February Update (Full Version)

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Empires in Arms the Napoleonic Wars of 1805 - 1815



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Marshall Ellis -> February Update (2/8/2003 9:20:30 AM)

Hey everybody:

Sorry for the late update. Been VERY VERY busy lately but now that I've got a few hours of sleep ... here ya go...

Well, the graphics team is developing some great stuff for the finished look. Our EIA Combat is still under testing (A few combat matrix errors) but coming along.

I expect us to be in testing ... hopefully... in a month or so. Remember these are "programmer months" so it is subject to the standard "+ or -" 50%

After this step, we will do the coding for PBEM. Maybe you guys can tell me your best method of EIA PBEM i.e. "How you do it today?" I've seen a few great methods but am soliciting input as to how you think it should be done ???

Anyway, back to the keyboard (Other keyboard, that is LOL).

Thank you




Le Tondu -> How do we like it? (2/8/2003 11:10:24 AM)

Welcome back Marshal. A rolling stone gathers no moss, eh?

Two methods that I am the most familiar with are Combat Mission and John Tiller's Napoleonic games. CM is the closest to what EiA will be. It worked rather nicely, yet TCP/IP play is my favored method of gaming.




oleb -> Re: February Update (2/9/2003 12:41:27 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Marshall Ellis
[B]Well, the graphics team is developing some great stuff for the finished look. Our EIA Combat is still under testing (A few combat matrix errors) but coming along.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I dont believe you, unless you produce some screenshots... :)
[QUOTE][B]
I expect us to be in testing ... hopefully... in a month or so. Remember these are "programmer months" so it is subject to the standard "+ or -" 50%
[/B][/QUOTE]
Will there be a call for betatesters at this point?
[QUOTE][B]
After this step, we will do the coding for PBEM. Maybe you guys can tell me your best method of EIA PBEM i.e. "How you do it today?" I've seen a few great methods but am soliciting input as to how you think it should be done ???
[/B][/QUOTE]
I think limiting the number of times the game need player input is necessary, eg. waiting for every player to conduct every step of the Diplomatic phase can be quite tiresome, some corners should be cut. A bit of flexibility will be lost, but speed will be gained. Many actions should be able to conduct in one step, like making/breaking alliances, declaration of combined move, free state declaration
Another example is the reinforcement phases, maybe cutting it down to one. If possible it could appear simultaneously, in the sense that you dont see what other players do in their reinf phase, untill all have submitted moves.




mogami -> PBEM (2/9/2003 1:55:05 AM)

Hi, Prehaps it might still use a "host" computer where players send their turns. (The host could also play the game since he would not see any of the effects of the input till all players had sent files.)

PBEM phase example

Prussia file added
Austria file added
Russia file added
Turkey file added
France file added
UK file Added
Spain file added

It would not matter what order turn files arrived (they would just be held by program untill their phase occured.




Le Tondu -> Re: PBEM (2/9/2003 11:36:28 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
[B]Hi, Prehaps it might still use a "host" computer where players send their turns. (The host could also play the game since he would not see any of the effects of the input till all players had sent files.)

PBEM phase example

Prussia file added
Austria file added
Russia file added
Turkey file added
France file added
UK file Added
Spain file added

It would not matter what order turn files arrived (they would just be held by program untill their phase occured. [/B][/QUOTE]

Combat Mission is able to detect which player's computer is the faster computer and all of the game's calculations are done on it duriong TCP/IP play. As for PBEM play each computer does it's own, I believe. Maybe a "host" would have to do it all.




mogami -> Host (2/10/2003 1:02:56 AM)

Hi, If you go without a host all players will need to send their files to the next player in line . By making one the host the players can do faster turn arounds. Since they can do it when ever they are ready (don't wait for other players)(and the host has to send new files out to every player after each turn.)

Otherwise the sequence has to be followed
player one makes turn sends to player 2 who makes turn who sends to player 3
With a host the faster players can do their turn and not have to wait on the slower ones (of course they will not get next turn
untill all players have sent in their files but I think this might actually be faster in that once the slow player submits turn it can be resolved rather then only proceeding at that point to the next player)




Mynok -> (2/10/2003 3:20:48 AM)

EIA definitely cries out for a host-based PBEM solution.

