RE: The core problem with WitE+

RE: The core problem with WitE+ (Full Version)

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series

Message

Peltonx -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/6/2014 12:02:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown It's very hard to have a discussion with someone who claims that he is stating "facts" while everyone else is stating "opinions". I want the Soviets to attack as much as possible and be able to push back German troops. I don't see anything wrong with this. The problem is retreat losses and morale losses. None of these counterattack would be a major problem for the Axis if it weren't for retreat and morale losses. Fix this and you have an even more interesting game. In addition increase attack losses based on morale. This would limit Soviet counterattacks over time. Just my "opinions" for making this an even better game. I agree I see nothing unhistorical with SHC counter attacking and forsing German troops to retreat. The problem is the combat ratio's do not reflect the losses Russian forses took winning a battle. Core issue = combat engine.

Peltonx -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/6/2014 12:09:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rmonical quote: But the fact is it has not, because it does not reflex historical combat ratio. The current system encourages turtling and running. 1941 6 to 1 1942 5 to 1 1943 4 to 1 1944-45 3 to 1 The combat engine is off way off. standard loss ratios 1942 historical 5 to 1 / WitE 2.5 to 1 1943 historical 4 to 1 / WitE 1.5 to 1 ect ect

rmonical -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/6/2014 12:25:25 AM)
quote: The combat engine is off way off. standard loss ratios 1942 historical 5 to 1 / WitE 2.5 to 1 1943 historical 4 to 1 / WitE 1.5 to 1 ect ect That makes sense and we are probably agreeing. So the lower loss ratio means the designers had to reduce Soviet manpower - hence the reduced Soviet manpower discussion. The lower loss ratio is because of the dependence on closed pockets to cause losses. The Soviets become adept at avoiding pockets.

RedLancer -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/6/2014 7:47:19 AM)
Don't get me wrong I love a good argument about anything - especially history and logistics but the rationale for this whole thread amazes me. I completely agree that getting the combat engine correct is vital and it is equally important to get the logistics system correct too. I accept that to achieve overall game balance that one area should not be overly tweaked to address obvious flaws in the other area. I percieve that this approach has caused Pelton more than a little frustration. Arguing that logistics is sometimes not important in warfare is like saying that oxygen is not important when swimming underwater because you can't take a breath. It's still really important. Sure you can respire anaerobically but at a cost later on. However you are comparing physical and chemical activities in the same breath so to speak. But what really amazes me is that it has already been publicy announced that WitE2 will be a development on WitW which already has significant changes beyond WitE. Some of those people posting are WitW Testers and know the new system so it seems to me a little odd that discussion focuses on improving the WitE engine for WitE2 which will never happen. For those of you who are WitW Testers I recommend that you use the WitW Logistics System and Combat Engine to inform your point of view and provide recommendations (noting that here is not the place to do so). For those of you who are not WitW Testers I am always on the look out for those wanting to actively contribute to testing WitW. I caveat this with the observation that testing is a whole lot more than a sneak preview of a new game and takes some dedication and effort. If you are interested PM me and I'll pass your details to Joel & Erik who have the final say on access.

Peltonx -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/6/2014 5:07:01 PM)
I am happy with the progress as far as logistics goes with the current WitE model and have pointed out that the hole air dropping of fuel was for Flying Pigs. That the limiting of supplies (which morveal fixed ) was a good thing. I have seen 2by3 spend 3 yrs fixing the logistics system, but little time and patches have addressed the combat system. I was not the first to bring this up, I did not start pointing out the short coming until long after many others had pointed it out and left. The combat ratio's were the same 2 yrs ago as they are now. Tweaking the logistics system nearly every patch was needed, but to almost completely ignore the combat system is not helping anything. 1.5 to 1 combat ratio's in late 42-45 is simply non-historical and all the tweaking to the logistics system, which over all were a plus for the game has done NOTHING to change the combat ratio in 2+ yrs. I am 100% happy with the changes to logistics, but the facts are it has done nothing to change the combat ratio. I have been more then happy to look at and help tweak the logistics system, but again that has done nothing to change the combat system. Ignoring the core problem with the system does not fix it and tring to change the subject every time it has been brought up for the last 3 yrs does not help. But is a standard problem with many many subjects in the past. Also as you know I can not comment on the new systems.

