Noob question: Combat engineers (Full Version)

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margeorg -> Noob question: Combat engineers (4/4/2014 7:03:26 AM)

Hello,


here´s another noob question: I´m currently playing a stock PBEM game as the allies, and my question is: Do US (or potentially others) combat engineers have a dual role? I.e. are they fighting troops AND engineers, that means being able to expand bases and construct fortifications etc.?

Thanks for your shared knwledge :)



KenchiSulla -> RE: Noob question: Combat engineers (4/4/2014 7:50:09 AM)

Combat engineers can build up bases and are great in combat. They provide firepower, AV + they can drop forts before the final AV calculation.



[image]local://upfiles/30342/0F3FF0C9FA3F45259A54259B067D25C7.jpg[/image]



Yaab -> RE: Noob question: Combat engineers (4/4/2014 8:51:16 AM)

Combat engineers can:
-fight
-reduce enemy fortifications
-build ports, forts, airfields and repair them

Non-combat engineers can do the same, but they have lower anti-soft/anti-hard stats which means they are very weak in combat.



Gaspote -> RE: Noob question: Combat engineers (4/4/2014 10:10:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Combat engineers can:
-fight
-reduce enemy fortifications
-build ports, forts, airfields and repair them

Non-combat engineers can do the same, but they have lower anti-soft/anti-hard stats which means they are very weak in combat.


Are you sure normal engineer reduce fortifications the same ? I always thought only combat engineer could reduce fort.



castor troy -> RE: Noob question: Combat engineers (4/4/2014 10:29:12 AM)

only combat eng reduce forts, they can do everything. Normal eng only build/repair but don't reduce forts. Like every squad they also contribute in defensive battles.



Yaab -> RE: Noob question: Combat engineers (4/4/2014 10:34:15 AM)

Stock game, December 1941, Chinese attack Ichang:

Ground combat at Ichang (83,48)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 84156 troops, 502 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 2295

Defending force 22611 troops, 223 guns, 168 vehicles, Assault Value = 817

Allied adjusted assault: 2087

Japanese adjusted defense: 876

Allied assault odds: 2 to 1 (fort level 3)

Allied Assault reduces fortifications to 2

-------------------

The Chinese corps have standard Engineer squads in their TOE, so it seems that if such Engineers are part of infantry units they reduce forts just as combat engineers do.

The manual says otherwise (see page 195), but the game behaves differently...



Itdepends -> RE: Noob question: Combat engineers (4/4/2014 11:02:24 AM)

A successful attack reduces forts by a single level- if you'd had combat engineers there you would have had a chance to drop the forts 2 levels.



CowboyRonin -> RE: Noob question: Combat engineers (4/4/2014 11:04:09 AM)

I don't think it's quite the same, Yaab. The combat engineer reduction occurs before the assault goes in; the assault reduction occurs after. The combat engineer reduction just counts engineers; the assault reduction has to get positive odds to work. I don't think you even need engineers to get the assault reduction (although it's hard to not have a few here or there)-it's just looking at a positive odds assault that didn't get through the forts.



Yaab -> RE: Noob question: Combat engineers (4/4/2014 11:04:56 AM)

You are right. Thanks for correcting me.



dr.hal -> RE: Noob question: Combat engineers (4/4/2014 11:11:26 AM)

As for the US Marines, they say that everyone is an infantry man first and then an engineer, cook, clerk, etc....



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Noob question: Combat engineers (4/4/2014 11:44:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

As for the US Marines, they say that everyone is an infantry man first and then an engineer, cook, clerk, etc....


Rifleman first. Don't ever call a Marine an "infantryman." [:)]



dr.hal -> RE: Noob question: Combat engineers (4/4/2014 12:36:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

As for the US Marines, they say that everyone is an infantry man first and then an engineer, cook, clerk, etc....


Rifleman first. Don't ever call a Marine an "infantryman." [:)]

Sorry Moose how true!



margeorg -> RE: Noob question: Combat engineers (4/4/2014 1:26:51 PM)

Thanks guys for all the responses!



Lecivius -> RE: Noob question: Combat engineers (4/4/2014 1:57:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

As for the US Marines, they say that everyone is an infantry man first and then an engineer, cook, clerk, etc....


Rifleman first. Don't ever call a Marine an "infantryman." [:)]



I have been known to say such things, and more. It always seems to cause an enlightened, spirited conversation [sm=00000016.gif]


[:D]



crsutton -> RE: Noob question: Combat engineers (4/4/2014 5:29:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

As for the US Marines, they say that everyone is an infantry man first and then an engineer, cook, clerk, etc....


Rifleman first. Don't ever call a Marine an "infantryman." [:)]


You mean when the shoot their "guns?"



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Noob question: Combat engineers (4/4/2014 9:09:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

As for the US Marines, they say that everyone is an infantry man first and then an engineer, cook, clerk, etc....


Rifleman first. Don't ever call a Marine an "infantryman." [:)]


You mean when the shoot their "guns?"


"Take a lap, Sutton. You too, Denver." [:)]



jmalter -> RE: Noob question: Combat engineers (4/5/2014 12:00:08 PM)

hi margeorg,

Combat Engineers will function as regular engineers in the stock game you are playing.

