RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J)

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (Full Version)

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ny59giants -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/18/2014 1:15:48 PM)
Planning - I hope you have removed your APs that convert to APAs in 3/43 from active service. Mine are all at port "X." You will need all the assault shipping you can get in '43. There are some Brit/CW that go from APs to LCI about that time to. Double check to ensure that all your Dominion Troop Class and Pacific Troop Class xAKs to xAPs are converted. For me, these two classes are my workhorse for 42 in moving troops around (mostly in Pacific to Aussie route with points in between). You will get a trickle of the USAT EC2 Class xAKs that can convert to xAPs starting in 2/42. You will eventually be swimming in Liberty ships for your xAKs. What do you plan to do with your Marines?? As you well know, these guys win where ever they go. [sm=00000028.gif]

obvert -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/18/2014 2:49:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ny59giants Planning - I hope you have removed your APs that convert to APAs in 3/43 from active service. Mine are all at port "X." You will need all the assault shipping you can get in '43. There are some Brit/CW that go from APs to LCI about that time to. Double check to ensure that all your Dominion Troop Class and Pacific Troop Class xAKs to xAPs are converted. For me, these two classes are my workhorse for 42 in moving troops around (mostly in Pacific to Aussie route with points in between). You will get a trickle of the USAT EC2 Class xAKs that can convert to xAPs starting in 2/42. You will eventually be swimming in Liberty ships for your xAKs. What do you plan to do with your Marines?? As you well know, these guys win where ever they go. [sm=00000028.gif] Most APs are sitting in port. A select few are needed for transporting troops, and are moving. Some I may have to use before 43 to get back bases critical for the VP ratio, like Diego. Possibly Colombo. I have been converting all available xAK to xAP. The AMC that convert to LCI ships are all sitting around. Marines will be involved, but maybe not in the first few invasions. I've got the first in No Pac now as it has been ready for Boomerang, but may start re-prepping once that window closes for good. I'll send the second to So Pac and it may be used to get back to Western OZ. If I do decide to go for Colombo in 42 then the Marines will go there. I have to write everything out but need to look through the queue first to see exactly how much will be available in the near future. I've just been going through the list of bases with high Allied multipliers. Thank God for Canberra and Krasnoyarsk!! [:D]

obvert -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/18/2014 3:08:54 PM)
HIGH ALLIED MULTIPLIERS Here is at least a partial list of bases with higher Allied multipliers. Does anyone know of others I missed? I've just started building the Chungking airfield. I'll be able to hold the base until 1/42, the question is will it have decent supply to get full points? Sent two more engineers units to Canberra to max that. Noumea will get a division soon and lots of support to start building now that the invasion bonus is finished and I can see what's coming a bit better. Interesting that the entire Solomons along with a lot of the New Guinea bases are x2. That I guess means in a fight against AV it's not a bad place to go historical, especially since Nic hasn't done much at all down there. [image]local://upfiles/37283/E830220A934E4C1199E20C9A2971DF7D.jpg[/image]

Lokasenna -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/18/2014 7:45:13 PM)
I wouldn't call a x2 a "high" multiplier, at least not in the sense that I'd go for them to stave off autovictory. You can achieve the same thing elsewhere, all other factors equal, because really you need to be working at maintaining a war of attrition at as close to a 1:1 as possible (though even up to a 1:3 is acceptable if staving off AV is your only goal). And to do that, you need to sink ships, shoot down planes, and destroy LCU devices. The game doesn't care where on the map you do this. So when weighing doing it at x2 bases against at x1 bases... just do it wherever you can succeed. There might be other factors to go after bases, though - Port Moresby is not so valuable in staving off Japanese AV, but extremely valuable in lowering Japan's VP denominator for obtaining Allied AV (although remember that a base with 0 Supply is only worth 25% of its total, and a base with 50% Supply is only worth 62.5% of its total). So that factors into more long term considerations... You also want to get at the meat of the VPs available on the map - that's some places in the SRA, the Marianas, the PI, and other strongpoints scattered around the Pacific. Basically, I'm saying don't worry about the x2 bases. The x10 ones - yeah, go for those. Worry about the x2 later if it ends up being the deciding factor between, say, the Solomons and the Marshalls. All of that said, you should totally be building up all the bases you can, even the x1 and x2. Start with the airfields! Unless you need the port capacity. Lastly, if you think he has even a small chance to take Chungking... I wouldn't build that airfield. That's a VP gift to him.