RedLancer -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/6/2014 6:20:39 PM)
I'm not trying to change the subject but I am trying to reduce future angst by highlighting that combat engine changes for WitE2 will come from the WitW engine.

Peltonx -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/6/2014 7:06:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rmonical quote: The combat engine is off way off. standard loss ratios 1942 historical 5 to 1 / WitE 2.5 to 1 1943 historical 4 to 1 / WitE 1.5 to 1 ect ect That makes sense and we are probably agreeing. So the lower loss ratio means the designers had to reduce Soviet manpower - hence the reduced Soviet manpower discussion. The lower loss ratio is because of the dependence on closed pockets to cause losses. The Soviets become adept at avoiding pockets. the dependence on closed pockets to cause losses. And this is why 2by3 has spent patch after patch nerfing logistic (fuel basicly), which I understand. But by not ever fixing the combat ratio the game is headed for a WW I feel instaed of a WWII feel. Hopefully the right changes will be made in the future. Logistics changes might be needed, but far more changes will be needed in the area of combat engine.

carlkay58 -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/6/2014 7:17:09 PM)
A few comments: 1) Pelton claims that the core problem with WitE is the combat engine and that fixes to the logistics engine will not fix the combat engine. Thus his claim that 'Logistics don't matter', because logistics will not fix the combat engine. OK, I agree with that, but I see the logistics engine needing just as much fixing as the combat engine does in WitE. A personal opinion. 2) Because the combat engine is off, the manpower and equipment for the Soviet and Axis OBs are off. As mentioned above, the largest losses due to pocket surrenders, so when the Soviets lose less of them because of hindsight and running ability, something else has to be adjusted to keep things balanced. 3) Retreat and combat losses are being changed in WitW. Most of the retreat losses are now disruption results and are about 20 to 40% of the WitE losses. 4) There still needs to be something in place to give the Soviets a reason to defend forward and counter attack in 1941. Until that happens all of the rest are fixing small things but not the one major thing. One thing that still interests me is the occasional mention by Joel about having combat reduce the mps of the defending units. He has mentioned it from time to time in various venues but it is still not in the game. It appears to be a 'wish' item but it is still on the idea board. This could fix many things. If the Soviets could reduce the mps of the Axis armor units, this gives a great incentive to attack them, it would also make it harder for the Axis to pocket the Soviets in their counter attack, and make both sides keep operational reserves. All of which would make a better game. Again, just my opinion.

Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/6/2014 9:00:37 PM)
quote: But by not ever fixing the combat ratio the game is headed for a WW I feel instaed of a WWII feel. Sorry, but what data are you basing this statement on. Your last AARs tell a completely different story. We have 9 games against: saper222 Kelblau mitralTA Hermann Bigbaba Spielverderber Griefhead MatsuHiroshi Elninjo Now granted, some of those games were with 105/95 settings so they are not necessarily representative. Nevertheless, 8 of these 9 games ended with a complete and utter destruction of your opponents. Sometimes with encirclement of Moscow on T14 which is an absurdity in itself and just shows that the logistic system is still too much in favor of the Axis in 41. We still don't know how the game against Saper222 will end.

chuckfourth -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/6/2014 9:31:58 PM)
Hi All Id just like to make some quick points on others points raised during this thread. Without checking; from memory, The French General Staff calculated that it would take 8 weeks to get a tank corps through the Ardenne (using there own staff capabilies as revealed at manoeuvres no doubt) and planned there defence accordingly. The Germans got through much quicker in force cathing them wrong footed. This Highlights the superiority of German staffwork visavee French and especially Russian where they had the staff culled. It takes I believe about 8 years to train a general how to manoeuvre a division. Also relevant to C&C, the Soviet tanks had no radios!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is why Soviet tank formations were so much less effective than the equivalent German units. They operated to prearranged inflexable plans. And couldnt respond to changed circumstances. When comparing tanks its not just about armour and gun there is also vision, reliability speed and general workmanship for example the t34 engine is directly bolted to the floor and by all accounts it vibrates severly resulting in a fatigued driver also it has relatively poor vision (no cupola). As an analogy A boxer can be strong, tough but if hes wearing blinkers and his feet hurt hes not so good. The pause before Stalingrad was I believe because the original objective was to reach (and block) the Volga, not take stalingrad. I guess they then took 2 weeks or so to build up the stores/troops required to assault a city. I do recall reading in Ian Hoggs book 'Guns' that the soviet artillery 'divisions' guns were taken from the normal infantry divisions but I dont know if this deficit was made good before the end of the war. Given this is soviet artillery production in the game too high? German staff work was always excellent throughout the war. They would never have considered invading Russia with an army they couldnt supply (dont froget they had a dress rehersal in WW1). True they couldnt manage fuel ammo and winter clothing together, but fuel and ammo no problem. Having read Paul Carells "Hitler's war on Russia" It is interesting to note that it contains no references to supply problems. Best Regards Chuck.

