, is necessary to stay in colour when playing the Russians in WWII. Surely, you're not saving up AP to have a 30 or 40 Rifle Corps splash when the cost hit 10 AP in '43? That would be an example of putting the wagon in front of the horse.

I've never seen nor used a large number of 107mm AT units. They have a short span of availability so a couple of extra to get replacement guns could be warranted. They do have the capability to punch through the front of Panthers, the trick is to get them in a position to fire and hit.


the numbers and location of the artillery divisions is currently a state secret. But one reason for my recent scrapping of SUs has been to release the gun types they will use. I'm also making use of the ability to load a shock army up to 21 command points, so say 4*rifle corps (16), a division (for reserve activation), an artillery division and in 1943 one of the combat engineer brigades. For two of them, I've removed some of the front line formations in favour of even more artilley (really for taking the heaviest defended positions).

In addition, I've kept 3 airborne corps HQs so they can hold 4 artillery divisions each. As things are working out, I may even have a spare combined arms HQ (since I doubt I can cope with a much larger army till 1944), by the time I rationalise my formations (with the recent disbands I have a few combined arms army HQs with a lot of spare slots)

I've not really been able to save admin pts till recently, and then I decided that a fast campaign of upgrading the VVS was a better approach, so the 1943 conversions can be done with the admin pts that arrive in 1943. I agree, I want artillery and I need it now.

Re the 107s, I'm not sure. I lost a couple of batteries in the summer battles, and its not easy to work out the impact (do like the WiTW reporting of losses etc). But I could do with something that will kill the better German tanks so these will do till the 85mm batteries and things like the SU-122 et al start to deploy.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aces8

Loki What is HQBU? I have seen this referenced in the WITW forums as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

HQBU = headquarters buildup, a way to stockpile fuel and supplies for panzer units.

Loki, how did you mask your units near Moscow in the screenshot?


as jwolf says, its a means to priotise some motorised units for supply. The supply depot and priority system in WiTW is far better, and would have solved so many of my current problems. I could put some Fronts on 0 (and hope they don't need to fight) others on 1 or 2 (ie a guess at the intensity of any defensive fighting) to feed supply etc into the formations I want to attack with.

Instead in WiTE you have a mechanism to override supply shortages, its mainly of use for the Germans in 1941 and its rather open to abuse. Although Morvael has improved it a bit in 1.08 its still a case that the supply fairy arrives bearing gifts and it has little impact on the supply available on other sections.

For the screenshot I just took one picture with units displayed and one with them hidden (its the left hand option on the map options) and then merged them. I like to keep the details of my rear units hidden, from looking at his recon patterns, I'm sure that SigUp knows there is something there, but not what. Equally in a few places, I'm hoping he does indeed spot what is there and reacts to the potential threat.

quote:

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

All you guys are really quite amazing..


[8D]



loki100 -> T74 - 13-19 November 1942 (1/13/2015 3:23:53 PM)

T74 - 13-19 November 1942: “Vespers ... are sweeter than Matin”

In the air, the return of winter saw no change to the dynamics of the last month. South of Moscow the Luftwaffe continued to hold complete air superiority and launch repeated raids on the VVS bases in that sector. They also launched a number of attacks on the lower Don, presumably in an attempt to disrupt the steady Soviet build up on that sector.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img538/8348/EleJfN.jpg[/image]

Stavka's response was pragmatic. Some units were rotated back to the Urals to regain morale and take on new planes and pilots. However, other units were fed into the maelstorm, quite simply it suited the Soviet high command for the best German fighters to be engaged well away from the focus of the opening Soviet blow.

When the plans for the second winter offensive were finalised, Vatutin could scarcely claim to have been surprised to find that Kalinin had been designated as his primary objective. Reclaiming this vital city, on the confluence of the Volga and Tveritsa, had been the goal of every offensive by North West Front since November 1941. This time though, Stavka planned an offensive drawing on both North Western and Leningrad Fronts as well as assets from Volkhov and Kalinin Front.

Long in the planning [1], the opening blow depended heavily on confusing the Germans as to the real focus. The opening stage was a sequence of night attacks by the U2s on known reserves and across the front line from Kalinin to Klin. This was followed by day light raids by well escorted Sturmoviks on the same targets.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img631/4315/HCRXpn.jpg[/image]

Both sides had grown used to the other and this pattern usually meant a ground offensive was planned. However, having indicated the centre of their attentions by the pattern of air-raids, the Soviet offensive opened on the flanks. Elements of 8 Army (Volkhov Front) and 21 Army (Kalinin Front) moved into contact as if they were the reconnaissance for a sustained attack [2]. With the German flanks fixed, the inexperienced 30 Army opened the offensive south of Klin. Attacking without air preparation, but with sufficient force to confuse the Germans, the attack was close to massacre as Soviet troops were quickly stalled by well dug in defensive lines and the prompt arrival of reserve formations from 42 Corps.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img910/8755/khEdYb.jpg[/image]

Even as the shattered divisions of 30 Army fell back (and their places in the old front line taken by 1 and 2 Shock Armies), 52 Army struck on the northern end of the Lama defensive line. Better led, combat experienced and supported by the VVS, this was far more dangerous to the Germans.

In reality Govorov's riflemen exceeded Stavka's expectations, and again pulled German reserves away from the centre.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img540/6673/u0bBv3.jpg[/image]

With both ends of the Lama defensive line engulfed in chaos, and Soviet bombers flying close tactical support, the real attack went in. 1st and 2nd Shock Armies of Leningrad Front struck the centre of the German line.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img673/6217/5n3TjL.jpg[/image]
(Katyushas opening 1 Shock Army's offensive)

42 Corps' reserves were already committed as nearly 600 tanks operating in close support for the riflemen and shells from over 3000 guns fell on their 106 Infantry Division [3].

Despite being badly outnumbered, and struggling to convince their command this was the real Soviet attack, the German infantry fought with incredible bravery, knocking out 38 tanks before the sheer power of the Soviet offensive overwhelmed them.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img537/2156/aP5SKz.jpg[/image]

Even as 1 and 2 Shock tried to breach the defensive works of the Lama positions, Vatutin's elite formations hit Kalinin. Endless study of the ground and German deployments had convinced him that the simplest way to recapture the city was to attack it directly using 3 Armies (4 Shock, 55 and 31). 55 Army had the advantage of attacking out of the old Soviet bridgehead over the Volga but the other two had to cross the river under fire.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img673/4729/MQ5tB7.jpg[/image]
(Elements of 4 Shock Army fighting for the Volga docks at Kalinin)

Over 4,000 guns (and the equivalent of 3 artillery divisions), plus earlier air bombardments had left 6 Corps' 294 Infantry Division shattered even before the main attack developed. With their reserves spent in the Lama battles, and their attention on sealing off the breakthrough by Leningrad Front, the German command failed to react and Kalinin fell with relative ease.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img911/426/fBOiVi.jpg[/image]

The evening of 18 November saw 55 Army's mountain divisions moving through the exhausted assault divisions and taking up hasty defensive positions on the edge of the city to face any German counter-attack.

