ASW combat

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Finarfïn -> ASW combat (3/1/2014 5:05:13 AM)
Hello, I have missed a thing or it's a bug but I have 2 naval combats with subs surprising CW CP where i can't use surprise points to increase sub's result (but i can decrease results against them). I haven't got a save but i think it can be easily reproductible. Fin

markb50k -> RE: ASW combat (3/1/2014 1:49:45 PM)
Are there escorts? This may be just the phase where they preemptively attack the subs. Only they shoot in this phase so your only logical use of surprise points at that point is to lower their results Once you get past that you'll be able to raise your results My theory

Centuur -> RE: ASW combat (3/1/2014 2:38:36 PM)
During submarine combat, the enemy first shoots at the subs (so you first have to decide if you want to reduce the effectiveness of the escorts, using surprise points). After losses are taken by the SUB's, you should be able to use remaining surprise points to increase losses on the convoys. So that comes later...

Finarfïn -> RE: ASW combat (3/1/2014 7:20:37 PM)
hello, so i clearly missed something because i can't find any reference in my RAC book to a prefire (except for CoiF which is not active). In the example given with sub combat(11.5.10) the SUB attacks with there full power even with 1D 3A from the escort. But i apologize i'm not good at reading/writing in english so i can be wrong. Fin

Extraneous -> RE: ASW combat (3/1/2014 7:23:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Centuur During submarine combat, the enemy first shoots at the subs (so you first have to decide if you want to reduce the effectiveness of the escorts, using surprise points). After losses are taken by the SUB's, you should be able to use remaining surprise points to increase losses on the convoys. So that comes later... I know you are thinking about ASW units not ASW factors. quote: ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf 11.5.10 Submarine combat In a submarine combat, each side’s SUBs (not any other units) will fight the opposing side’s included non-SUB units. Example: It is fine weather in 1942 and Heinz has gained 10 surprise points in a naval combat. He has spent 4 of them to choose a submarine combat. He has 2 SUBs included, totaling 8 attack factors. Jay has 10 convoy points, an SCS and a 2 air-to-sea factor NAV included. Jay attacks with his 6 ASW factors (2 for the SCS, 2 for the NAV and 2 for the convoys because it is 1942) against 2 enemy “ships”. He gets 1 ‘D’ result and 3 ‘A’ results. Heinz rolls against his SUBs’ defence factors to determine the outcome. Then he attacks the convoys with 8 attack factors against 2 ships (remember, the escorts don’t count). He gets 2 ‘D’ and 3 ‘A’ results. Jay rolls a 5 for the first damage die against a convoy. One of the convoys is damaged. Heinz spends 3 surprise points to roll the second damage die against the same convoy. Jay rolls a 3, sinking it. Heinz spends his last 3 surprise points to inflict the first ‘A’ result on the SCS. Jay rolls against the SCS unit’s defence factors to see if it suffers the result. The second ‘A’ result is applied successfully against the remaining convoy. The last ‘A’ result cannot be applied because there are no convoys that can suffer further results and Heinz has run out of surprise points. No German SUB has 8 attack factors. quote: ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf ASW units in naval combat ASW units have a special pre-fire attack against included enemy SUBs (only) in each surface or submarine round of naval combat as follows. Total the attack factors of all included ASW units. Add in all included ASW air-to-sea factors (modified by weather ~ see 8.2.3) on that side as well. All other included units on that side are ignored for the pre-fire attack.

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: ASW combat (3/1/2014 9:31:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Finarfïn Hello, I have missed a thing or it's a bug but I have 2 naval combats with subs surprising CW CP where i can't use surprise points to increase sub's result (but i can decrease results against them). I haven't got a save but i think it can be easily reproductible. Fin There are many buttons on the Spend Surprise Points form. Each button is for one of the ways you can spend your points. However, the buttons are not all enabled at the start of a naval combat (or port attack). Instead the program only enables those buttons for the current subphase. And even then, only if you have enough surprise points available. So, at the start of the air-to-air combat subphase, the buttons for changing the odds for air-to-air combat are enabled. Similarly for the anti-air combat subphase. For the naval combat itself, usually only one button is enabled - the one for the current subphase. That seems to be the case that you are describing.