SigUp -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/6/2014 9:43:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chuckles The pause before Stalingrad was I believe because the original objective was to reach (and block) the Volga, not take stalingrad. I guess they then took 2 weeks or so to build up the stores/troops required to assault a city. Nope, the main problem was fuel. The Germans didn't have the capacity to supply both the drive into the Caucasus and the attack towards Volga. Therefore 6th Army sat in the steppes without fuel for nearly two weeks. Hitler prioritized the Caucasus and the Soviets were able to strengthen defenses around Kalach and further delay the German advance towards Stalingrad.

Txema -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/6/2014 9:52:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Pelton The combat engine simply does not reflex the historical non-surrender combat ratio's at all. 1941 6 to 1 1942 5 to 1 1943 4 to 1 1944-45 3 to 1 The in game ratios are 1.5 to 1 starting in September 1942 which is simply way way off historical. Hi Pelton, Could you please tell us the in game ratios for each year? Do you think that the in game ratios are accurate for 1941? How do you calculate them? Thank you very much for all your testing work to improve WitE !! Txema

chuckfourth -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/6/2014 9:58:33 PM)
Hi Signup That surprises me as the infantry could have walked, do you have a reference for that fuel problem? Best Regards Chuck.

SigUp -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/6/2014 10:07:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chuckles Hi Signup That surprises me as the infantry could have walked, do you have a reference for that fuel problem? Best Regards Chuck. It is mentioned in numerous works. A possibility would be the 13 volume work compiled by the history department of the German Bundeswehr called "Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg". To be more specifical it would be volume 6 sub-titled "Der globale Krieg � Die Ausweitung zum Weltkrieg und der Wechsel der Initiative 1941 bis 1943". I think an English version was published although it should be out of print by now. Perhaps Glantz also mentions it, though I can't say anything about it due to me not having read any of Glantz's work on the Stalingrad campaign.

chuckfourth -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/6/2014 10:14:48 PM)
Hi SignUp Well I don't think I'll be reading either reference cited if your not sure they said there was a fuel problem or not. You cant supply a reference where a fuel problem is definitely mentioned? best regards Chuck.

SigUp -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/6/2014 10:25:49 PM)
You misunderstood my post. I'm only not sure whether Glantz mentioned it. On the other hand I'm close to 100% positive that they were mentioned in the first work I cited. If you wish I can try to get this book at the library and look for the passage in order to cite it. [;)] EDIT: I found a nice post in a forum with many citations etc. Do you understand German? If not I'll translate / paraphrase the main points quickly.

chuckfourth -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/6/2014 10:48:48 PM)
Hi Signup No meed for a library trip, no I don't speak German. I don't really want to turn this into a logistics debate either in this thread so Ill decline the paraphrases also Lets see how Pelton gets on with his C&C discussion Best regards Chuck.