obvert -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/18/2014 8:28:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lokasenna I wouldn't call a x2 a "high" multiplier, at least not in the sense that I'd go for them to stave off autovictory. You can achieve the same thing elsewhere, all other factors equal, because really you need to be working at maintaining a war of attrition at as close to a 1:1 as possible (though even up to a 1:3 is acceptable if staving off AV is your only goal). And to do that, you need to sink ships, shoot down planes, and destroy LCU devices. The game doesn't care where on the map you do this. So when weighing doing it at x2 bases against at x1 bases... just do it wherever you can succeed. These become a 'high' multiplier in combination if I can pick up ten x2 bases and build them before the end of the year, which looks like it would not be too hard at this point. It's not Krasnoyarsk, or Noumea, but having many bases also means he can't push and take a few very high multiplier bases just before 1/43 to make a big play for AV. A lot of smaller bases fairly well built up is better. It's also a good place to fight Japan if he wants to fight there, although not so strategically important. Doing this could also put pressure on Port Moresby and/or Rabaul, which are both worth a lot to Japan. quote: There might be other factors to go after bases, though - Port Moresby is not so valuable in staving off Japanese AV, but extremely valuable in lowering Japan's VP denominator for obtaining Allied AV (although remember that a base with 0 Supply is only worth 25% of its total, and a base with 50% Supply is only worth 62.5% of its total). So that factors into more long term considerations... You also want to get at the meat of the VPs available on the map - that's some places in the SRA, the Marianas, the PI, and other strongpoints scattered around the Pacific. Basically, I'm saying don't worry about the x2 bases. The x10 ones - yeah, go for those. Worry about the x2 later if it ends up being the deciding factor between, say, the Solomons and the Marshalls. All of that said, you should totally be building up all the bases you can, even the x1 and x2. Start with the airfields! Unless you need the port capacity. Building everything now. Definitely focusing on airfields. Every bit will help! quote: Lastly, if you think he has even a small chance to take Chungking... I wouldn't build that airfield. That's a VP gift to him. It would take an all-out effort to get to Chungking before 1/43. That is now less than 8 months. He's still in the same place as two months ago when the last offensive stopped. Even with all free divisions in China, all of the air force, with SL it would take a good while to break through and then take Chungking. I did it in my game against Torsten in 6/43 without stacking limits and with a big air force there, and only got h ease because he split with 800k men to the mountains. If he does make that effort and gets it after 1/43 I'll have a whole year to deal with getting those points back. I'm building the field. [:)]

Lokasenna -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/18/2014 8:50:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obvert quote: ORIGINAL: Lokasenna I wouldn't call a x2 a "high" multiplier, at least not in the sense that I'd go for them to stave off autovictory. You can achieve the same thing elsewhere, all other factors equal, because really you need to be working at maintaining a war of attrition at as close to a 1:1 as possible (though even up to a 1:3 is acceptable if staving off AV is your only goal). And to do that, you need to sink ships, shoot down planes, and destroy LCU devices. The game doesn't care where on the map you do this. So when weighing doing it at x2 bases against at x1 bases... just do it wherever you can succeed. These become a 'high' multiplier in combination if I can pick up ten x2 bases and build them before the end of the year, which looks like it would not be too hard at this point. It's not Krasnoyarsk, or Noumea, but having many bases also means he can't push and take a few very high multiplier bases just before 1/43 to make a big play for AV. A lot of smaller bases fairly well built up is better. It's also a good place to fight Japan if he wants to fight there, although not so strategically important. Doing this could also put pressure on Port Moresby and/or Rabaul, which are both worth a lot to Japan. This is true. I suppose you have the luxury of still possessing some x2 multiplier bases. I don't have any left in one of my games, and very few in the other [:)]. I do have India, however... quote: ORIGINAL: obvert quote: Lastly, if you think he has even a small chance to take Chungking... I wouldn't build that airfield. That's a VP gift to him. It would take an all-out effort to get to Chungking before 1/43. That is now less than 8 months. He's still in the same place as two months ago when the last offensive stopped. Even with all free divisions in China, all of the air force, with SL it would take a good while to break through and then take Chungking. I did it in my game against Torsten in 6/43 without stacking limits and with a big air force there, and only got h ease because he split with 800k men to the mountains. If he does make that effort and gets it after 1/43 I'll have a whole year to deal with getting those points back. I'm building the field. [:)] Go for it! I just hope it doesn't come back to bite you and wanted to make sure you'd thought it through. I forgot that you're playing with SLs. That changes what I said, somewhat. Without seeing the map, it's hard to criticize, and if he pulled the free divisions for use elsewhere (only 2 start "free" there - the 38th [Hong Kong] and 21st [Shanghai], IIRC) then that changes the calculus as well. It's hard to tell without seeing the your map in-game, but in general I think people on this forum place too much emphasis on creating a hex-by-hex defensive line and think too rigidly in terms of axes of advance (you say his offensive stopped, and I'm sitting here asking myself why he's not still on the offensive - even with his "disaster" at Sian). I understand that this mentality is to avoid being surprised by a massive enemy force showing up on your flank, but IMO it takes way too much time to set up and unacceptably dilutes one's forces. Small flanking units here and there find their way into my ground operations, but waiting until 6 units are in position to make one move is just way too slow for me. The IJA needs to move fast in China to get the dominos to start falling, and the Chinese need to move fast when it's time to get out. Setting up these hex-by-hex lines (while it may look pretty on the map) is just asking for trouble against aggressive action. If GJ is doing this and then advancing in a line...well, sir, he's giving you a gift. Maybe SLs changes this a bit, but I won't know until I play a game with them.