For the first time since December 1941, the Red Army had retaken a major city. Now the challenge was to hold it as a springboard to further offensive operations.

In the meantime to the South, Soviet armour, cavalry and infantry formations started to take up positions. Some were real preparations for an attack, some designed to confuse, some were done with almost wilful disregard for camouflage, others made the best use of cover that could be managed.

Critical to Stavka's plans was for the Germans to remain unsure where the next blow would fall. This might trap their reserves away from the critical sector or open the possibility of new attacks if they weakened one sector in order to reinforce elsewhere.


[1] – I've been plotting variants of this since the Summer, the main degree of uncertainty was whether to start with this stage or try, as so often, to stretch the German lines elsewhere first.
[2] – or, more simply moved to place the German lines on the extreme flanks in zones of control so as to stop any lateral movement of reserves
[3] – I do love Artillery Divisions rather than relying on support units

and

[4] - sorry if this is a bit long winded but after being battered all summer, I rather enjoyed that turn [:)]



jwolf -> RE: T74 - 13-19 November 1942 (1/13/2015 3:37:49 PM)

quote:

sorry if this is a bit long winded but after being battered all summer, I rather enjoyed that turn


Perfectly understandable, and I don't blame you in the least! I'll bet SigUp was disappointed by that 2.03-1 battle.



loki100 -> RE: T74 - 13-19 November 1942 (1/13/2015 4:21:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

quote:

sorry if this is a bit long winded but after being battered all summer, I rather enjoyed that turn


Perfectly understandable, and I don't blame you in the least! I'll bet SigUp was disappointed by that 2.03-1 battle.


it took me by surprise too, it had been well bombed in advance, had lots of disrupted units, the ground support air did more damage, but it still added 25% to its combat value in the actual fighting. Looking at what happened on the flank (where they gained almost 40%), I presume that corps was well led in that it seems to have passed most of the leadership checks.

On my side Zakharov has 7 for admin, 5 for armour and 7 for infantry and Malinovski (who is control of the front has 6 admin, 5 and 7 for infantry, so I had stacked the odds as well as I could. But I was very glad I'd spent time and effort working out how to trigger SigUp's reserves ... though even at the worst, the attack that mattered was Kalinin.



loki100 -> T75 20 – 26 November 1942 (1/14/2015 8:42:15 PM)

T75 20 – 26 November 1942: “The dying need but little”

Although Kalinin had been on the frontline since the Germans had captured the city in October 1941, so far it been spared major damage. It had been originally captured with relatively limited fighting and since then had only been damaged by some air-raids and the exchange of mortar and artillery fire across the Volga.

By 26 November it lay in ruins, having changed hands twice in a matter of days.

The German response to their defeat was quick as the bulk of 40 Panzer Corps drove the Soviet mountain divisions from the city and they hastily set about fortifying the ruins.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img538/5388/wVdg5s.jpg[/image]

However, the weather had converted their offensive into a trap. Full winter conditions struck northern Russia early [1], and the Volga froze. Whereas a week ago, 4 Shock and 31 Armies had had to cross the open river (with the additional challenge of the first ice of winter), now they could attack over its frozen surface.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img911/2897/qBDwGi.jpg[/image]

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img901/281/tEkb6h.jpg[/image]

Even so, the offensive was developed methodically. The Germans had managed to block Leningrad Front on the Lama defensive line but had done so by concentrating their reserves where their fortification belt had been destroyed. To the south, 29 Army struck at 42 Infantry Corps in an attempt to draw off their reserves and 1 Shock and 52 Armies hit 5 Infantry Corps near Turginovo. Even the commitment of their reserve formations was not enough to stall the Soviet offensive.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img540/876/YxYR8D.jpg[/image]

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img673/5004/Glq7qQ.jpg[/image]
(Soviet armour refueling as they move up to the Lama)

With the German supporting units hit by sustained air attacks and artillery fire, North Western Front set about retaking Kalinin. The German armour proved to be ill suited to combat in the rubble strewn streets as Soviet riflemen again captured the city.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img673/6717/jH1n0C.jpg[/image]

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img673/1945/KEM1DR.jpg[/image]
(Elements of 4 Shock Army attacking Kalinin)

So far almost all the ground combat had been confined to 50 km running from Kalinin to the small town of Klin as the Soviets made yet another attempt to regain the Lama. German losses amounted to 25,000 men and 22 tanks while the Soviets had lost 78,000 men and 95 tanks. In the air the Luftwaffe maintained its strategy of hitting some airbases once or twice a day inflicting a further 118 losses on the VVS but lost 33 planes themselves.

In the air, both sides were running short of air reconnaissance planes as losses mounted. The lack of reliable intelligence made planning the next steps even more complex [2]. However, the sudden onset of winter offered the potential to radically change Stavka's original timetable. The frozen rivers of Central Russia were no barrier to either side launching a major offensive.

[1] – with random weather this is possible in November, and level 5 ice freezes minor rivers (8 for major ones). If we get another turn of blizzard then a lot of the map opens up (especially the Oka) much earlier than I had expected. I'm not really sure I want this to happen.
[2] - from a discussion as to why SigUp didn't spot my build up, in part its hard to gain good intelligence in poor terrain but he lacks the numbers of recon planes to really concentrate (I'm shooting down 11-13 per turn). I've a similar problem, plus my Pe-2r and SB-2r squadrons only slowly take on replacements so am reliant on the U2 recon planes (short range and not very useful).




loki100 -> T76 27 November – 2 December (1/17/2015 9:38:52 PM)

T76 27 November – 2 December: “Futile the Winds”

Late November saw a relaxation of the freezing cold and blizzards of the previous week [1].

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img910/91/8480Zd.jpg[/image]

Equally it saw a significant shift of focus on the battlefields. The Germans retook Kalinin and this time committed some of their best infantry divisions to defend the city.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img912/4266/zL6OxP.jpg[/image]
(the best I can manage is 90 attack cv, even with reserve commitment so given the extreme likelihood of German reserve activations there is no way could I risk an attack on Kalinin)

Stavka authorised the suspension of offensive operations. Despite this lull elements of Leningrad Front reached the Lama at the southern end of the Volga reservoir and the main assault formations remained near the front. It suited the Soviets to have the equivalent of 2 German armies pinned down north of Moscow.