I would love to see the resolution code pulled out into a hosting system that would run on a web server. The game would be able to submit turns to the website. When all turns for the phase/turn are received, the web site automatically resolves it and emails each player's results. Better yet, email a notice that the turn is ready, and have the game capable of retrieving the results directly from the web site automatically. The resolution code should be multi-platform, too, so people can run it on their ISP's linux servers (or their own colocated ones).

Matrix will sell a lot of games if they are willing to do this.




ABP -> (2/10/2003 6:20:54 AM)

I hope you will put some "programming" thought into the following:
Please make the organisation and running of PBEM-games as simple as possible. Hopefully players will not need to manually generate the e-mail in whatever program they have on their computer. Some kind of automation would be nice.
It will be very important how games are set up with player information and e-mail addresses. It would be nice to have it in-game, but should also be easy to maintain, if players drop out etc. It could be solved by each player filling out a profile with all necesary information needed to play each kind of version: PBEM, TCP/IP.
The profile could contain information such as User name, IP address, E-mail address, country, time zone, desired game pace (PBEM).
Just thought: Is the some way the game could be made to remind gamers if they are late with a turn, provided that it is agreed upon by all players at the game start how the pace should be?
Will it be necesary to select a "game-master" to run the game, or will it be smart enough to run it self in multiplayer mode?
It may be needed to have some sort of "policing".




Wynter -> (2/10/2003 4:16:00 PM)

[QUOTE] [B]
After this step, we will do the coding for PBEM. Maybe you guys can tell me your best method of EIA PBEM i.e. "How you do it today?" I've seen a few great methods but am soliciting input as to how you think it should be done ???
[/B] [/QUOTE]

I'll try to give a brief overview on how we are handling our EiA PBEM game.

We have a GM (me) who manages the game. I try to minimize the number of messages between myself and the players in order to keep a steady pace in the game.

We begin a gamemonth with each player sending their diplomatic actions for that month (DoW, create/break alliance, sue for peace...). When all players have sent their message, these messages are processed and I send a resultform back around. Normaly one message from a player is sufficient and I do not need to ask extra questions. I take it that, for Minor Country Control, every player will try, if possible, to gain control of a minor unless I'm explicitly told in the diplomatic message that a player will not try to gain control. The only time that I do need to ask extra questions is when handling Call to Allies.

After the diplomacy phase, we conduct the movement phase. In the movement phase we have integrated: reinforcements, naval and land movement. We created forms to be filled out by each player indicating the location and strength of their forces and the planned movement. Every player sends his form to me, and when all forms have arrived, I, again, process them and simultaniously move every players forces (this is a major change to the board game mechanics). When forces meet (expected or unexpected), a battle is fought. When a player anticipates a fight, he can already indicate his strategy on his form. When the battle is unexpected, I will have to contact the involved players informing them of the battle and asking them for strategic choices. I calculate forces, morale, dice roll modifiers and make all the dice rolls for the battle. When all movement has been completed, I send around the resultform and an update for the cyberboard map visual aid.

Each Economy Phase, I again need a message from every player and I respond by sending around the result when all economic forms have been received.

As you can see, when all goes well, it is possible to play one gamemonth every week because we minimized the communication between GM and players. I believe that my 'job' can easily be done by a computer program, as all I do is maintain mappositions, verify movements and cost and calculate combat results. I do not have to 'think', or make strategic decisions, which makes my job quite easy to code :)

Hope this helps you,
Jeroen.




Hoche -> Keep moves in order (2/11/2003 1:01:45 AM)

I have been in pbem game with simultaneous movement and that game was a disaster. I will never play in one again. I think pbem games work best when done in order. Yes it may be slower but players are happier and stick with the game longer. I think a simultaneius politcal phase is ok. If some one declares war then people would have to resubmit poliitcal orders. Things like minor country control could be made more simple. You could check a box to roll for all minors or not. Naval and land reinforcement could be combined into one order.