obvert -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/18/2014 10:06:48 PM)
With SLs it's a totally different ballgame. It's much more about maneuver and using reserves, maximizing firepower in a hex and wearing down an area slowly. You can still get a bigger, more experienced or more capable army to break through. Setting lines with forts built in good territory though will be hard to break quickly. If he attacks he may even get a 2:1, but may take decent losses, be out of supply, not be able to follow that up immediately. With 3 forts built for units in an SL hex, then you can move in reserves, make up for losses, get a fresh unit in play and the next attack may be at square one again, even getting a worse result. What it will take is an air force, and he seems much more interested in using these in OZ and India. This may change soon as OZ went more quickly than I'm sure he'd planned. So maybe it'll all shift back to China and India now. Still, an offensive now will take a while. Psingiang still holds which I thought would fall months ago. A small flanking move got stalled in the woods there, and I've had time to get 3k AV ready for a flanking push to the South if that comes. Some dug in and some repairing and gaining experience in the bases nearby. Many units have added a third to their AV in repaired squads, are up to 45-50 exp, and have had better leaders installed. A second line past Sian has dug in fully, with each hex on the road about 3/4 maxed to give enough for reinforcements or a fall back if needed. It'll be long and bloody to get to Lanchow. The Burma division still sits in Lashio and will soon move back into China proper, in front of Paoshan. The mountains have been lightly defended but I've just moved a few bigger Corps up there. Here is a map from a while ago, but as I say, nothing has really changed. Notice I have the lines you're mentioning on the map here. If played well, this static line system with good mobile reserves can work in an SL game. If you own the hex you can then be sure to have time to add troops if he starts moving there, as it's almost impossible to get enough in a 25-40k hex to knock out the the 20-30k dug-in defenders quickly enough. In the first few weeks it works, but with 3-4 forts it's tougher. In front of Changsha for instance the force has grown from 1100 AV to 1500 AV (just repairing squads) and the units have between 3-5 forts in +3 terrain! [image]local://upfiles/37283/7D9B31302B3A4847AE80770E5E162747.jpg[/image]

Lokasenna -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/18/2014 10:35:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obvert With SLs it's a totally different ballgame. It's much more about maneuver and using reserves, maximizing firepower in a hex and wearing down an area slowly. You can still get a bigger, more experienced or more capable army to break through. Setting lines with forts built in good territory though will be hard to break quickly. If he attacks he may even get a 2:1, but may take decent losses, be out of supply, not be able to follow that up immediately. With 3 forts built for units in an SL hex, then you can move in reserves, make up for losses, get a fresh unit in play and the next attack may be at square one again, even getting a worse result. What it will take is an air force, and he seems much more interested in using these in OZ and India. This may change soon as OZ went more quickly than I'm sure he'd planned. So maybe it'll all shift back to China and India now. Still, an offensive now will take a while. Psingiang still holds which I thought would fall months ago. A small flanking move got stalled in the woods there, and I've had time to get 3k AV ready for a flanking push to the South if that comes. Some dug in and some repairing and gaining experience in the bases nearby. Many units have added a third to their AV in repaired squads, are up to 45-50 exp, and have had better leaders installed. A second line past Sian has dug in fully, with each hex on the road about 3/4 maxed to give enough for reinforcements or a fall back if needed. It'll be long and bloody to get to Lanchow. The Burma division still sits in Lashio and will soon move back into China proper, in front of Paoshan. The mountains have been lightly defended but I've just moved a few bigger Corps up there. Here is a map from a while ago, but as I say, nothing has really changed. Notice I have the lines you're mentioning on the map here. If played well, this static line system with good mobile reserves can work in an SL game. If you own the hex you can then be sure to have time to add troops if he starts moving there, as it's almost impossible to get enough in a 25-40k hex to knock out the the 20-30k dug-in defenders quickly enough. In the first few weeks it works, but with 3-4 forts it's tougher. In front of Changsha for instance the force has grown from 1100 AV to 1500 AV (just repairing squads) and the units have between 3-5 forts in +3 terrain! I've highlighted those two passages because I want to bring something up. I've noticed, in the UI (which I have no reason to believe is lying to me...) that on the LCU List screen, it will say "Fortifications: 3 (building)" for those "organic" forts in the field. However, if you click on the individual LCUs, you will notice that if you have left any in a mode other than Combat or any more recently arrived units - those units build their own forts. The forts listed on the LCU list page seem to be the highest forts value among units on the list. Likewise, I've never actually seen "forts (+)" show up in the combat report for a combat in a non-base hex. I have no reason to believe that these organic forts aren't making a difference, and given that I've seen the organic forts sometimes stop at 2, sometimes at 3, maybe they're tied to the defensive bonus of the terrain? I don't know. I just wanted to point out that I don't think fresh units moved into a non-base hex benefit from organic forts built by other units, and point to the UI clues that lead me to believe such a thing. If I had his position, this is how I would approach your lines of defense (which I'm sure he can see from at least 1 hex away, because Japanese recon in China is magic): 1) Approach Ankang from the SE. I posted in Jocke's AAR earlier about this area. 2) Cut the southern rail line at Liuchow and/or Kweilin, or by moving a unit up and across the river between Kweilin and Hengyang. 3) Close the hex sides to Pingsiang and then ignore it for later, while pushing to sever what you have at Kukong by taking that clear hex outside Hengyang. 4) If he's really aggressive, he could move tanks up to cut your supply lines from Chungking. He could supply them via air drop, or at least well enough to make it worth the gamble. This is one instance where I endorse those kinds of lines - around large areas of Good Grey Road - you need to know where those tanks are. I suspect he probably has them in India, but... All it takes is an Armored Car Company or two on the roads and you'll never catch them with your slow infantry, all while he cuts your supply lines and keeps his in ample supply (for such a small unit requires little in the way of supplies) via air drop. I'm not saying that's what he'll do, or even if he'll identify the weak points the same as me... just pointing out where you're vulnerable, judging by that map. Particularly Kukong - if he begins making progress in the south, those guys could be cut off very quickly. Stacking limits definitely appears to make China interesting, and is reinforcing my opinion that the IJA needs to move quickly here. It can be done without an air force, by the way, but why not use the restricted units already there? What do the stacking numbers look like for those hexes, anyway?