In the air, the pattern of recent weeks continued. The Germans inflicted substantial losses to the south of Moscow and retained complete air superiority in the Ryazan-Tula sector [2]. However, north of Moscow the VVS exacted some revenge. Freed from the need to support ground operations, Soviet bombers hit the exposed German formations [3] and inflicted significant losses on Luftwaffe bases destroying a number of both fighters and German reconnaissance planes.

However, the decision to suspend the fighting at Kalinin did not mean a cessation of offensive activity. The next blow fell on the Tambov sector. In a repetition of previous tactics, considerable effort was made to disguise the true target and draw off German reserves

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img540/1992/SFy6JE.jpg[/image]
(also shows location of main German reserves, after my attacks)

Elements of the Don Front to the north and Stalingrad Front to the south launched significant attacks.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img540/3788/FBOCRH.jpg[/image]
Artillery of the Don Front in action

Almost all failed, but forced the Germans to re-act, and to everyone's surprise an attack by 5 and 12 Armies punched in the German lines to the immediate north of Tambov and Soviet forces were able to advance deep into the German defensive belt [4], pinning their reserves.

Once the attention of the Germans was drawn to their flanks, Tolbukhin's Voronezh Front struck their 29 Infantry Corps south of Tambov.

The opening blow saw 58 and 46 Armies hit their northern positions and the attempt by some Slovakian formations to intervene did little but increase their losses. With their front line broken, the tanks of 1 and 3 Tank Army, backed by the new Katyusha brigades completed the process of breaching their front line

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img538/8691/GxOlfX.jpg[/image]

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img537/7859/nKJhRW.jpg[/image]
KV1s of the new Mechanised Corps moving to the front

At this stage the Soviet forces became a little bit incautious, assuming the German reserves were spent. 2 Tank struck at the retreating 7th Infantry Division but ran into a SS formation redeploying from the fighting to the south. Although 2 Tank came close to breakthrough deep into the German rear, in the end, it became obvious that the Soviet tankers could not yet overcome the best of the German army in mobile warfare.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img904/7199/ozGXm6.jpg[/image]

Content, that he had done substantial damage to the German front lines, Tolbukhin pulled back the main assault formations. Whether the offensive would be renewed on this sector, or shift to a new angle of attack would depend on the German response [5], but increasingly each major offensive concentration was adding more and more artillery in an attempt to make up for weaknesses in front line manpower.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img661/7023/1xlY0q.jpg[/image]

The shift from the intensive infantry battles of Kalinin to the clash of armour was reflected in the relative losses. The Soviets lost 43,000 men, 300 tanks and 160 planes for German losses of 12,000 men, 10 tanks and 33 planes.

[1] – I'm actually rather pleased about this, while a significant part of my winter plans involve taking advantage of frozen rivers, I didn't fancy having the Oka frozen when my best units were fully committed elsewhere.
[2] – I can't manage any significant recon into this sector, between losses due to air interception and ground based flak its a death zone for my recon aircraft. The little I am managing, I am doing using U2 squadrons.
[3] – the difference between hitting units lacking fortifications (or at best level 1) and those well dug in?
[4] – My logic here is I have lots of manpower in the pool (around 1.2 million) that I can't use due to supply problems, so losses, as such, are not a concern. My NM is back to the 42/43 I've become used to, so I'm less worried that the -1 for a defeat is a permanent drop (which was the case in the summer) and my NM will go up to 47 in Jan 43 in any case. In effect, my one advantage is the number of formations I can field and this process of maskirovka attacks seems to be the way to exploit that. I'm aware that the Germans gain morale as a result, but my goal at this stage is to exhaust their best units, I'll worry about taking back ground in 1943.
[5] – I'm assuming that SigUp will run out of formations to plug the gaps before I run out of offensive formations. I still have 2 entire Fronts waiting for their chance. As I wreck his existing front line fortifications he'll need to ensure that he has more units filling the gaps (at least till he can rebuild his forts).

By 1943, with the higher morale (and more supply), I reckon I can push a lot of rifle divisions to 3 cv and line rifle corps to 10-12. At that stage I think I can start to exert pressure on multiple points. Hopefully, I can start to present the historical dilemma to the Germans, if they concentrate to really lash back, I can exploit the gaps, if they remain dispersed, they will struggle to do much more than hang onto increasingly fraying defensive lines.



jwolf -> RE: T76 27 November – 2 December (1/18/2015 1:04:07 PM)

quote:

By 1943, with the higher morale (and more supply), I reckon I can push a lot of rifle divisions to 3 cv and line rifle corps to 10-12. At that stage I think I can start to exert pressure on multiple points. Hopefully, I can start to present the historical dilemma to the Germans, if they concentrate to really lash back, I can exploit the gaps, if they remain dispersed, they will struggle to do much more than hang onto increasingly fraying defensive lines.


I think you are right -- but it will take time, maybe the entire 1943 summer campaign season. Of course your job would be easier if SigUp's forces suffered a defeat similar to the historical one at Kursk, but I suspect that SigUp's strategic management is better than Hitler's. [;)]

That one battle with AFV losses 100-0 must have been humiliating. You have proven, however, that you can crack a fortified line. The question is if you can keep up the pressure (not yet, but soon) faster than he can rebuild the forts.

Good luck with what looks like a brutal winter campaign.



loki100 -> RE: T76 27 November – 2 December (1/18/2015 1:26:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

quote:

By 1943, with the higher morale (and more supply), I reckon I can push a lot of rifle divisions to 3 cv and line rifle corps to 10-12. At that stage I think I can start to exert pressure on multiple points. Hopefully, I can start to present the historical dilemma to the Germans, if they concentrate to really lash back, I can exploit the gaps, if they remain dispersed, they will struggle to do much more than hang onto increasingly fraying defensive lines.


I think you are right -- but it will take time, maybe the entire 1943 summer campaign season. Of course your job would be easier if SigUp's forces suffered a defeat similar to the historical one at Kursk, but I suspect that SigUp's strategic management is better than Hitler's. [;)]

That one battle with AFV losses 100-0 must have been humiliating. You have proven, however, that you can crack a fortified line. The question is if you can keep up the pressure (not yet, but soon) faster than he can rebuild the forts.

Good luck with what looks like a brutal winter campaign.


Judging by his performance so far, I doubt he has any intention to give me a Stalingrad or Kursk style freebie. I'm dreading the arrival of all those elite SS units in spring 1943.

my basic plan is that I can exhaust his handful of elite units faster than my more numerous, but less competent, units run into the ground.

At the moment it looks like each major sector of the front has 1 Pzr Corps in position, so in those battles at Tambov, I'd spotted another collection to the west (of which some intervened to stop 6 Army) and more to the south (too far to react), so basically his 14 Pzr corps ends up running around. Few turns of that and they'll need to go to the rear.