SigUp -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/6/2014 11:09:24 PM)
Well, nevertheless I've quick translated that informative post for interested people to see: quote: The official in charge for fuel matters in the OKH, Major Pollex, warned numerous times during the planning of "Fall Blau" that with the fuel provided the success of the offensive could be precluded with mathematical certainty (cmp. Wagner, 1977, p.219). [...] The Quartermaster-general Wagner also had concerns regarding the transportation. [...] Already seven days after the beginning of Blau (4th July 1942) XXXX. Panzer Corps was so restricted by fuel shortages, that only parts of the corps were able to attack in order to attempt the encirclement of the Soviet forces. Four days later the leading elements of 4th Panzer Army had to halt at the Tikhaya Sozna for the same reason. Part of the reason for LSSAH's withdrawal was the doubt that the Germans could guarantee its mobility due to fuel shortages (cmp. Krumpelt, 1968, p.205). After the offensive was split up in late July the Caucasus forces had to require transportation space from Army Group B. Due to this measure alone the entire 6th Army lost its mobility for six full days in July (cmp. Wegner, 1990, p.892). So only a short time into Blau fuel shortages were a constant companion of the German forces and not only restricted freedom of operations, but also gave the Soviets valuable time. Therefore the Red Army was not only able to detach themselves from the Wehrmacht, but also strengthen defensive lines and deliver reinforcements to the front. The fuel shortages were not only due to the problem of the initial provision of fuel, but also due to transportation. The major rail lines in the South of the Soviet Union all converged at the bottle neck of Rostov and the lines towards Stalingrad and Caucasus were not built up very well. They were mostly single track and moreover left with significant damages needing repairs. In addition personnel and material shortages significantly reduced the performance of the German rail system. The Germans only reached 50% of the calculated capacity (cmp. Doerr, 1955, p.30). Therefore the Germans had to resupply their troops by air which provided a certain lift, but didn't correct the problem itself. The chief of transportation of the Wehrmacht, General Gercke, was asked for his opinion about the effects of the splitting of the offensive on the transportation system. His verdict was very explicit: a simultaneous supply of both spearheads was impossible. The available vehicle transportation space was not sufficient to compensate the efficiency drop of the rail system. Therefore he advised against the splitting of the offensive (cmp. Bork, 1953, p.32). Initially 11th Army was to cross the Straits of Kerch after conclusion of the battles on the Crimea and support the drive into the Caucasus. Yet a reason for the cancellation of this operation was the capacity overload of the rail network (cmp. Doerr, 1955, p. 31). How terrible the logistical situation was, is reflected in the fact that in the course of the offensive the trains were backed up to Silesia. That's around 2000 kilometres to the west (cmp. Philippi; Heim, 1962, p.163). Over 1.000 trains were affected by these hold-ups, a record number at that time (cmp. Rhode, 1971, p.158). The train lines beyond Rostov meanwhile had a capacity of 12 trains per day (cmp. Bork, 1953, p.33). General Doerr, during Blau Chief of Staff of LII. AK, came to the conclusion that the hold-ups of the fuel supply alone was enough to wreck the campaign (cmp. Doerr, 1955, p.31). The catastrophic supply situation led to Major Weinknecht, quartermaster of Army Group B at that time, demanding the withdrawal of 6th Army and 3rd Rumanian Army to a position around Don - Donets. His concerns were rebutted and a month later he was relieved of duty (cmp. Krumpelt, 1968, p. 206). Especially problematic in all this is, that already in 1941 the demands of the logistical planners to adjust the operations to the capabilities of the supply system was ignored. A year later the Germans till hadn't learned out of this experience and the consequence were borne by the ordinary soldiers. Literature: Bork, Max: Comments on Russian Railroads an Highways, USAREUR, 1953 Doerr, Hans: Der Feldzug nach Stalingrad, Frankfurt/Main 1955 Halder, Franz: Kriegstagebuch. T�gliche Aufzeichnungen des Chefs des Generalstabes des Heeres 1939-1942. Hrsg. v. Arbeitskreis f�r Wehrforschung. Bearb. v. Hans-Adolf Jacobsen, Band III, 1964 Hartmann, Christian: Halder. Generalstabschef Hitlers 1938-1942, Paderborn 2010 Krumpelt, Ihno: Das Material und die Kriegf�hrung, Frankfurt/Main 1968 Philippi, Alfred; Heim, Ferdinand: Der Feldzug gegen Sowjetrussland 1941 bis 1945 - ein operativer �berblick, Stuttgart 1962 Rhode, Horst: Das deutsche Wehrmachttransportwesen im Zweiten Weltkrieg, Stuttgart 1971 Wagner, Elisabeth: Meine Erlebnisse nach dem 20. Juli 1944. Die Zeit von Juli 1944 bis September 1945, in Erinnerung an den Generalquartiermeister Eduard Wagner. M�nchen 1977 Wegner, Bernd: Hitlers zweiter Feldzug. Milit�rische Konzeption und strategische Grundlagen, in: Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg, Band 6, S. 761-1102 Source

Flaviusx -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/6/2014 11:56:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SigUp You misunderstood my post. I'm only not sure whether Glantz mentioned it. On the other hand I'm close to 100% positive that they were mentioned in the first work I cited. If you wish I can try to get this book at the library and look for the passage in order to cite it. [;)] EDIT: I found a nice post in a forum with many citations etc. Do you understand German? If not I'll translate / paraphrase the main points quickly. Glantz mentioned it.