For battles and almost all sieges the computer could do it in one click of the mouse. Excpet when there are decisions to be made, for example; chit, fall into city or no, reinforce, commit guard, lower leader tactical ratings, etc.

Yea this takes a while but for purists like me the ability to have complete control over my nation is extremely important. I would resent losing a battle due to some auto-decision made by the comp to save time.




Le Tondu -> Re: Keep moves in order (2/11/2003 11:16:45 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hoche
[B]..........Yea this takes a while but for purists like me the ability to have complete control over my nation is extremely important. I would resent losing a battle due to some auto-decision made by the comp to save time. [/B][/QUOTE]

I really LOVE "we-go" (or simultaneous movement games) and I thought that I was the purist. :)




Wynter -> Re: Keep moves in order (2/11/2003 3:36:02 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hoche
[B]...Yes it may be slower but players are happier and stick with the game longer. [/B][/QUOTE]

I really do not believe, given the tools we have at this time, it is possible to play EiA without simultaneous move.
Even if you have a group of dedicated players with a high availability, still you should take 2 days for each move: 14 days for one gamemonth. If you then split naval and land phase, this time is doubled. Include some diplomacy and a diplomatic phase, maybe a reinforcement phase, and you easily come to one month playtime for one month gametime. It would take at least ten years :eek: to finish a game of PBEM EiA... hopeless.
If you reduce the amount of communication for each gamemonth, the turns advance faster, and this keeps players happy.

Jeroen.




Le Tondu -> Re: Re: Keep moves in order (2/11/2003 9:43:32 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wynter
[B].........It would take at least ten years :eek: to finish a game of PBEM EiA... hopeless..........

Jeroen. [/B][/QUOTE]

I don't know why I say this, but I have a feeling that Marshal and the guys have something better than that in mind.

I say, "Don't give up the ship!"

Let's think positively here. :)

Lastly, I hope Marshal will let us know as soon as possible how it will work out.




Wynter -> Re: Re: Re: Keep moves in order (2/11/2003 11:17:02 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Le Tondu
[B]I don't know why I say this, but I have a feeling that Marshal and the guys have something better than that in mind.
[/B][/QUOTE]

An automated platform will make the administration of the game easier, but still, in a PBEM enviroment, you have a lot of slow, non-real time communication between 'server' and 'players'. In a multiplayer enviroment, this is no issue, but it is a bottleneck in PBEM.

So, Marshal, any hints on how to solve this?

Jeroen.




Wynter -> (2/13/2003 1:13:34 AM)

Marshal,

I've been thinking on how you could bring the PBEM EiA to us, the players.

What if you, Matrixgames, host an EiA server where players can log on to, go to one of the games they are playing, consult a message board ('players wanted'), read messages in their inbox, etc, etc.
Such a system would speed up the game and limit the number of mailtraffic between players, at best you get one message from the EiA-server informing you that you have new messages in your inbox.
To pay for the server support, you can include in every EiA box an access code to open an account on your server, so you'll have to buy the game to be able to play on the net ;) .

Jeroen.




ABP -> E-mails (2/13/2003 3:10:52 AM)

It may be wishful thinking, but I envisioned a system where submitted moves, combat etc. was handled inside the game and only "packages" was sent to host or next player. Official diplomacy could even be handled in game. The will of cause always be a lot of behind the scenes diplomacy, but that only adds colour. I think as much as posible "must be done" parts of the game should be done in the game. That will help keeping the sequences of the game in place and help speed up the game.

I find that most time in games are used discussing/fighting over how rules should be interpreted. This game will certainly eliminate that.

I think those who are concerned about game speed maybe should play with the TCP/IP mode of the game.

No matter how people want to play they should try to build a close network of players that play more than one game. That will help reducing the risk of players quitting if the are doing poorly i a game, because they will get a new chance in a later game.

To Marshall: Are you currently play-testing or only testing functionallity? If you are do you have a feel for what the pace of the game will be i human real time compared with game time?




YohanTM2 -> (2/13/2003 5:36:54 AM)

For Space empires IV a thrid party group supported by donations has a central server that works extremely well.