More importantly, if he really wants to stop me at Tambov, he'll need another Pzr Corps. Sooner or later that has to leave somewhere very exposed, but its then unknown if I can take advantage. The gain for 1943 is with a bit of time (to rebuild morale) and shifting more armies to a core of rifle corps + artillery divisions, then I can attack any weak sector without having to shift in my reserves in order to do so.

My tank losses are inflated by the uselessness of the T-60s and the relative vulnerability of the T-70s. Clearly when I lose, I lose a lot, but its something I can stand for some time. Keeping my current army of 7.7m and 8,000 tanks is relatively easy given what I have in the pools.

Next turn will see the VVS start to convert to 32 plane squadrons. I'll need to do some juggling but that will again pull a lot out of the pools, esp Il-2s, so my ability to hit him across the entire front goes up. Equally important, it'll be less obvious that I am building up for an attack signalled by the arrival of substantial air assets.



Timotheus -> RE: T76 27 November – 2 December (1/19/2015 2:18:07 AM)

From an Axis player point of view, in a strategic defensive, is it worth it to have panzer divisions on RESERVE status? Is it worth it AT ALL to have units on RESERVE status?

Just a newbie question but I am wondering whether this would give you, the Soviet player, more of a headache than putting the units in the line proper. This way there would be more of an uncertainty about attacks (i.e. will they or will they not intervene?).



jwolf -> RE: T76 27 November – 2 December (1/19/2015 3:07:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Timotheus

From an Axis player point of view, in a strategic defensive, is it worth it to have panzer divisions on RESERVE status? Is it worth it AT ALL to have units on RESERVE status?



Short answer: yes. If all your units are on the line they all suffer attrition. Moreover, the Soviets can plan attacks with certainty. Reserve activation -- on either side -- masks the true defensive strength and brings ulcers to those tasked with offensive plans. For the panzer divisions in particular, in principle they can make as many as 3 reserve activations each turn.

Ideally, you would have used some reserves yourself during the first winter ... [;)]



Timotheus -> RE: T76 27 November – 2 December (1/19/2015 5:43:27 AM)

" For the panzer divisions in particular, in principle they can make as many as 3 reserve activations each turn. "

That's incredible - thanks!

"Ideally, you would have used some reserves yourself during the first winter ... "

If you want to watch a GOOD player PLAY this game, you are in the correct place... Eh heh heh....Errr.... [;)]



loki100 -> RE: T76 27 November – 2 December (1/19/2015 7:06:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Timotheus

" For the panzer divisions in particular, in principle they can make as many as 3 reserve activations each turn. "

...


thats why I'm putting in so much effort into diversionary attacks, I'm trying to trigger SigUp's reserves into attacks that will probably fail anyway so that when I attack where I really want to I have more chance of just fighting the units at the front.

the reason in the report why I grumbled at the success of 5 and 12 Armies is that no German reserves intervened so I won the battle. Now I was able to shove a rifle division into the gap and that in turn pinned some reserves (if they are in a zoc they cannot be triggered as reserves).

But

its not foolproof (for either side). In the above there is an eg of a reaction after I thought I'd burnt them all of. In the first set of Kalinin battles there was a Pzr division just behind Kalinin that my recon had missed (so it hadn't been bombed) and yet it declined to take part either in the Kalinin fighting or the battles on the Lama ... I had a real moment of shock when I advanced and found it there.

If you fear reserve reactions, try and find them and bomb them. Disruption reduces the effectiveness (& chance?), also disruptions tend to feed into fatigue in the following turn (which reduced both effectiveness and chance).

Offensive reserves in turn mean you can bring even more to bear on a given hex than the simple front line.

In addition, regiments are more likely to react than divisions, but the cost is that in a large battle regiments may not be above to really influence the final result



loki100 -> T77 3 – 9 December 1942 (1/22/2015 9:57:21 PM)

T77 3 – 9 December 1942: Let him preserve the Motherland

(as advanced warning, there is a lot of patch/supply related grumbling going on in this post … not sure if its true or just a reflection of frustration)

Weather Report

Early December saw the weather worsen, in the north even major rivers such as the Oka froze.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img908/4343/ee6dxu.jpg[/image]

In the south, rivers remained treacherous obstacles, sufficient ice to impede attempts to cross but not enough to provide a reliable surface.

Combat Reports

The active fighting remained concentrated on two sectors. Around Kalinin, both sides traded massive blows as they sought to make key gains. 1 Shock was driven back from the Lama but 4 Shock and 55 Army, with support from artillery of the Leningrad Front made significant inroads to the east of the city.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img537/4073/MerVaW.jpg[/image]

Each major battle involved 200-300,000 men as the two armies struggled for the advantage.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img540/103/h1x1pl.jpg[/image]
(at some stage in this game I'd love to win a significant defensive battle, maybe in 1943 with the higher morale at that stage).

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img661/2079/EfAPUH.jpg[/image]
German machine gun captured in the Kalinin battles

At Tambov, German counterattacks had been more limited and the Soviets repeated the tactics of the previous week. Don and Stalingrad Fronts hit the flanks and drew off substantial German reserves.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img911/936/ocmWya.jpg[/image]

Once the Germans were embroiled on the flanks, 46 Army tried to clear elements of 44 Corps holding the southern edge of the German salient and . The first attack failed due to the intervention of SS Wiking and 58 Army tried to shift 29 Corps from the wooded terrain east of Tambov only to face fresh German armoured forces. It quickly became clear the Germans had committed at least one more Panzer Corps (48) to try and stop the Soviet offensive.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img661/2322/ug82tb.jpg[/image]

Hoping that the German reserves were committed, Tolbukhin released 1 and 2 Tank Armies as 58 Army this time pushed the 29 Corps over the Tsna and reached the southern outskirts of Tambov.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img540/1897/KioZ83.jpg[/image]
1 Tank Army moving up at Tambov

Sensing an opportunity, 3rd Tank followed up, hoping to catch the retreating 56 Infantry on the open steppes. This time the Germans were forced to commit their elite Gross Deutschland to hold off the Soviet armour.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img538/849/ZecyuF.jpg[/image]
(this means I lost 7 attacks and won 1 in that sequence so have made no real gains, lost morale and improved the morale of the Germans)

Voronezh, Don and Stalingrad Fronts had all suffered heavy losses for no gains. The original German front to the south of Tambov had been shattered but it was clear that the German reserves were so powerful that such limited offensives had no real chance of significant success (and this links to the supply discussion below).

OOB

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img911/6171/lkVtku.jpg[/image]

Overall, I am trying to keep the army at the same size. Some units, even on rails. have had no supplies for weeks even as it is. The VVS has just changed to the 32 squadron units and I've sent a lot to reserve to try and control supply demand. The good thing is this allows me to remove all the remaining Yak1/LaGG-3/Hurricane IIB equipped units and I'll be able to cover most of the front with Sturmoviks.