obvert -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/18/2014 11:17:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lokasenna I've highlighted those two passages because I want to bring something up. I've noticed, in the UI (which I have no reason to believe is lying to me...) that on the LCU List screen, it will say "Fortifications: 3 (building)" for those "organic" forts in the field. However, if you click on the individual LCUs, you will notice that if you have left any in a mode other than Combat or any more recently arrived units - those units build their own forts. The forts listed on the LCU list page seem to be the highest forts value among units on the list. Likewise, I've never actually seen "forts (+)" show up in the combat report for a combat in a non-base hex. I have no reason to believe that these organic forts aren't making a difference, and given that I've seen the organic forts sometimes stop at 2, sometimes at 3, maybe they're tied to the defensive bonus of the terrain? I don't know. I just wanted to point out that I don't think fresh units moved into a non-base hex benefit from organic forts built by other units, and point to the UI clues that lead me to believe such a thing. Units moving into the hex don't use the forts of other units, but it's usually just one being added at a time, and because the others do use the forts bonus, the extra fresh AV stops the push. Individual unit forts do work well, and will mean that th units won't retreat until he's got a +1 attack over the forts level (a 4:1 to dislodge units with forts 3). So at risk of having units wiped out, the hex will hold for a long time if forts are high. quote: If I had his position, this is how I would approach your lines of defense (which I'm sure he can see from at least 1 hex away, because Japanese recon in China is magic): 1) Approach Ankang from the SE. I posted in Jocke's AAR earlier about this area. There is 800AV dug in on the yellow road to Ankang with at least 2-3 forts each unit, and it's a maxed SL hex of I think 40k. Not big enough to move much into and you have to shock over a river. There is a small reserve behind in Ankang. I'm pretty happy about that area for now. quote: 2) Cut the southern rail line at Liuchow and/or Kweilin, or by moving a unit up and across the river between Kweilin and Hengyang. This is the area I've just reinforced. He made one stab at the road to Liuchow /Kweilling, but the Chinese reinforced and held it. Now they are DUG IN with 1200AV in a maxed SL hex with 3 forts each unit, plus 1400AV reserves in Kweillin/Liuchow. Good territory all over here and the inside lines will win the maneuver battle if I'm vigilant on the recon. It takes forever to move off road to the rail, and he'd have to shock onto the other side over the river. Not great. My little Lysander unit is working overtime to make sure nothing sneaky is happening near there, though!! [&o] quote: 3) Close the hex sides to Pingsiang and then ignore it for later, while pushing to sever what you have at Kukong by taking that clear hex outside Hengyang. He tried that, hence the failed flanking moves to the SE. I still own all of those contested hexes and they're maxed SL and dug in. More reserves sit in Henyang and on the road from it to those hexes, ready to move in should an attack wreck a unit or two. quote: 4) If he's really aggressive, he could move tanks up to cut your supply lines from Chungking. He could supply them via air drop, or at least well enough to make it worth the gamble. This is one instance where I endorse those kinds of lines - around large areas of Good Grey Road - you need to know where those tanks are. I suspect he probably has them in India, but... All it takes is an Armored Car Company or two on the roads and you'll never catch them with your slow infantry, all while he cuts your supply lines and keeps his in ample supply (for such a small unit requires little in the way of supplies) via air drop. I guess he'd have to get to the supply line from Chungking to do that, and no base is unguarded, so no para-drops here. If he does bust through, then the reserves will move to start a block while all front lines fall back. It'll probably happen eventually, and that is the weakness of these lines, but he has to brea a spot first, and if he concentrates enough to do that, I should have enough time to get troops in the way. quote: I'm not saying that's what he'll do, or even if he'll identify the weak points the same as me... just pointing out where you're vulnerable, judging by that map. Particularly Kukong - if he begins making progress in the south, those guys could be cut off very quickly. Stacking limits definitely appears to make China interesting, and is reinforcing my opinion that the IJA needs to move quickly here. It can be done without an air force, by the way, but why not use the restricted units already there? What do the stacking numbers look like for those hexes, anyway? Kukong is basically evacuated now. Just one unit there. The road to Henyang has potential, but I'm now moving more units to the furthest hex next to Kukong to dig in. I'll add a few number to the map. Gimme a few minutes.