Finarfïn -> RE: ASW combat (3/1/2014 11:13:48 PM)
Hello, thanks to take your time to answer :). I agree but as far as i understand RAC, but i can be wrong of course, Sub shot and ASW shot are made in the same time (like surface combat) so options given to this two kinds of combat have to be the same. Of course IF CoiF is in use things are differents and then an ASW prefire occur just by ASW units. But when you choose optional rule for me Coif is not possible so what? For Extraneous in the example german player have 2 SUB ;). Fin

Extraneous -> RE: ASW combat (3/2/2014 1:42:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf Spending surprise points 4pts Avoid combat 4pts Choose combat type 3pts Select enemy target (per target) 2pts Increase your column on naval combat chart (per column) 2pts Decrease opponent’s column (per column) 2pts Increase your air-to-air combat value (per point) 2pts Decrease opponent’s air to air combat value (per point) 2pts Increase your anti-aircraft fire (per column) 2pts Decrease opponent’s anti-aircraft fire (per column) quote: ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf 11.5.10 Submarine combat The non-SUB side uses these factors to attack the SUBs. You do this in the same way as a surface naval combat except that you use the ASW row of the naval combat chart and only count the SUBs as targets. The SUBs also attack in the same way as a surface naval combat except that they use the SUB row of the naval combat chart and only the convoy points count as ships (1 ship per 5 convoy points). It sounds like the game is not allowing an increase to the SUB row of the naval combat chart. Could it be because the rule reads "Increase your column on naval combat chart" and "Decrease opponent’s column"?

paulderynck -> RE: ASW combat (3/3/2014 4:17:19 AM)
In which row do you increase or decrease the columns?

Finarfïn -> RE: ASW combat (3/3/2014 4:50:34 AM)
Hello, I'm sorry i'm not good in english so maybe i don't understand in the right way. When i have to manage a suface naval combat i can, if i have enought surprise point choose to increase my result or decrease opponent result, even a mix between both is possible with enough SP. As far as i understand RAC, Sub combat have to be resolved the same way. Separate ASW>SUB and then SUB>CP seems to be part of CoiF option. But once again i can be wrong. Also i know this is only a minor trouble (i'm not even sure it is a bug or a "bad" coding of the RAC), i understand some other majors trouble have to be corrected before this will be checked but i prefere to report things i feel strange or broken. Fin

Extraneous -> RE: ASW combat (3/3/2014 11:40:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Finarfïn Hello, I'm sorry i'm not good in english so maybe i don't understand in the right way. 1. When i have to manage a suface naval combat i can, if i have enought surprise point choose to increase my result or decrease opponent result, even a mix between both is possible with enough SP. 2. As far as i understand RAC, Sub combat have to be resolved the same way. Separate ASW>SUB and then SUB>CP seems to be part of CoiF option. But once again i can be wrong. Also i know this is only a minor trouble (i'm not even sure it is a bug or a "bad" coding of the RAC), i understand some other majors trouble have to be corrected before this will be checked but i prefere to report things i feel strange or broken. Fin 1. Correct. 2. Correct submarine combat and surface combat should be resolved the same way. paulderynck wants to know which row do you click on to increase your results or decrease your opponent results.

Finarfïn -> RE: ASW combat (3/3/2014 6:23:57 PM)
Ah ok:), joyce of translating things... I'm at work i'll sent screenshots in the evening (after my wife let me play ;p). Fin

paulderynck -> RE: ASW combat (3/3/2014 7:05:39 PM)
Are you the phasing player or the non-phasing? The reason I ask is that MWiF follows the sequence of play and if you intercepted or searched during the opponents move, then your losses come first, but if it was your move then the opponent's losses come first. So in the first case you would be able to first affect the column used against you and then later be able to affect the column against the opponent. This order is reversed for the second case. Uploading a zip of the game save to this thread would be helpful.