I have the same manpower (in units) as I had on T73 (but manpower in the pool is up 200,000 to 1.2m), 2,500 more guns (and these are probably on average much heavier), 250 less tanks (but again masses in the pools) and 550 more aircraft (which I cannot use).

The Germans are down 20,000 men (unit withdrawals?), 300 guns and 450 aircraft but have 240 more AFVs. No real changes for any of their allies.

Losses in the last week were 12,000 Germans, 49,000 Soviets, 14 German and 351 Soviet tanks and 9 German aircraft for 134 Soviet.

In truth, at every step, the lack of supply is depriving me of my only real advantage both on the ground and in the air. The actual fighting is in too limited an area to really stretch the Germans or allow any gains.


Industry and Supply

As this now represents four weeks of relatively active combat, thought it would be useful to update the supply reports. This adds T74-78 to the earlier data, but I've done the same set of reports.

The table shows production and allocation. I remain confused as to why total production varies when the stock of HI is the same and I have no shortages of resources. The proportion actually going out to units is again variable but down from T73.

A graph showing total supply/total demand and supply/demand (in units). The latter has proved variable but is down from the 29% (and to make this worse, entire sectors are getting no supply at all).

The lower section shows Global Supply from the HQ data. This dropped to 86%, 87%, 88% and then to 76%.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img540/2184/LSmTum.jpg[/image]

I remain unsure as to which piece of information matters the most. I think the reason that Global Supply fell on this turn was the VVS swapped to the 32 plane unit and that added over 1000 aircraft to my on-map airfields (fortunately almost all FB or Tactical Bombers). I've sent a lot to reserve to try and keep the deployed number around 4,700.

If things don't improve with the 1943 multipliers and lend lease I am in real trouble. As is obvious from the combat results, if all I can do is to attack on narrow sectors (ie a repeat of last winter) then I am going to make no progress this winter. I'm all in favour of the changes and intents in the 1.08 patches, but its proving pretty disastrous for me in this game. ... (now no more grumbling [;)])



jwolf -> RE: T77 3 – 9 December 1942 (1/22/2015 10:12:57 PM)

Winter operations burn through more supply, don't they? Or at least in general, supply distribution suffers during poorer weather.

Some of those defeats were brutal, especially 3rd tank army at the hands of GD. [:(] IMHO you won't be in position to "exploit" opening attacks for quite a while as it will take a long grinding campaign to wear down the whole German army first. Any chance you can take out your aggression on some Rumanians?



randallw -> RE: T77 3 – 9 December 1942 (1/24/2015 7:21:13 PM)

The unmodified CVs of many of the Soviet units thrown in to attack were kinda poor. Maybe it would have been a better idea for them to rest if they had lots of fatigue, or their experience is lagging behind their morale quite a bit.



M60A3TTS -> RE: T77 3 – 9 December 1942 (1/24/2015 8:43:22 PM)

Your vehicles % in motor pool vs. needed is about 75% and that is pretty low. But this is very typical for blizzard 1942-43.

You seem to have too many aircraft deployed for this time of year. You just aren't going to get enough supporting aircraft to fly in blizzard to justify what is expended in the truck fleet. All you really need active are aircraft in fronts involved in offensive action. Inactive fronts can literally go to zero. Also watch the number of tank SUs. I no longer build tank bn/regt SUs except for guards HTRs and flame tank bns.




loki100 -> RE: T77 3 – 9 December 1942 (1/25/2015 8:17:09 AM)

Since all these comments sort of relate to my whinge in the main post, I'll sort of provide an overall answer then deal with the details.

I have set entire fronts to 75% TOE and have scrapped about 50 units (ranging from divisions to support units) over the last 6 turns in an attempt to drive down my supply usage. Despite this, if an army (completely static) is either a few hexes off the rail or on the extreme flanks (and on a rail) then it gets no supply, turn after turn after turn.

This matters as it means I can't launch a large offensive on the flanks, indeed I can't launch an offensive apart from in the obvious areas.

Now what all this is doing in combination is removing my one and only advantage - numbers. I'm happy to use attritional tactics, I'm happy to plan for a loss ratio of 5-2 (losses-wins) by sending in a load of 'large enough to be dangerous' attacks and then accept that even when I make the real attacks there will be some reserve activations that turn the tide. As a lot of people are finding in WiTW, unless you use the allies' one real advantage (at least in 1943) of airpower well, you will end up making no progress. Well I can't use my only advantage.

I'm equally happy at an operational strategy of stop-start (that is why we reduced the logistics values), and of shifting focus and so on. This phase should be attritional, but since my attacks are on such limited areas, and so closely tied to the rails (there is no point trying to operate with 0 supply - as above) then its too predictable.

There is a wider issue, if I'm not fighting on the Dniepr in the winter 43/44 (ie trying to cross when its frozen) then this is heading for a substantial defeat. I can't see that happening as I know there is a huge belt of forts from Bryansk-Kharkov-Stalino and given how things are going I doubt I'll even reach the Don this winter.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

Winter operations burn through more supply, don't they? Or at least in general, supply distribution suffers during poorer weather.

Some of those defeats were brutal, especially 3rd tank army at the hands of GD. [:(] IMHO you won't be in position to "exploit" opening attacks for quite a while as it will take a long grinding campaign to wear down the whole German army first. Any chance you can take out your aggression on some Rumanians?


As above, the core problem is, as its been since 1.08 not just of lower supply production, but that supply sits in the depots.

No chance to get at the axis allies. Mostly this links to the supply delivery problem above -if I move my powerful units to the flanks they get no supply, also if I move my powerful units to the flanks and keep up no pressure in the centre then I may (or may not) get one turn of decent attacks but then all the German reserves will arrive

quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

The unmodified CVs of many of the Soviet units thrown in to attack were kinda poor. Maybe it would have been a better idea for them to rest if they had lots of fatigue, or their experience is lagging behind their morale quite a bit.


Some of the secondary attacks are being done with units driven down to a 75% TOE, there is no chance for a win, just hoping they draw off his reserves. Also don't forget I am using 95% morale so after the summer my typical rifle divisions are in the 40-41 range, so an unmodified 2 cv is as good as it gets, most remain stuck at one.

Elsewhere, I am trying to rest and clear fatigue as far as I can with so limited an attacking force.

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Your vehicles % in motor pool vs. needed is about 75% and that is pretty low. But this is very typical for blizzard 1942-43.