obvert -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/18/2014 11:51:06 PM)
Ok. Here is a more recent map with some SL marked. As you can see the SL favor the defenders in a number of spots. It's tough to forge ahead when you keep throwing 40-60k men into hexes that get stuck. Takes a few weeks to extricate or you just sit there and let them wait for a breakthrough later. The Japanese in this game are letting them sit for now. Three big Corps at 15k each will do for most hexes over 50k. Now those units are at 250-350 AV, so that's 750-1050AV. At least until the first battles. Then the most damaged big Corps will come out and two smaller Corps with 6-8k stacking and 200-250 AV move in, and you see the problem. The Chinese gain AV even after a battle if there are reserves handy and movement is quick enough. I most of these spots neither side has a movement advantage, and both can move troops in 2-3 days into the contested hex (other than the one wooded hex without roads obviously). [image]local://upfiles/37283/35AAB31316594F13A0156A71DFC9B9AE.jpg[/image]

Lokasenna -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/19/2014 12:01:42 AM)
He doesn't necessarily need to shock across the river. If I were doing it and wanted to avoid the shock, I'd place a small armored car unit on the road hex opposite you. Then I'd move into the woods to the NE and walk in from the east. Suicide shock with the armored cars to open the hex side and therefore the supply flow. I think once (if...) you see tanks hit your battle lines in China, things will start to crumble. Chinese can't do squat against tanks.

Lokasenna -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/19/2014 12:05:16 AM)
Looking at that map, I would take care of the hex 2 spots due south of Henyang. If he takes control of that hex, he can move immediately to the open hex - screwing up whatever you have going on at Kukong (forcing you to come back up the road, or else go west) and hurting the supply flow to your troops in the 65k hex just SW of Changsha. If I were him, and really patient... I would march up the yellow road from Canton and then into the woods, and try to take the open hex from the west. Just before I tried to break the 30k hex that I just mentioned. If he proceeds due NE from Wuchow, it would be difficult for you to see. And if you do see it, he may not care. You seeing it may accomplish the same thing as him arriving unannounced.

obvert -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/19/2014 12:10:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lokasenna He doesn't necessarily need to shock across the river. If I were doing it and wanted to avoid the shock, I'd place a small armored car unit on the road hex opposite you. Then I'd move into the woods to the NE and walk in from the east. Suicide shock with the armored cars to open the hex side and therefore the supply flow. I think once (if...) you see tanks hit your battle lines in China, things will start to crumble. Chinese can't do squat against tanks. In this Babes mod ALL Chinese Corps have built in AT guns! Some up to 36 x 37mm! It's not the same as stock at all, and already I've sen the benefits. The Corps simply don't crumble as they have in my Japanese games using stock. If he moved around, I'd simply fill in all of the hexes he could go to and he'd be taking two months to get into a locked hex with little supply. I'd just have to move back across the river to close the flow if he only left the on suicide unit. If more then I'd keep trying to move in behind his advance in the woods. It would take time, and those wooded hexes are smaller, at 30-35k, so I could bring more on the road hexes and he'd get nowhere. quote: ORIGINAL: Lokasenna Looking at that map, I would take care of the hex 2 spots due south of Henyang. If he takes control of that hex, he can move immediately to the open hex - screwing up whatever you have going on at Kukong (forcing you to come back up the road, or else go west) and hurting the supply flow to your troops in the 65k hex just SW of Changsha. If I were him, and really patient... I would march up the yellow road from Canton and then into the woods, and try to take the open hex from the west. Just before I tried to break the 30k hex that I just mentioned. If he proceeds due NE from Wuchow, it would be difficult for you to see. And if you do see it, he may not care. You seeing it may accomplish the same thing as him arriving unannounced. All good ideas, but they take a long time and you move into small SL hexes again with little supply. I'd only need a few units blocking to force an advance through the woods to a halt if I could get to the good terrain in front before him. Kukong will be evacuated completely at any move toward it. It won't suck supply and I can't support defense there. He doesn't know that though and might think I'll move IN instead. It is good terrain. The hex just up the road is the one I plan to invest more in, still in +3 and tough to break with reserves again right behind it. The one woods hex I've left free as any move there would take some time.

crsutton -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/19/2014 12:26:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obvert 10-12 April, 1942 SUBS: A token IJN sub is hanging out near Dante, the I-123, but it's so far not enough to do much as all convoys are escorted. A LOT of ships are passing this way though. Air ASW is operating from all of the bases out here. INDIA: Japanese forces chase the units from Ledo along the edge of the mountains, and while they won't likely cut them off, will crush them in another battle soon. Pacific: Logistics are hitting high levels now as supply, fuel and troops move across the Pacific and from Cape Town to South OZ. Sydney is just barely being supplied enough fuel to produce, but man, I certainly don't need more supply there. I need it in NW OZ in the desert. CHINA: Nothing but daily bombardments at Pingsiang. OZ: Fleeing units from Darwin all make it to safety except the Gull battalion, which I've just bought back. I managed to save the Lark as well as three other units trapped on New Guinea by walking out of the jungle and getting picked up by Cats. So amazing as I'm reading about the coast watchers in the war doing the same thing after the Japanese had over-run their positions. So great how this game even gets to that kind of detail. SIGINT: I wonder why these are going there? 11/2nd Division is loaded on xAK Shirogane Maru moving to Balikpapan. 3/5th RF Gun Battalion is loaded on a Husimi Cargo class xAK moving to Balikpapan. I have turned off HI in OZ. Supply is fairly easy to ship to OZ but I see no sense in shipping fuel there just to have it disappear as it is gobbled up by Australian industry. Plenty of supply in OZ. Getting it past Tennant Creak ins a pain in the ass. I found that I just could no sustain major troops in that area without taking a port. It is also hard for the Japanese to push supply up from Darwin to Tennant. I think that road only allows 500 supply per day to move down or up it.