Finarfïn -> RE: ASW combat (3/3/2014 9:18:12 PM)
I'll post a saved game with screenshots this evening. Now i'm at my office, if i begin to play when i'm supposed to work my wife won't trust me when i will tell her that my job is hard [;)]. Fin

Finarfïn -> RE: ASW combat (3/4/2014 6:20:26 PM)
Hello, here a SUB combat in Italian coast (dice choosen for this to happen) [image]local://upfiles/47186/D1C737EAE8934FBEB85CA01236447F8B.jpg[/image]

Finarfïn -> RE: ASW combat (3/4/2014 6:38:51 PM)
As you can see only decrease ennemy's.. is available, as someone previously said increase your naval... is available after your results are implemented. But as i see it now, the values are not changed. Despite SUB have to manage results against them before to make their shots they strike at full power (for exemple even if they suffer an abort they return fire with full power on CP). But it's strange as surface combat have a different way to manage (you can increase or decrease the same step or sub step). So i don't think it's a bug but more a missunderstanding (once again from me maybe) or something else, like something for a future implementation of Coif i don't known. I understand whatever this is a bug or not it's not a P1. I post here the saved game

Centuur -> RE: ASW combat (3/4/2014 6:47:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Finarfïn As you can see only decrease ennemy's.. is available, as someone previously said increase your naval... is available after your results are implemented. But as i see it now, the values are not changed. Despite SUB have to manage results against them before to make their shots they strike at full power (for exemple even if they suffer an abort they return fire with full power on CP). But it's strange as surface combat have a different way to manage (you can increase or decrease the same step or sub step). So i don't think it's a bug but more a missunderstanding (once again from me maybe) or something else, like something for a future implementation of Coif i don't known. I understand whatever this is a bug or not it's not a P1. I post here the saved game I think this is done to make sure that if the CoiF rules are coded, the naval combat sequence itself doesn't have to be changed...

Dabrion -> RE: ASW combat (3/4/2014 7:04:18 PM)
I think this is because increasing your column would be a noop. The D already sinks the lone CP. Further damage does not translate to the escorts on sub attack. This would be a greedy solution and kind of does take into account that increasing the column makes sense if you sink all CP and have enough enough surprise points to also pick a target after the increase. Then the column increase could net you a better result on the selected target.

Finarfïn -> RE: ASW combat (3/4/2014 8:21:04 PM)
I you look to the screenshot you see that allied have enough SP to increase and select a target if they want to. But it's just an example, i have another where germans sub can hit a lot more CW's CP. By the way, as i have said above things seem to work properly as SUB attacks are made with full strengh (no prefire) only have to think if you want to keep SP for next step or not. Fin

Dabrion -> RE: ASW combat (3/4/2014 8:34:51 PM)
Alright, you mean what Paul explained? Didn't understand that..

Finarfïn -> RE: ASW combat (3/4/2014 9:44:38 PM)
I have been disturbed by the difference between surface combat and sub combat. I apologize for my mistake. In Surface combat the two options are available at the same time, same step. In a sub combat, as you can see the choose are only available in different "step" but the final result is, in my point of view, correct with simultaneous (and unmodified by other side combat result) fires. But i think it's not the better way (just my opinion no offense for anyone), even with Coif future implementation, because it too close to naval air combat in which we can spend SP in each step (A2A, flak, A2S, etc...) with a consequence for the next step (less bombers, less air factors to press attack,etc...). And once again it's in the worst case a minor burden. A good or experienced player won't be disturbed like i was. Fin

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: ASW combat (3/14/2014 11:30:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Finarfïn I have been disturbed by the difference between surface combat and sub combat. I apologize for my mistake. In Surface combat the two options are available at the same time, same step. In a sub combat, as you can see the choose are only available in different "step" but the final result is, in my point of view, correct with simultaneous (and unmodified by other side combat result) fires. But i think it's not the better way (just my opinion no offense for anyone), even with Coif future implementation, because it too close to naval air combat in which we can spend SP in each step (A2A, flak, A2S, etc...) with a consequence for the next step (less bombers, less air factors to press attack,etc...). And once again it's in the worst case a minor burden. A good or experienced player won't be disturbed like i was. Fin I agree with you. I'll put this on my list of things to fix the next time I am working on the Naval Combat subphases code.