You seem to have too many aircraft deployed for this time of year. You just aren't going to get enough supporting aircraft to fly in blizzard to justify what is expended in the truck fleet. All you really need active are aircraft in fronts involved in offensive action. Inactive fronts can literally go to zero. Also watch the number of tank SUs. I no longer build tank bn/regt SUs except for guards HTRs and flame tank bns.



Trucks are probably just about ok, where supply is actually arriving I'm getting a decent enough range of MPs for the rifle divisions etc, on the flanks they are mostly stuck at around 8.

Air, don't forget that what shows on the right hand side is almost everything I potentially have (reserve+frontline-those ordered back to reserve this turn). The 4923 at the front *may* be too many but 1000 are some sort of U2 which make very low demands. There are 2 squadrons of level bombers (and I actually sent them back this turn) and 2 of transports (trying to do something to help the supply delivery problem), the rest are fighters or sturmoviks.

Again,the issue is that one area where I should be able to use numbers is just not happening. A typical air turn is seeing me lose around 200 for about 30 axis losses.

I really have pruned back on SUs of all types, scrapped a lot of the heavier artillery so that those guns can be recycled into the artillery divisions and so on.

I want to keep some air in inactive fronts (apart from where supply delivery is so bad they can't fly anyway), in an attempt to confuse SigUp as to where I will/can attack. The more this becomes focussed on very narrow areas then the more it becomes easy to block.

So, in general, at this moment the patches have done a lot of harm (to this game) even though the underlying changes are laudable and sensible. It cost me a lot at critical stages in the summer (losing 60% of my frontline TOEs in one turn, having to pulll back and thus relieve any supply problems, and I challenge anyone to try and defend with 38NM rifle divisions) and now the supply delivery routines are stalling my second winter offensive. Like last time I'm back to trading hexes, that was ok then, but game losing now (and I should add I don't care if I reach Berlin in May or August 1945, but I would like to have some chance of ever getting there).

Now I could be wrong, the boost of NM to 47 (ie .95*50) in 1943, the better HI multipliers and more lend lease may shift the balance despite the constraints.

Edit and just to stress

this sounds like more of a complaint than I mean it to be, just trying to put what I'm doing in game into context which is one of significant resource constraints. SigUp has mostly played this game fairly conservatively and he is reaping the rewards now. His infantry isn't great (most divisions seem to have 6-7 attack cv), his mobile units are fresh and well rested (and cleverly deployed) and he has a small cadre of very powerful infantry (half of which are now stuck in Kalinin). He has almost never had to expose the non-German formations.

In part down to his tactics and operations and in part due to the patch consequences, I am bashing my head (electronically) against a brick wall.

The game remains interesting and the challenge of trying to find even the smallest of meaningful advantages is good fun. It is also very informative to have to manage the transition to the 1943 Red Army.



gingerbread -> RE: T77 3 – 9 December 1942 (1/25/2015 1:57:13 PM)

Since I'm a minor collaborator in the patch project, I'd like to comment on some of the issues you bring up, and some that you don't. This will hopefully be read by others as well, so I will allow myself to say things that are probably self evident to you, but perhaps not to everyone. These are my personal views.

First, thanks for hanging in there and for your informative and interesting AAR. It's an enjoyment to read and also a reference when evaluating the impact of the changes in the patches. Thanks also goes to SigUp for his(*).

One of the ideas was to get a more dynamic 1942 in the '41-'45 CG. The main change to implement this was to reduce the Soviet NM to 40 during 4/42-8/42. I admit I was very sceptical to this at first, but since the Training Army concept showed it's possible to mitigate the lower quality with quantity, I'm now very much in favour. It keeps the Axis initiative active and requires the Soviet players to realize, perhaps after a failed 2nd Kharkov or its equivalent, that even though large, in 1942 the Soviet army is not up to offensive operations yet.

While if following a historical script you should have, or at least have been able to launch Op Uranus or such, SigUp is not quite as extended as the Axis were and his usage of reserves as fingers in the dyke does prevent breaches but it also ties up his powerful units on the defense, since they must conserve MP's to be able to react. You OTOH have to make the kind of attacks you make to keep the Axis player honest. If no Soviet attacks necessitating reserves then I would expect more Axis ones, though perhaps not from SigUp who is as you say playing conservatively. It is an intermediate step in the power shift, a step that I'm not sad to see.

With that said, I'd like to comment some of the issues you have and still are experiencing.

The supply system is not that good in a hand-to-mouth situation. It performs much better if there is some buffer. I think it tries to keep more than one turns worth of supplies for production of ARM & ground elements at factories, so the required number in the production screen is not quite as exact as it seems. In your case, you suffered an unexpected reduced multiplier (SupM) mid game. Your situation led to an as yet unreleased increase of the SupM so we'll see from there.

I realize it does not do you any good, but short of hacking you an extra million supply points, there is not much that can be done. (morvael is on vacation, so there is no one available to do that anyhow.) You will have to stay selective until you have at least 200%. You could try some reallocation using air transport, but that does not change the total. Your army is rather large at 7.75M though I confess I don't know what you could do without.

I do think that your 75% of need in vehicles does have an impact on supply deliveries. A tad too many tank/Mech Corps or at least they were formed to early? This will change slowly once the LL deliveries ramps. You might check just how many vehicles you airbases employ (CR-Units-Current-Abs), and evaluate if you think you are getting your money's worth from the air force given your truck shortage. I'll not recommend anything except an evaluation.

You do have an ample pool of ARM, so I expect that in future games, the Soviet players will modify the evacuation priorities somewhat. I don't think it's feasible to take on the supply mechanics more than the things that has been done. This is a better the devil you know case.

As to the air aspect, have you read any AAR of WitP:AE? They have coined the expression Ablative Armor (Am spelling since it is a name) for the use of lower quality Japanese fighters in the mid & end game. I think Soviet FB's and F's should be seen as such. It is a very cynical view, but war what it is. In short, the main mission is to get the bomber through to assist the ground fight. If the Soviet FB's achieve that by wiggling their noses at the Germans to attract attention, that's mission accomplished. Taking bullets for the bombers is another way to get the same result.

I do think that once the effect of the '43 values (NM, HI) are seen, you can get attrition started. As to if you will get over the Dnepr while it is still frozen a year from now, that's one thing I will enjoy reading about.

* Since SigUp does not read your AAR, please consider forwarding this to him, with suitable redaction's.



loki100 -> RE: T77 3 – 9 December 1942 (1/25/2015 7:13:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

Since I'm a minor collaborator in the patch project, I'd like to comment on some of the issues you bring up, and some that you don't. This will hopefully be read by others as well, so I will allow myself to say things that are probably self evident to you, but perhaps not to everyone. These are my personal views.

First, thanks for hanging in there and for your informative and interesting AAR. It's an enjoyment to read and also a reference when evaluating the impact of the changes in the patches. Thanks also goes to SigUp for his(*).