But many mod scenarios have taken advantage of editor functions to create different kinds of engineer devices w/ varied capabilities. I'm pretty sure that the DBB-B scenario I'm playing currently does not allow Combat Engineers to build or repair.



jmalter -> RE: Noob question: Combat engineers (4/5/2014 12:02:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
"Take a lap, Sutton. You too, Denver." [:)]

"This is my rifle, this is my gun.
One is for shootin', the other's for fun."



castor troy -> RE: Noob question: Combat engineers (4/5/2014 4:39:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Stock game, December 1941, Chinese attack Ichang:

Ground combat at Ichang (83,48)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 84156 troops, 502 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 2295

Defending force 22611 troops, 223 guns, 168 vehicles, Assault Value = 817

Allied adjusted assault: 2087

Japanese adjusted defense: 876

Allied assault odds: 2 to 1 (fort level 3)

Allied Assault reduces fortifications to 2

-------------------

The Chinese corps have standard Engineer squads in their TOE, so it seems that if such Engineers are part of infantry units they reduce forts just as combat engineers do.

The manual says otherwise (see page 195), but the game behaves differently...




your 2:1 adjusted assault reduced a fort level, not engineers. If combat engineers reduce forts you will see that message further above.



wdolson -> RE: Noob question: Combat engineers (4/5/2014 10:35:23 PM)

Additionally when combat engineers reduce forts, you see a message saying "engineers reduce fortifications" or something along those lines. If the fort level goes down without that message, it was due to the assault itself and not engineers.

Bill



Symon -> RE: Noob question: Combat engineers (4/6/2014 4:44:22 PM)

Once again … It’s not hard, one just has to pay attention. Find the device number of the engineer squad you are interested in; open the editor; go to that device number; look at it.

If the Device Type is 24 – Engineer, it can always help build.
If the Device Type is 23 – Squad, it cannot ever help build.
If the Device Anti-Armor is >1, it will add to the fort reduction algorithm.
If the Device Anti-Armor is 0 or 1, it will not add to the fort reduction algorithm.
If the Device Anti-Soft is >9, it will add to the assault value algorithm.
If the Device Anti-Soft is 9 or less, it will not add to the assault value algorithm.
If the Device Shore Party switch is set, it will add to the load/unload algorithm.
If the Device Shore Party switch is not set, it will not add to the load/unload algorithm.

The Device “Name” is merely a text string. It is meaningless. The Device data field values are everything.



margeorg -> RE: Noob question: Combat engineers (4/7/2014 12:40:17 PM)

Thanks, Symon, for the explanations. So far I´ve always overlooked the editor, as I´m just playing, and not modding. Seems this tool contains something for the average player too ...



crsutton -> RE: Noob question: Combat engineers (4/7/2014 2:33:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

Once again … It’s not hard, one just has to pay attention. Find the device number of the engineer squad you are interested in; open the editor; go to that device number; look at it.

If the Device Type is 24 – Engineer, it can always help build.
If the Device Type is 23 – Squad, it cannot ever help build.
If the Device Anti-Armor is >1, it will add to the fort reduction algorithm.
If the Device Anti-Armor is 0 or 1, it will not add to the fort reduction algorithm.
If the Device Anti-Soft is >9, it will add to the assault value algorithm.
If the Device Anti-Soft is 9 or less, it will not add to the assault value algorithm.
If the Device Shore Party switch is set, it will add to the load/unload algorithm.
If the Device Shore Party switch is not set, it will not add to the load/unload algorithm.

The Device “Name” is merely a text string. It is meaningless. The Device data field values are everything.



Thanks, it helps to know this but a little common sense does not hurt. One should not need to go to the editor to know that a sherman tank is going to help reduce fortifications and a truck is not. Players need only think about the historical roles of units and have a little knowledge of WWII combat and then need not worry too much about checking the editor. In that respect you guys have designed a damned good game.



Yaab -> RE: Noob question: Combat engineers (4/7/2014 3:09:43 PM)

What if there are two devices, the first one is:

anti-armor 1 / anti-soft 10

the second one is:

anti-armor 10 / anti-soft 1

Do they add to assault calculations?



Symon -> RE: Noob question: Combat engineers (4/7/2014 3:34:16 PM)

The editor does help. The Device listing, above, is to answer the “engineering” question. And no, Shermans are not adders to the fort reduction algorithm. They are part of the nominal assault value reduction process.

Many engineering devices have “names” that are misleading. A squad can be called somethingorother “Eng” yet not be able to add to the fort reduction algorithm, and not add to the assault value. Others may be able to do one or the other, still others might be able to do both. Yet others are simply labor devices and can’t do anything except consume supply. One needs to consult the editor data to determine which is which.

As one can see, some engineer units (devices) may contribute twice to fort reduction; once by being assault value capable (Anti-Soft >9) thereby contributing to the nominal, AV odds based, reduction process, and again by being “Eng” Typed, and having Anti-Armor >1, thereby contributing to the “Eng Adder” portion of the process. Other engineer devices can’t contribute to either.

LCUs very often have a mix of two, or even three, different types of engineer devices. It behooves a player to understand the differences between their capabilities in order to avoid those embarrassing wtfo? moments.

Consulting the editor is not a difficult process, and one quickly becomes familiar with all the various types, making it eventually unnecessary.



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