Peltonx -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/7/2014 1:38:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SigUp Well, nevertheless I've quick translated that informative post for interested people to see: quote: The official in charge for fuel matters in the OKH, Major Pollex, warned numerous times during the planning of "Fall Blau" that with the fuel provided the success of the offensive could be precluded with mathematical certainty (cmp. Wagner, 1977, p.219). [...] The Quartermaster-general Wagner also had concerns regarding the transportation. [...] Already seven days after the beginning of Blau (4th July 1942) XXXX. Panzer Corps was so restricted by fuel shortages, that only parts of the corps were able to attack in order to attempt the encirclement of the Soviet forces. Four days later the leading elements of 4th Panzer Army had to halt at the Tikhaya Sozna for the same reason. Part of the reason for LSSAH's withdrawal was the doubt that the Germans could guarantee its mobility due to fuel shortages (cmp. Krumpelt, 1968, p.205). After the offensive was split up in late July the Caucasus forces had to require transportation space from Army Group B. Due to this measure alone the entire 6th Army lost its mobility for six full days in July (cmp. Wegner, 1990, p.892). So only a short time into Blau fuel shortages were a constant companion of the German forces and not only restricted freedom of operations, but also gave the Soviets valuable time. Therefore the Red Army was not only able to detach themselves from the Wehrmacht, but also strengthen defensive lines and deliver reinforcements to the front. The fuel shortages were not only due to the problem of the initial provision of fuel, but also due to transportation. The major rail lines in the South of the Soviet Union all converged at the bottle neck of Rostov and the lines towards Stalingrad and Caucasus were not built up very well. They were mostly single track and moreover left with significant damages needing repairs. In addition personnel and material shortages significantly reduced the performance of the German rail system. The Germans only reached 50% of the calculated capacity (cmp. Doerr, 1955, p.30). Therefore the Germans had to resupply their troops by air which provided a certain lift, but didn't correct the problem itself. The chief of transportation of the Wehrmacht, General Gercke, was asked for his opinion about the effects of the splitting of the offensive on the transportation system. His verdict was very explicit: a simultaneous supply of both spearheads was impossible. The available vehicle transportation space was not sufficient to compensate the efficiency drop of the rail system. Therefore he advised against the splitting of the offensive (cmp. Bork, 1953, p.32). Initially 11th Army was to cross the Straits of Kerch after conclusion of the battles on the Crimea and support the drive into the Caucasus. Yet a reason for the cancellation of this operation was the capacity overload of the rail network (cmp. Doerr, 1955, p. 31). How terrible the logistical situation was, is reflected in the fact that in the course of the offensive the trains were backed up to Silesia. That's around 2000 kilometres to the west (cmp. Philippi; Heim, 1962, p.163). Over 1.000 trains were affected by these hold-ups, a record number at that time (cmp. Rhode, 1971, p.158). The train lines beyond Rostov meanwhile had a capacity of 12 trains per day (cmp. Bork, 1953, p.33). General Doerr, during Blau Chief of Staff of LII. AK, came to the conclusion that the hold-ups of the fuel supply alone was enough to wreck the campaign (cmp. Doerr, 1955, p.31). The catastrophic supply situation led to Major Weinknecht, quartermaster of Army Group B at that time, demanding the withdrawal of 6th Army and 3rd Rumanian Army to a position around Don - Donets. His concerns were rebutted and a month later he was relieved of duty (cmp. Krumpelt, 1968, p. 206). Especially problematic in all this is, that already in 1941 the demands of the logistical planners to adjust the operations to the capabilities of the supply system was ignored. A year later the Germans till hadn't learned out of this experience and the consequence were borne by the ordinary soldiers. Literature: Bork, Max: Comments on Russian Railroads an Highways, USAREUR, 1953 Doerr, Hans: Der Feldzug nach Stalingrad, Frankfurt/Main 1955 Halder, Franz: Kriegstagebuch. T�gliche Aufzeichnungen des Chefs des Generalstabes des Heeres 1939-1942. Hrsg. v. Arbeitskreis f�r Wehrforschung. Bearb. v. Hans-Adolf Jacobsen, Band III, 1964 Hartmann, Christian: Halder. Generalstabschef Hitlers 1938-1942, Paderborn 2010 Krumpelt, Ihno: Das Material und die Kriegf�hrung, Frankfurt/Main 1968 Philippi, Alfred; Heim, Ferdinand: Der Feldzug gegen Sowjetrussland 1941 bis 1945 - ein operativer �berblick, Stuttgart 1962 Rhode, Horst: Das deutsche Wehrmachttransportwesen im Zweiten Weltkrieg, Stuttgart 1971 Wagner, Elisabeth: Meine Erlebnisse nach dem 20. Juli 1944. Die Zeit von Juli 1944 bis September 1945, in Erinnerung an den Generalquartiermeister Eduard Wagner. M�nchen 1977 Wegner, Bernd: Hitlers zweiter Feldzug. Milit�rische Konzeption und strategische Grundlagen, in: Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg, Band 6, S. 761-1102 Source Again dispite the logistics shortage the ratio was 5 to 1 in 1942 and wite's combat ratio is 2 to 1 in 1942. So for the 50th time the combat engine is not reflexing history and it has nothing to do with logistics. Changing the subject does not and never will fix the core problem with the combat engine. But people will keep on talking about logistics and the combat engine will keep on puking out non-historical ratio's. Shhh some thing never change. Ignoring the problem does not make it go away. [image]local://upfiles/20387/00DAFF81DA3449908DBDE845E2BEA53E.jpg[/image]