One of the ideas was to get a more dynamic 1942 in the '41-'45 CG. The main change to implement this was to reduce the Soviet NM to 40 during 4/42-8/42. I admit I was very sceptical to this at first, but since the Training Army concept showed it's possible to mitigate the lower quality with quantity, I'm now very much in favour. It keeps the Axis initiative active and requires the Soviet players to realize, perhaps after a failed 2nd Kharkov or its equivalent, that even though large, in 1942 the Soviet army is not up to offensive operations yet.


Have to say I completely support this, I've long been convinced that 1942 should be the year when the Soviet state is at serious risk, not 1941. The consequences of the relative failure of the winter offensive, Kharkov and that the Germans seemed to still have the ability to drive deep into Soviet positions really wrecked both military adnd civilian morale. While Stavka (but not Stalin) knew that 42 had to be on the strategic defensive they really did not anticipate how much offensive capacity the Germans had retained.

I like the training army concept, done well it can be hidden (don't let your rifle brigades take on more than 3000 men), but provides a high morale/mixed experience reserve to hurl into the line and replace losses. But the other key aspect is Gds, too many and the lower NM problem is lost, too few and it is amplified


quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

While if following a historical script you should have, or at least have been able to launch Op Uranus or such, SigUp is not quite as extended as the Axis were and his usage of reserves as fingers in the dyke does prevent breaches but it also ties up his powerful units on the defense, since they must conserve MP's to be able to react. You OTOH have to make the kind of attacks you make to keep the Axis player honest. If no Soviet attacks necessitating reserves then I would expect more Axis ones, though perhaps not from SigUp who is as you say playing conservatively. It is an intermediate step in the power shift, a step that I'm not sad to see.


In a way SigUp has done what the Germans should have done. Not used that capacity in the hunt for the chimera of outright victory but instead as a means to stalemate things. The problem in this is it fails to reflect the over-riding German imperative of having to win having started this war. From the point of view of their leadership it made little difference if they lost in 1945 or 1947, losing had to mean complete and utter defeat.


quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

With that said, I'd like to comment some of the issues you have and still are experiencing.

The supply system is not that good in a hand-to-mouth situation. It performs much better if there is some buffer. I think it tries to keep more than one turns worth of supplies for production of ARM & ground elements at factories, so the required number in the production screen is not quite as exact as it seems. In your case, you suffered an unexpected reduced multiplier (SupM) mid game. Your situation led to an as yet unreleased increase of the SupM so we'll see from there.

I realize it does not do you any good, but short of hacking you an extra million supply points, there is not much that can be done. (morvael is on vacation, so there is no one available to do that anyhow.) You will have to stay selective until you have at least 200%. You could try some reallocation using air transport, but that does not change the total. Your army is rather large at 7.75M though I confess I don't know what you could do without.

I do think that your 75% of need in vehicles does have an impact on supply deliveries. A tad too many tank/Mech Corps or at least they were formed to early? This will change slowly once the LL deliveries ramps. You might check just how many vehicles you airbases employ (CR-Units-Current-Abs), and evaluate if you think you are getting your money's worth from the air force given your truck shortage. I'll not recommend anything except an evaluation.


I have 20 Tank and 5 Mech Corps, may have formed some tank corps too early but this is one of those feedback loops, lack of Gds+low morale rifle divisions, so felt I needed them to have any meaningful offensive capacity.

For air I think its more complex. Even empty airbases want 97 supply and 357 vehicles, so there is little gain to operating much below that – other than that a local reserve may build up only to be burnt off immediately that planes are deployed. In this context I only have 2 airbases that are demanding more than the basic and inevitable request, one has my 2 transport units so I could reduce that, but its marginal in the overall scheme of things


quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

You do have an ample pool of ARM, so I expect that in future games, the Soviet players will modify the evacuation priorities somewhat. I don't think it's feasible to take on the supply mechanics more than the things that has been done. This is a better the devil you know case.


Here is where urban myths have too much power. The peltonic arms pts crunch has entered too deeply into most people's understanding of this game, in truth it seems no big issue compared to running out of supply

quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread


As to the air aspect, have you read any AAR of WitP:AE? They have coined the expression Ablative Armor (Am spelling since it is a name) for the use of lower quality Japanese fighters in the mid & end game. I think Soviet FB's and F's should be seen as such. It is a very cynical view, but war what it is. In short, the main mission is to get the bomber through to assist the ground fight. If the Soviet FB's achieve that by wiggling their noses at the Germans to attract attention, that's mission accomplished. Taking bullets for the bombers is another way to get the same result.


I'm happy at this, it does reflect VVS doctrine and tactics. The only reason to have fighters was to disturb German bombers or give some protection to Soviet bombers. Air superiority, as understood both in the WW2 and NATO eras, was not really a Soviet concept, what mattered was the effective projection of air power.

My only problem is being so circumscribed in terms of actual capacity for one of the aspects of the Soviet armed forces where I could do real damage.

quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

I do think that once the effect of the '43 values (NM, HI) are seen, you can get attrition started. As to if you will get over the Dnepr while it is still frozen a year from now, that's one thing I will enjoy reading about.

* Since SigUp does not read your AAR, please consider forwarding this to him, with suitable redaction's.


Have passed it on as it is. One of the delights of a good PBEM is not just coming up with nasty plans but also chatting about the game.



loki100 -> T78 10-16 December 1942 (1/25/2015 7:16:38 PM)

T78 10-16 December 1942 "Before me - Immortality"

Mid-December saw further shifts from the usual winter weather. If harsh weather had arrived early in the north, then warm weather returned in the south, leaving the lower Don mired in mud.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img910/7370/NMQtIK.jpg[/image]

On the ground, Stavka shifted target but not tactics. Both the Kalinin and Tambov offensives were suspended as mounting German resistance made it impossible to make any gains.

However, Koniev's Bryansk Front was drawn from reserve and given the task of retaking the rail junction at Yelan-Koleno on the Karachan. Potentially success here offered the chance to outflank the German positions at Tambov.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img661/1007/dys8UC.png[/image]

Stalingrad Front was again ordered to attack in support and launched a series of attacks across the frozen Karachan and Khoper rivers. Most, as expected, failed but again drew in German reserves. Unexpectedly 16 Army drove in elements of 44 Corps and allowed some progress towards the small town of Etil till the Soviet breakthrough was stalled by SS Wiking having driven 20 kms into their rear.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img673/5189/twSmuw.jpg[/image]
(artillery of 16 Army on the Karachan sector)

Again, before Bryansk Front committed its assault units, known German reserves were pounded by Sturmoviks while U2s carried on harrasment raids on their front line formations. Here, and around Kalinin, the VVS again paid a heavy price losing 197 planes. However a shift of tactics meant the Germans lost 36 including a number of planes caught on the ground.