obvert -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/19/2014 12:31:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crsutton quote: ORIGINAL: obvert 10-12 April, 1942 SUBS: A token IJN sub is hanging out near Dante, the I-123, but it's so far not enough to do much as all convoys are escorted. A LOT of ships are passing this way though. Air ASW is operating from all of the bases out here. INDIA: Japanese forces chase the units from Ledo along the edge of the mountains, and while they won't likely cut them off, will crush them in another battle soon. Pacific: Logistics are hitting high levels now as supply, fuel and troops move across the Pacific and from Cape Town to South OZ. Sydney is just barely being supplied enough fuel to produce, but man, I certainly don't need more supply there. I need it in NW OZ in the desert. CHINA: Nothing but daily bombardments at Pingsiang. OZ: Fleeing units from Darwin all make it to safety except the Gull battalion, which I've just bought back. I managed to save the Lark as well as three other units trapped on New Guinea by walking out of the jungle and getting picked up by Cats. So amazing as I'm reading about the coast watchers in the war doing the same thing after the Japanese had over-run their positions. So great how this game even gets to that kind of detail. SIGINT: I wonder why these are going there? 11/2nd Division is loaded on xAK Shirogane Maru moving to Balikpapan. 3/5th RF Gun Battalion is loaded on a Husimi Cargo class xAK moving to Balikpapan. I have turned off HI in OZ. Supply is fairly easy to ship to OZ but I see no sense in shipping fuel there just to have it disappear as it is gobbled up by Australian industry. Plenty of supply in OZ. Getting it past Tennant Creak ins a pain in the ass. I found that I just could no sustain major troops in that area without taking a port. It is also hard for the Japanese to push supply up from Darwin to Tennant. I think that road only allows 500 supply per day to move down or up it. Yeah, I might just do that soon, but I'm so far keeping up okay. Not sure what I'll do with ALL of that supply though! After playing Japan I feel a bit silly looking at Bombay and Sydney with 500k+ each. [:D] Tennant is failing to draw now and I'm trying to make this the holding point. Can't fight without supply though, so we'll see. Looks like his armor has turned around anyway. Alice Spings is building fast now and hopefully if I can get a lot there, then it will move on as well.

Lokasenna -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/19/2014 12:41:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obvert quote: ORIGINAL: Lokasenna He doesn't necessarily need to shock across the river. If I were doing it and wanted to avoid the shock, I'd place a small armored car unit on the road hex opposite you. Then I'd move into the woods to the NE and walk in from the east. Suicide shock with the armored cars to open the hex side and therefore the supply flow. I think once (if...) you see tanks hit your battle lines in China, things will start to crumble. Chinese can't do squat against tanks. In this Babes mod ALL Chinese Corps have built in AT guns! Some up to 36 x 37mm! It's not the same as stock at all, and already I've sen the benefits. The Corps simply don't crumble as they have in my Japanese games using stock. If he moved around, I'd simply fill in all of the hexes he could go to and he'd be taking two months to get into a locked hex with little supply. I'd just have to move back across the river to close the flow if he only left the on suicide unit. If more then I'd keep trying to move in behind his advance in the woods. It would take time, and those wooded hexes are smaller, at 30-35k, so I could bring more on the road hexes and he'd get nowhere. quote: ORIGINAL: Lokasenna Looking at that map, I would take care of the hex 2 spots due south of Henyang. If he takes control of that hex, he can move immediately to the open hex - screwing up whatever you have going on at Kukong (forcing you to come back up the road, or else go west) and hurting the supply flow to your troops in the 65k hex just SW of Changsha. If I were him, and really patient... I would march up the yellow road from Canton and then into the woods, and try to take the open hex from the west. Just before I tried to break the 30k hex that I just mentioned. If he proceeds due NE from Wuchow, it would be difficult for you to see. And if you do see it, he may not care. You seeing it may accomplish the same thing as him arriving unannounced. All good ideas, but they take a long time and you move into small SL hexes again with little supply. I'd only need a few units blocking to force an advance through the woods to a halt if I could get to the good terrain in front before him. Kukong will be evacuated completely at any move toward it. It won't suck supply and I can't support defense there. He doesn't know that though and might think I'll move IN instead. It is good terrain. The hex just up the road is the one I plan to invest more in, still in +3 and tough to break with reserves again right behind it. The one woods hex I've left free as any move there would take some time. Ah, but you have to see them coming... That's a bit hard to do as the Chinese. They don't seem to get the magic recon. If he stayed 2 hexes away from your lines, as they are in that map, I doubt you'd see him coming.

obvert -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/19/2014 12:48:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lokasenna Ah, but you have to see them coming... That's a bit hard to do as the Chinese. They don't seem to get the magic recon. If he stayed 2 hexes away from your lines, as they are in that map, I doubt you'd see him coming. RAF Lysanders! Five hex range. Just far enough, and has a camera on board. Single engine, very fuel efficient. I've got two groups in China, one on the front and one in reserve. Notice I can' see a unit in Hankow. [:)] The other thing i can do in a pinch is bring in Hudsons and bomb those hexes just to make sure nothing is there. Their transfer range should still allow me to fly them in and out.