Flaviusx -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/7/2014 3:42:58 AM)
Pelton, I strongly suspect that the problems I have with the combat model are not the same ones you have. You keep talking about these "ratios." Me, I'm wondering where the attacker losses are. That includes losses the Germans don't incur as attackers, btw. The ratios you are looking for can be met and indeed wildly exceeded so long as your pet Germans are the only ones ever attacking. The combat system is wildly biased in favor of the attacker. I am doubting you are troubled by this. Your real issue is that both sides can abuse this. You'd probably be completely okay with it if it was just the Germans. Basically, you've got this incredible axe to grind and it makes it hard to take your position here very seriously.

Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/7/2014 3:55:56 AM)
quote: Having read Paul Carells "Hitler's war on Russia" It is interesting to note that it contains no references to supply problems. Isn't Paul Carell a pseudonym for Paul Carl Schmidt who was a high ranking Nazi? I haven't read his book but because an author doesn't mention supply problems on the eastern front doesn't necessarily mean that they didn't exist.

chuckfourth -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/7/2014 3:59:21 AM)
Hi SignUp Point taken But I should say Pelton is correct that using logistic constraints in place of 'correct' Combat engine modelling to achieve a 'historical' result is the major issue. For my part I think refining the battle algorithm as I suggested above would go a long way towards giving the 'correct' combat ratios Pelton mentions. I actually stopped playing when I discovered that the soviet first turn rail movement could be used to 'port' units into blocking positions making a mockery of the soviet first turn movement restrictions. For me it was the 'final' straw For now I just look in at the forum occasionally. I hope wite2 addresses these problems. I remain hopeful largely because of the quality of the forum contributors. Best Regards Chuck

Flaviusx -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/7/2014 4:10:11 AM)
Chuckles, Pelton is arguing against a straw man. Attempts to fix the game's logistics were never intended to fix the combat model. We ought therefore not be surprised when solutions meant to address one set of problems fail to deal with the others. Of course they won't. I mean, duh. Similarly, you could fix the combat model and if you left the logistical system as is, the game would still be borked. You need to do both. We really haven't come to grips with either. And WITE 1.0 is basically finished at this point, so it's all up to how things shake out in WITW and beyond. The best thing Pelton can do at this point is to test the hell out of WITW and make sure the next game advances the state of the art.

