China....

China.... (Full Version)

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the1henson -> China.... (12/6/2013 4:23:23 PM)
Alright, y'all. Not new to the game, but new to the forums, and I'm by no means an expert, or even intermediate. Just a guy who's tinkered around against the AI as the Allies for way too long. That said, what's always kept me from taking a plunge into deeper waters has been a lack of understanding about how land combat works in game, and operational considerations in China. I understand the importance of supply and controlling upgrades, and finding whatever defensible lines I think are suitable, but is there a decent resource somewhere with some reading about how to deal with the land war in this game engine? It just seems to be pure gibberish to me, and while China confusion is the obvious manifestation, I think it strongly weaken my play across the board as well (in Burma and Malaysia, for example). I see people estimating things like AV needed and just wonder to myself, "Where are these conclusions coming from?" Thanks. Sorry for the over-broad newb-ish question, but we all start somewhere, and I've set a goal of diving in with a human in the future.

obvert -> RE: China.... (12/6/2013 5:03:24 PM)
It's tough until you have a good understanding of the effects of terrain and relative firepower on combat. In the beginning the IJA has better 'stuff' than the Chinese, and they have almost no soupy as well. They do have numbers and hey have good defensive terrain. When players estimate AV needed they will always be thinking of the period and situation in question. Is it 42 or 44? Who is fighting? What is the terrain defensive modifier (keyboard shortcut 1)? You would also need to know what kind of air assets are in range and if it's a clear hex especially air strikes can drastically alter combat outcomes by bombing troops and bringing up disruption levels. Morale, fatigue and experience are the other unit-based things that have a direct effect on combat and leadership affects both these factors and combat performance. A unit might beat another of the same AV with a better leader, higher experience, better morale, less fatigue, HQs in range, etc. China is a great place to learn as the Japanese player. Maneuver, hex-side control and isolating, surrounding and destroying units can teach you a lot about what to do and what not to do in other theatres. Sometimes maneuver alone can force the opposition to retreat, just as in a real combat situation. There is not a ground combat guide that I know of, but any game that featured a lot of combat in China or Burma would be a good place to look. Also have a look at the units, devices and differences in things like anti-soft and anti-armor ratings. All squads are not equal. There are some silly things about the game's ground model, but you can learn to use them to your advantage.

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: China.... (12/6/2013 6:49:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obvert the IJA has better 'stuff' than the Chinese, and they have almost no soupy as well. I know I get grumpy when I get no soupy. [:)]

mind_messing -> RE: China.... (12/6/2013 6:58:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obvert There are some silly things about the game's ground model, but you can learn to use them to your advantage. Like 17 armoured cars closing off the retreat of 100,000 Chinese troops. As Obvert has said, you make your own conclusions from your own experiance. For what my opinion is worth, Chinese troops are about half as effective as Japanese troops in open, unfortified terrain. When the terrain modifiers start boosting the Chinese troops, that's when you need to bring as much, if not more, toys to play with. Bascially, if you're trying to move 1k AV worth of Chinese troops in rough terrain, bring 2k worth of Japanese troops.

obvert -> RE: China.... (12/7/2013 9:56:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mind_messing quote: ORIGINAL: obvert There are some silly things about the game's ground model, but you can learn to use them to your advantage. Like 17 armoured cars closing off the retreat of 100,000 Chinese troops. As Obvert has said, you make your own conclusions from your own experiance. For what my opinion is worth, Chinese troops are about half as effective as Japanese troops in open, unfortified terrain. When the terrain modifiers start boosting the Chinese troops, that's when you need to bring as much, if not more, toys to play with. Bascially, if you're trying to move 1k AV worth of Chinese troops in rough terrain, bring 2k worth of Japanese troops. During most of the war I've been only confident of results in China when I have a 3:1 AV ratio attacking any fortified position in good terrain. Even that is not always enough. A +3 wooded/rough hex may also have troops with 3-4 forts built after sitting there for a while. That is tough, and takes some time. You will lose troops attacking fortified positions, and may have to spend a month or more to break through in some spots. Later in defense I was pretty confident through mid-44 with anything better then a 1:2 ratio in a fortified position agains the Allies. Even sometimes a 1:3 position could hold in the right terrain, and of course it matter which Allied troops are across the line. Now in late 44-45 all bets are off. The Japanese quality disadvantage is massive, so even a 1:2 defensive position is frail against well supported Allied troops with air support or naval bombardments support.

obvert -> RE: China.... (12/7/2013 9:58:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 quote: ORIGINAL: obvert the IJA has better 'stuff' than the Chinese, and they have almost no soupy as well. I know I get grumpy when I get no soupy. [:)] I had my soupy last night, so I'm pretty happy this morning. [;)] Gotta love auto-correct!

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