Lokasenna -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/19/2014 1:00:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obvert quote: ORIGINAL: Lokasenna Ah, but you have to see them coming... That's a bit hard to do as the Chinese. They don't seem to get the magic recon. If he stayed 2 hexes away from your lines, as they are in that map, I doubt you'd see him coming. RAF Lysanders! Five hex range. Just far enough, and has a camera on board. Single engine, very fuel efficient. I've got two groups in China, one on the front and one in reserve. Notice I can' see a unit in Hankow. [:)] The other thing i can do in a pinch is bring in Hudsons and bomb those hexes just to make sure nothing is there. Their transfer range should still allow me to fly them in and out. Requires a somewhat dedicated and somewhat exclusive Recon effort on your part, though...

crsutton -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/19/2014 1:18:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obvert quote: ORIGINAL: crsutton quote: ORIGINAL: obvert 10-12 April, 1942 SUBS: A token IJN sub is hanging out near Dante, the I-123, but it's so far not enough to do much as all convoys are escorted. A LOT of ships are passing this way though. Air ASW is operating from all of the bases out here. INDIA: Japanese forces chase the units from Ledo along the edge of the mountains, and while they won't likely cut them off, will crush them in another battle soon. Pacific: Logistics are hitting high levels now as supply, fuel and troops move across the Pacific and from Cape Town to South OZ. Sydney is just barely being supplied enough fuel to produce, but man, I certainly don't need more supply there. I need it in NW OZ in the desert. CHINA: Nothing but daily bombardments at Pingsiang. OZ: Fleeing units from Darwin all make it to safety except the Gull battalion, which I've just bought back. I managed to save the Lark as well as three other units trapped on New Guinea by walking out of the jungle and getting picked up by Cats. So amazing as I'm reading about the coast watchers in the war doing the same thing after the Japanese had over-run their positions. So great how this game even gets to that kind of detail. SIGINT: I wonder why these are going there? 11/2nd Division is loaded on xAK Shirogane Maru moving to Balikpapan. 3/5th RF Gun Battalion is loaded on a Husimi Cargo class xAK moving to Balikpapan. I have turned off HI in OZ. Supply is fairly easy to ship to OZ but I see no sense in shipping fuel there just to have it disappear as it is gobbled up by Australian industry. Plenty of supply in OZ. Getting it past Tennant Creak ins a pain in the ass. I found that I just could no sustain major troops in that area without taking a port. It is also hard for the Japanese to push supply up from Darwin to Tennant. I think that road only allows 500 supply per day to move down or up it. Yeah, I might just do that soon, but I'm so far keeping up okay. Not sure what I'll do with ALL of that supply though! After playing Japan I feel a bit silly looking at Bombay and Sydney with 500k+ each. [:D] Tennant is failing to draw now and I'm trying to make this the holding point. Can't fight without supply though, so we'll see. Looks like his armor has turned around anyway. Alice Spings is building fast now and hopefully if I can get a lot there, then it will move on as well. Make sure you have draw turned off everywhere else.

Lokasenna -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/19/2014 1:28:39 AM)
In my experience, Tennant has a poor draw rate. I believe that, in stock at least, it has a cap (300 comes to mind...).

ny59giants -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/19/2014 2:01:15 AM)
The daily draw rate for Tennant Creek will go up once you can build up the AF and later the forts. In less than a year, you will have plenty of construction engineers to do so.

obvert -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/19/2014 9:27:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ny59giants The daily draw rate for Tennant Creek will go up once you can build up the AF and later the forts. In less than a year, you will have plenty of construction engineers to do so. I have a few base forces from Darwin there now and they could build pretty fast but it's at 20 supply! I've got Alice Springs trying to tug supply in and then let it fee, but none seems to move on. Maybe it's just slow.