Peltonx -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/7/2014 4:12:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Flaviusx Pelton, I strongly suspect that the problems I have with the combat model are not the same ones you have. You keep talking about these "ratios." Me, I'm wondering where the attacker losses are. That includes losses the Germans don't incur as attackers, btw. The ratios you are looking for can be met and indeed wildly exceeded so long as your pet Germans are the only ones ever attacking. The combat system is wildly biased in favor of the attacker. I am doubting you are troubled by this. Your real issue is that both sides can abuse this. You'd probably be completely okay with it if it was just the Germans. Basically, you've got this incredible axe to grind and it makes it hard to take your position here very seriously. No as I have posted in allot of AAR's over the 2 + yrs, all personal attacks aside kind Sir. September 42+ is less then 1/2 of historical, this is simply the ratio's battle after battle. The current combat engine does not reflect historical, this is old news as you know and have known for a very long time. This issue is old, yet gets ignored. Again for the 51st time logistics can be tweaked more, but its not going to change the combat ratio. This is a corner stone issue that will have to be addressed at some time, putting it off longer is not going to mke matters better only worse. The current engine I believe can easly do this.

Peltonx -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/7/2014 4:15:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown quote: Having read Paul Carells "Hitler's war on Russia" It is interesting to note that it contains no references to supply problems. Isn't Paul Carell a pseudonym for Paul Carl Schmidt who was a high ranking Nazi? I haven't read his book but because an author doesn't mention supply problems on the eastern front doesn't necessarily mean that they didn't existed. Supply problem did exist Bozo, but yet the combat ratio's were what they were. So tweaking the logistics system is not going to improve the provem. Keep up the good work.

Flaviusx -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/7/2014 4:18:29 AM)
Pelton, you are being totally unrealistic about this. The combat model is done. At least for WITE 1.0. So in fact is the rest of the game. Forget it. It's over. If you really want to improve it, get cracking on your WITW testing. It is the combat model in WITW that will be the basis for future improvements and evolution going into WITE 2.0. What you do over there is a million times more important than any grousing you do here.

Peltonx -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/7/2014 4:22:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chuckles Hi SignUp Point taken But I should say Pelton is correct that using logistic constraints in place of 'correct' Combat engine modelling to achieve a 'historical' result is the major issue. For my part I think refining the battle algorithm as I suggested above would go a long way towards giving the 'correct' combat ratios Pelton mentions. I actually stopped playing when I discovered that the soviet first turn rail movement could be used to 'port' units into blocking positions making a mockery of the soviet first turn movement restrictions. For me it was the 'final' straw For now I just look in at the forum occasionally. I hope wite2 addresses these problems. I remain hopeful largely because of the quality of the forum contributors. Best Regards Chuck The main reason I keep coming back to this is because of the 100's of people like yourself. There is a huge disconnect with the combat results and historical results- this makes the game WW1ish instead of WW2ish. This has driven away allot of future playing/paying customers 1. Game should end in a draw 50% of the time, 45% SHC win and 5% GHC win all things being equal. 2. It should be a struggle, punch and counter punch. 3. It should still reflex historical ratios in the air on the ground and at sea, UNLESS the players are not equal. 2by3 has done and amazing job in detail, but the combat engine is a failure todate. Logistics tweak are still needed, but will not fix the core issue.

Peltonx -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/7/2014 4:32:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Flaviusx Pelton, you are being totally unrealistic about this. The combat model is done. At least for WITE 1.0. So in fact is the rest of the game. Forget it. It's over. If you really want to improve it, get cracking on your WITW testing. It is the combat model in WITW that will be the basis for future improvements and evolution going into WITE 2.0. What you do over there is a million times more important than any grousing you do here. You are mistaken as many have been at my methods to date, what was the last issue I lost/wrong on? When and if I can say the combat engine is prefect. People will know I am not full of BS. You can go back in this thread and see how many people agree with what I have said. This adds to my agreement in any future debate on this issue as it is simply true. The world we live in now is very different from 10 yrs ago. I might be 50, but I see the changes. With the multimedia many times the future was yesterday.

chuckfourth -> RE: The core problem with WitE+ (1/7/2014 4:56:48 AM)
Hi Pelton These Forums seem always to contain partisans playing the man instead of the ball and dumbing down the game so the Germans don't get an advantage. Congratulations on putting up with them and for so long and for your work here in the Forum. All Power to Pelton Best Regards Chuck.

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 next > >>

Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

2.140625