Rested, and having had the chance to re-equip, an entire Soviet Front fell on the German 52 Infantry Corps just south of Yelan-Koleno. 50 Army to the north and 38 Army to the south tore a 20 mile gap in the front and were able to exploit their gains. Depending on the strength of the German reserves, their front to the south reaching down to the Don at Boguchar was at risk.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img540/5462/1gSuff.jpg[/image]
(tanks and infantry of 50 Army hit the exposed 52 Corps)

Recognising the potential, Stavka ordered its last fresh reserves to prepare to hit yet another sector of the German front.

Losses reflected both the localised nature of the fighting and its intensity. Soviet forces lost 47,000 men for 13,000 Germans and 421 tanks for 26. However, the great majority of Soviet armoured losses were the badly outclassed T-60 and T-70 with relatively few T34s.

In Siberia, the first of a new generation of assault guns left the production lines. Designed to add additional punch both to armoured formations and the shock armies, Stavka placed great reliance on the new SU-122.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img661/6734/o4xU8s.jpg[/image]


[a short report, but most of the front was inactive, as I let things rest or stared in dismay at the German reactions]



jwolf -> RE: T78 10-16 December 1942 (1/25/2015 7:31:26 PM)

Loki, that "ghost view" of the Axis units along the front is both beautiful and chilling. Really cool. I continue to be impressed with the graphics both you and SigUp have used in your AARs.

Regarding the high losses of T60 and T70 tanks -- what are your pools like for these? You imply that you're OK with these losses since these are not the primary tanks your tank corps and mech corps use -- and that is true -- but what about your cav corps? Sometime in 1943 they go to a new TOE that makes them awesomely tough, and it would be a shame if you ran out of the cav tanks they need just when they would turn into the strong and fast units you've wanted them to be for ages.



loki100 -> RE: T78 10-16 December 1942 (1/25/2015 8:57:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

Loki, that "ghost view" of the Axis units along the front is both beautiful and chilling. Really cool. I continue to be impressed with the graphics both you and SigUp have used in your AARs.

Regarding the high losses of T60 and T70 tanks -- what are your pools like for these? You imply that you're OK with these losses since these are not the primary tanks your tank corps and mech corps use -- and that is true -- but what about your cav corps? Sometime in 1943 they go to a new TOE that makes them awesomely tough, and it would be a shame if you ran out of the cav tanks they need just when they would turn into the strong and fast units you've wanted them to be for ages.


partly for a work contract I've been playing around with the concept of infographics ... quite interesting if you avoid going over the top. But there I was experimenting with layers, the only problem is you have to save the final file as .png rather than .jpg so its best only done for smallish images or it really hits loading times.

Not too sure about T-60s, think I have about 1500 in the pool, but I have >3000 T-70s and have actually just moved 2 of the factories to reduce production. Even with that, they are churning out 150 or so a week, so I think I'll have enough left [:)]

But the thing that makes the cav corps so impressive is the addition of T-34s to the TOE? I think at that stage M60A3TTS is correct about scrapping indep tank bns/regs as you need the T-34s elsewhere. Also they are better replaced with SU-76s in any case. I'd also add SU-76/85 to the cav corps and you start to come very close to modelling the Soviet cav-mech group concept.



jwolf -> RE: T78 10-16 December 1942 (1/25/2015 10:13:52 PM)

OK I'll concede that my fears about your stocks of T60 and T70 were ill founded. I don't know the specific change in TOE that causes this but I do remember being very impressed sometime in 1943 as the cav corps went from good to great. Anyway, sounds like you've got that part under control. Good luck as you continue the fight.



randallw -> RE: T78 10-16 December 1942 (1/26/2015 10:52:29 PM)

The heavy industry number of 161 is the root of the supply problem. It simply can't support an army with the size to swamp the Germans.



loki100 -> RE: T78 10-16 December 1942 (1/27/2015 9:53:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

The heavy industry number of 161 is the root of the supply problem. It simply can't support an army with the size to swamp the Germans.


I agree, and its good that HI now has to loom large in the planning for the Soviets in 1941, but the result for this game is simple. If I shrink my army to the implied size (7m?) then I lose all ability to do anything but defend. Since that is pointless as an approach I have to find ways to generate some pressure at the moment and hope that 1943 brings some relief?

In my defense, this is my first PBEM campaign, even though the AI is good it never really puts you under massive pressure, esp not in 1942 (I think it needs a script to tell it to send the Pzrs south if either Leningrad falls or its clear that it will survive). I believed all the stuff that has entered folklore about *arms pts crunches*, and this is where I am. Before 1.08 lowered the multiplier I was doing ok for supply, I needed to be a bit careful, I'd probably been a bit wasteful in over use of the Il-4s etc, but I could fairly easily redress a short term problem.



M60A3TTS -> RE: T78 10-16 December 1942 (1/27/2015 4:16:34 PM)

The arms crunch is not urban legend, it does happen. The thing is, it is most felt during blizzard of 41 when you are trying to make the most of a short-lived opportunity to push your opponent back. After the multiplier kicks in starting January if your factories are in great shape, the issue tends to be relatively short lived. In the case of the supply crunch the effects are longer term at least for now where there is no 1942 multiplier. But if we operate under the assumption that a force of 7 million can be supplied with a multiplier of 1.0 then that grows to 8.4 million with a supply multiplier of 1.2.

You also have to remember that supply distribution is just as important as supply generation. Uranus never works as it did historically for the Soviets in a typical GC because their truck fleet is crippled as the number of broken trucks will soar to 70k during the 42-43 blizzard period. It is only during the late spring early summer of 43 when the combination of LL trucks and clear weather that reduces the glut of broken trucks and the # needed in the MP once again gives the Red Army teeth.

Meantime you seem to be doing the right things by shifting factories around. Besides airplanes you can also look at AFV production lines in 43-44 that sit with large unused pools of vehicles. Even with the T-34 you can have the equivalent of 5 production lines running each with a peak of 62 tanks a week. You can cut back on one or more if you are sitting pretty with thousands of spares.



Gabriel B. -> RE: T77 3 – 9 December 1942 (1/28/2015 5:30:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

I have 20 Tank and 5 Mech Corps, may have formed some tank corps too early but this is one of those feedback loops, lack of Gds+low morale rifle divisions, so felt I needed them to have any meaningful offensive capacity.



That is exacly the number I want on the field in dec 1942, however I do form 4 more tank and 4 mech corps (on reduced toe )
keept on static until may 1943. It takes a lot AP to reactivate ,but the arival of the steppe front helps, and you get the cost of forming them back, when you strip them of vehicles .



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