Finarfïn -> RE: ASW combat (3/15/2014 2:57:13 AM)
thks :)

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: ASW combat (10/10/2014 2:53:34 AM)
After rereading all of this, I now disagree with you (and with myself from what I wrote in March).[:)] The sequence of play in naval Submarine combat is: NCspASWD, // RAC 11.5.10, 22.4.19, & 11.5.6. NCspSubA, // RAC 11.5.10 & 11.5.6. NCspASWA, // RAC 11.5.10, 22.4.19, & 11.5.6. NCspSubD, // RAC 11.5.10 & 11.5.6. The program treats each of these subphases separately as far as letting the player use surprise points. So only one choice is made available in each of these 4 subphases. I think that is correct. Otherwise, you would have to have 4 choices - and the form doesn't really have room for all of that.

paulderynck -> RE: ASW combat (10/10/2014 4:12:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dabrion Alright, you mean what Paul explained? Didn't understand that.. If I ever explained anything on this page, I now deny all knowledge. I have no idea what is being discussed here.

Courtenay -> RE: ASW combat (10/10/2014 5:32:27 AM)
When playing convoys in flames, combat charts can be consulted in any one of four steps: Phasing player conducts ASW pre-attack Non-phasing player conducts ASW pre-attack Phasing player attacks Non-phasing player attacks. I think this is the correct order, but am not certain. However, you do get to conduct your pre-attack before the other side makes its normal attack. What I do not understand is why this causes submarine combat and surface naval combat to be treated differently, as these four phases can happen in both surface naval combat and submarine combat, as the example on page 168 of RAC makes clear. Edited: This is wrong. See corrected post down below.

Finarfïn -> RE: ASW combat (10/10/2014 7:33:15 AM)
Hello, Not sure on that point but as i 'm still a novice this isn't a surprise for me ;). Quoting RAC 11.5.10 " ....If each side has both SUBs and other targets, there will be 2 separate combats...." for me it's look like if both side have SUB and CP (maybe sometimes in med? otherwise it's a rare case i think) you have 2 combats so 1 with NCspASWD, NCspSubA, and another for the other SUB combat. Also 11.5.10 "..The SUBs also attack in the same way as a surface naval combat except that they use the SUB row of the naval combat chart and only the convoy points count as ships...." As i have said before i was surprised because Surface and SUB combat are managed two differents ways. But as i 've said results are corrects (simultaneous fire) so it's just a cosmetic matter for me. As i've said before i'm still (and will ever be ;) ) a noob in this game ( so many rules, particular cases,etc...) so if i'm wrong it will be not a surprise to me ;). Furthermore, i have less time to play a newborn boy is a very loud and combesome things ;) and i've to managed several changes in my job (news responsabilities, things to learn, etc... great thing but also less time for my private life). Fin

Larry Smith -> RE: ASW combat (10/10/2014 4:28:45 PM)
If it was the lack of ASW pre-fire combat that was confusing you, Convoys In Flames has not yet been implemented in MWiF. I only skimmed the posts, but I got the gist that that was what was confusing you. There was a bug a while back where some units not presently in use were showing up for the initial set-up - such as an ASW unit for the CW - but that was fixed back in June, I think.

Courtenay -> RE: ASW combat (10/10/2014 5:19:03 PM)
No, what was confusing him was my post was wrong. If both sides have convoys and subs in a sea zone, even without Convoys in Flames, there will be four rolls on the naval combat chart: One side's subs against the other side's convoy points and the other side's escorts versus the first side's subs, and the reverse. If playing with Convoys in flames, one could have to use look up tables six times, as one adds pre-fire. MWiF's interface is not designed to handle four separate naval table look ups, so it does them one at a time. My apologies for not understanding what was going on, and giving bad information. See my signature.

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