[URL=http://seiv.pbw.cc/graphic/index.jsp]http://seiv.pbw.cc/graphic/index.jsp[/URL]

This would be an awesome way to do it




ZONER -> (2/14/2003 7:14:34 AM)

I agree with Hoche's comments. If you add simutaneous movement you change the game. The slow downs only occur when at war and with enforced peace this is not as often as people think. I believe that if at war it is the responibilty of a country to have a faster turn around time than normal to compansate for the additional delays. I have no problem with a country submitting its entire move while at peace but if you take away the decisions with chit choice and reinforcement option commit the guard and other options that are dynamic in the game turn you take away the strength, flexibility and enjoyment of the game system. Without these options you are no longer playing EIA but a game based only on its maps and counters with none of the substance that makes this game unique. If you are looking to market this game I would emphize working on an AI against 1 player. PBEM should be the secondary feature because it is still faced with the challange of keeping 7 players active through out the game no matter how efficiant the program. Most sucessful PBEM games have been 2 player type games fot good reason. Anyway just food for thought.




denisonh -> Re: Re: Keep moves in order (2/14/2003 10:52:04 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Le Tondu
[B]I really LOVE "we-go" (or simultaneous movement games) and I thought that I was the purist. :) [/B][/QUOTE]

I'm with you Le Tondu!




denisonh -> (2/14/2003 11:01:31 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ZONER
[B]
I agree with Hoche's comments. If you add simutaneous movement you change the game. The slow downs only occur when at war and with enforced peace this is not as often as people think. I believe that if at war it is the responibilty of a country to have a faster turn around time than normal to compansate for the additional delays. I have no problem with a country submitting its entire move while at peace but if you take away the decisions with chit choice and reinforcement option commit the guard and other options that are dynamic in the game turn you take away the strength, flexibility and enjoyment of the game system. Without these options you are no longer playing EIA but a game based only on its maps and counters with none of the substance that makes this game unique. If you are looking to market this game I would emphize working on an AI against 1 player. PBEM should be the secondary feature because it is still faced with the challange of keeping 7 players active through out the game no matter how efficiant the program. Most sucessful PBEM games have been 2 player type games fot good reason. Anyway just food for thought. [/B][/QUOTE]

I may have agreed with you at one time, but that was before I started playing Uncommon Valor. I have played so much more PBEM than AI, and it has been FAR more enjoyable.

I think PBEM should be a PRIMARY consideration, as the game will enjoy much more longevity.

Most people who will purchase this product will never have an AI meet their expectations for an opponent in a computer AI. Can you provide a list of games where the AI is so good that it kept you engrossed for a better part of a YEAR?(for me, a list similar to French military victories since Napoleon) I bought UV in June and have 6 PBEM games going, and all the while debating whether or not to start a new one. I will be playing the game for a long time to come, particularly since the new patch Matrix is putting out will make the game **** near perfect.

Yea, I want PBEM, and I want an improved game than has an option for simultaneous moves (as an option, of course, for all you die hard "if it doesn't look EXACTLY like EiA we won't but it" crowd)

So count me in the "if it doesn't have PBEM I won't buy it crowd".




Le Tondu -> A thought (2/15/2003 8:18:00 AM)

With all this talk about PBEM and simultaneous movement, etc...

I had a thought.

I remembered way back when combat mission was PBEM only and how hard it was to switch to TCP/IP play. I mean when you are used to a certain system it is really a comfortable place to be ---and it is not so comfortable when you try to change things.

The switch from PBEM to TCP/IP play (with CM) for me was uncomfortable until about ten minutes into my first TCP/IP game. It was like night and day. No longer did I have to wait a real long time! I could get an entire game finished in one day. Sometimes even more.

Now, I write all this not knowing for sure if EiA will be TCP/IP possible, but if it is, then you guys are in for a treat.

This will especially be true during multiplayer games. To this I imagine everybody would tune into the host player's TCP address and voila you're off to the races!

All it would take is a couple of hours on a weekend day and you probably get a whole lot more done that doing it PBEM for a week.