obvert -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/19/2014 10:12:57 AM)
A few calculations of VP multipliers. This at shows me that it's possible to add a lot without risking too much. I don't have to put the CVs and fleet in jeopardy to avoid AV, I just have to take care of business, get engineers in place, build and move forward in India where I can both pick up more points and reduce Japanese base points while adding to their airframe and troop losses. Also, at even 5 planes a day, which is what the Japanese have been losing by continuous bombing and other activity, in the next 8 months that would be 1200 points! Without even fighting, which of course there will be some of soon. [;)] Looking at this makes me think that Ceylon is not an absolute necessity, even if it also would come with some Japanese troop destruction points. It depends on where the KB is being kept and if we can see it before a possible invasion. Colombo's shipyard is of course very helpful. Diego Garcia though is a great option for getting some points back without too much risk. Noumea: Allies (50) port: 2 (4) = 100 airfield: 2 (5) = 200 �� 300 port 7(4) = 350 airfield 8(5) = 800 �� 1150 +850 Socotra: Allies (10) port 2(0) = 20 airfield 2(5) = 40 �� 60 port 2(0) = 20 airfield 8(5) = 160 �� 180 +120 Canberra: 180 (540) +360 Krasnoyarsk: 160 (360) +200 Masirah: 30 (150) + 120 Dante: 30 (150) + 120 Auckland: 200 now (270) +70 Anchorage: 160 (220) +60 �� +1900 Current Japanese bases (IO) +50 - Diego Garcia: 50 (160) +110 +23 - Colombo: 23 (54) +31 +24 - Trincomolee: 24 (54) +28 +3 - Koggola: 3 (20) +17 +2 Dambull.: 2 (18) +16 +5 Jaffna: 5 (23) + 18 �� +104 >>>>>>>> +319

crsutton -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/19/2014 3:41:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obvert quote: ORIGINAL: ny59giants The daily draw rate for Tennant Creek will go up once you can build up the AF and later the forts. In less than a year, you will have plenty of construction engineers to do so. I have a few base forces from Darwin there now and they could build pretty fast but it's at 20 supply! I've got Alice Springs trying to tug supply in and then let it fee, but none seems to move on. Maybe it's just slow. Turn off the tug at Alice Springs. It is competing with the Tug at Tennant and might be screwing you up. Just pull at the one base that you really need the supply at. Once you get the supply there, turn on stockpile so that it will not flow out and then you can pull elsewhere. Make sure all other pulls are off too- Townsville, Perth and so on. Multiple pulls seem to confuse the AI.

Lokasenna -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/19/2014 3:42:08 PM)
+1 to Diego Garcia. I'd probably use American APs and AKs to do it, via Cape Town. Possibly even American CVs. Diego's location makes it a much safer target than anything else you could target, and it has the x10 multiplier for you.

obvert -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/21/2014 10:02:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lokasenna +1 to Diego Garcia. I'd probably use American APs and AKs to do it, via Cape Town. Possibly even American CVs. Diego's location makes it a much safer target than anything else you could target, and it has the x10 multiplier for you. I have a bunch of AMC in Cape Town I'll probably use and I'm sending some AK there to get supply unloaded quickly. Interesting findings about Diego in recent turns. [:)]

obvert -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/21/2014 10:54:13 PM)
April 13-15, 1942 SUBS: The I-153 is lurking near Map edges close to Aden, but hasn't hit anything yet. INDIA: Some interlopers appear near Masirah. Looks like a Cruiser led raiding TF, showing four ships in the rollover. I've got a few TFs moving, one bigger one heading to Cape Twon and a few coming off the map edge. Another two small ones coming from Aden in two and three days. I'll send out the RN, a CL/DD TF to Masirah and the BBs will stay to cover Karachi where a big tanker TF is unloading. The 5 plane Banshee unit here with some Stringbags will head to Socotra. It'd be nice to hit something out here. CHINA: Did a few recon sweeps over the past few days, and it seems nothing is moving in range that I can see. If I were going to come into China now it would be through Haiphong to Nanning, but I do have that well covered and I'l get a lot of warning fro munits in the area if that happens. Still getting SIGINT for units planning for Chikhiang, Lanchow, Tuyun, and other deep bases, so I don't think the Japanese have abandoned an offensive mindset here. They are simply waiting. OZ: More para-drops. Those guys need a holiday. Esperance and Albany are the targets this time. There are still a few remnant units trying to stagger away from SW OZ that most likely won't make it. SIGINT: Finally ready to deal with the PI? 3/41st Division is loaded on xAP Mizuho Maru moving to San Fernando. [image]local://upfiles/37283/5A0796A17B6B4A2EAE7FFA4EDFF00865.jpg[/image] Just got there xAKL 'Banana Boats' which are heading to PH now. A good match for APDs I think as they were Clemson class DDs converted to fruit carrying in the 30s. At least seven were converted altogether, but only these three I think made it to the Pacific. i like them, although they sure look weird without the four stacks and cut down to the bare bones. This is the Teapa.

crsutton -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/21/2014 11:33:55 PM)
Yes, those banana boat AKLs were a pleasant surprise. Actually quite useful. Can they go into a fast transport TF?

obvert -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/22/2014 12:47:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crsutton Yes, those banana boat AKLs were a pleasant surprise. Actually quite useful. Can they go into a fast transport TF? Not sure, but it could just be an amphib TF. Maybe even just as an accompanying supply boat.

BBfanboy -> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J) (6/23/2014 1:48:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obvert quote: ORIGINAL: crsutton Yes, those banana boat AKLs were a pleasant surprise. Actually quite useful. Can they go into a fast transport TF? Not sure, but it could just be an amphib TF. Maybe even just as an accompanying supply boat. I thought the only criterion for Fast Transport was a speed of at least 16 knots? If it can do transport and can do the 16 kts. it should be able to do FT.

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