This is offered just as something to think about. Change is sometimes hard to do, but maybe it is just what the doctor ordered to get us past this PBEM question.
:)




denisonh -> (2/15/2003 9:22:00 AM)

I like TCP/IP games, but the problem is finishing them.

If you have simultaneous movement whre players are concurrently planning, it executes, and then they plan again, it will work well.

Even still, gettin 5-7 players together consistently for a couple hours a week is tough.

Used to play SSI's Imperialism multiplayer, where you had 4-5 players playing in a TCP/IP format, and it was good. But the problem of getting all the players times to coincide was a pain.

I loved the game and TCP/IP format, but you could not complete games due to getting players together.

If you have a PBEM format, the game will plod along, but it is steady and less dependent on getting folks together. You may even be able to keep a pace that would rival TCP/IP over time.

That's my take.




Wynter -> Re: A thought (2/15/2003 3:12:00 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Le Tondu
[B]All it would take is a couple of hours on a weekend day and you probably get a whole lot more done that doing it PBEM for a week.[/B][/QUOTE]

True, but remember that there are players all around the world, so getting them together at the same time is extremely difficult. Therefore I would vote for sim-movement.

Jeroen.




jnier -> Re: Re: A thought (2/16/2003 6:42:36 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wynter
[B]True, but remember that there are players all around the world, so getting them together at the same time is extremely difficult. Therefore I would vote for sim-movement.

Jeroen. [/B][/QUOTE]
I think PBEM with simultaneous movement would make for a more feasible multiplayer experience than the alternatives. Jeroen is our very able GM in a PBEM game using cyberboard with simultaneous movement, and we are coming close to completing a turn per week (although it's still early). Imagine how quickly things would go if the GM's duties could be automated?

TCP/IP is great for 2 or 3 players, but not for 7.

And without simultanous movement all hopes of ever completing game are out the window...forget about it. I hope the Matrix folks are aware of this reality.




von Curow -> (2/21/2003 9:34:05 AM)

I am posting the following for MartinMB who could not be with us in person at this time. Please flame him, not me. :)

quote:


This is Martinmb responding not Kevin. The opinions expressed here are mine and mine alone. Kevin has been nice enough to post this for me as I am experiencing some techno difficulties at this time.

Wynter: If you think that it would take one month of real time to do a game month you are sadly mistaken. I also am running an EiA PBEM game. All of us have completed, prior to my computer going funny in the head, three full turns in just 4 1/2 weeks. As the GA of the group I have been able to successfully and accurately maintain a correct count of every player’s military forces and placements. Before we started I sent everyone a tutorial as to what was required in each phase of the game. I also believe that if you are going to expend about 300+ hours of your life, (There is 168 hours in a week, you do the math), that you must as a mature adult give full credit to your players having a brain in their head. During this game there has been about 2 or 3 issues brought forth that I did not cover or anticipate. The game was halted for about 2 days, each time, before a final agreed decision was reached. Everyone in the game does expect some delays. You cannot avoid this when you have 7 leaders of state sitting at one table. It is up to the GA to make the final decision, which is not to say that the GA is to micro-manage the game as a dictator with a “control” problem.

The way we play our PBEM game is thus. Diplomacy is conducted at all times and by all players, it is only subject as to how fast you can type and as to how quickly your ISP sends the e-mail. (Try and stop a wargamer from planning and communicating the destruction of his game enemies! ) Every economic phase each player sends the GA a copy of his last 4 months worth of expenditures as well as his builds for this phase, the GA sends a copy of his economic stuff to a specific player at the same time. (This keeps thing honest)

Moves are conducted with the knowledge that if you send it, it stays the way it was sent. (Just like in chess once your finger is off the piece the move is done!) As the GA I check every move as they are received, they are sent to every other at the same time. If an error has occurred in a player’s move I notify every player to hold their move as someone has made a whoops. I then contact that player with ALL of the options open to him and with what was done incorrectly. The GA then sends out the corrected move and the game resumes. Land moves are done separately from Naval moves. It is also during each player’s current move that any and all of his reinforcements are placed on the map or in his corps. This also includes the adding or removal any leaders in his “force pool”.

Political phase, this was a little tricky but I have come up with a way to insure fairness for all. The political phase is conducted in two parts. Part one has your countries 1) declarations of war. 2) Alliance and Combined movement announcements. The GA then sends out to everyone the results of the 1st half of the Political phase along with a move that places all minor countries that have been dow’d, and that have forces, in the capital of that minor nation. The major country that gained control of that minor then has the option to re-deploy those forces during his Naval phase. Navies always start in the capitol city or strongest defended port. Also included in this e-mail is the order in which every nation will move his Naval forces. The GB player sends his placement of when he wishes to move in the Naval phase to everyone as soon as the results have been posted. If GB sends no e-mail then he goes first. The French announce when he will move in the Land phase during his Naval phase. If the 2nd half of the political phase is required it will contain 1) Call to allies. And the balance of any missed steps.

As for land battles it is quite simple. For example Austria starts a fight with a Prussian corp. Austria would move his corps into the area and then ask the Prussian to send his “battle chit” selection to the GA, Austria would do the same but in a private e-mail. Once the GA has received both chit selections the GA would then do the battle and send out the results. I am doing it this way for the first year of the game so that the new players to the game can see what is required in doing a battle. Once the new players are comfortable with doing a battle on their own I will allow any player to conduct the battles for themselves. However, both sides will still have to send their respective battle chit selections to the GA to insure honesty. Simple is it not.

As for the debate as to if Matrixgames should concentrate on having this game built for the PBEM or the Play alone option. I believe that most of us will want to play the game against the AI alone first and then have our friends join in a 7-player game. This may not be true for all of us but it is for me. I personally believe that Matrixgames should put their primary efforts into making the AI as strong as possible. For if the AI is not done right what would be the point in buying the game in the first place. I do however like the idea that the AI in this game being able to act as the “rules judge” in a 7-player game.

I have done my best to recreate the flavour of this great game in the PBEM world. I am the first to state that it is not the EXACT same as playing this game Face-To-Face. I am totally against having this game played without the British and French having the choice of when they wish to move during the Land and Naval phases. This game is not set-up to be played in an “all move at once” manner. If you want to play a game that does allow this to occur then I suggest that you play a game called “Pax Britainnica” and leave “Empires in Arms” alone.

If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

This article was written by Martinmb and not by the person who has posted it. Any and all comments or suggestions about this should Only be directed towards Martinmb. Thank You.




denisonh -> (2/21/2003 12:34:37 PM)

[QUOTE]
This is Martinmb responding not Kevin. The opinions expressed here are mine and mine alone. Kevin has been nice enough to post this for me as I am experiencing some techno difficulties at this time.

Wynter: If you think that it would take one month of real time to do a game month you are sadly mistaken. I also am running an EiA PBEM game. All of us have completed, prior to my computer going funny in the head, three full turns in just 4 1/2 weeks. As the GA of the group I have been able to successfully and accurately maintain a correct count of every player’s military forces and placements. Before we started I sent everyone a tutorial as to what was required in each phase of the game. I also believe that if you are going to expend about 300+ hours of your life, (There is 168 hours in a week, you do the math), that you must as a mature adult give full credit to your players having a brain in their head. During this game there has been about 2 or 3 issues brought forth that I did not cover or anticipate. The game was halted for about 2 days, each time, before a final agreed decision was reached. Everyone in the game does expect some delays. You cannot avoid this when you have 7 leaders of state sitting at one table. It is up to the GA to make the final decision, which is not to say that the GA is to micro-manage the game as a dictator with a “control” problem.

The way we play our PBEM game is thus. Diplomacy is conducted at all times and by all players, it is only subject as to how fast you can type and as to how quickly your ISP sends the e-mail. (Try and stop a wargamer from planning and communicating the destruction of his game enemies! ) Every economic phase each player sends the GA a copy of his last 4 months worth of expenditures as well as his builds for this phase, the GA sends a copy of his economic stuff to a specific player at the same time. (This keeps thing honest)

Moves are conducted with the knowledge that if you send it, it stays the way it was sent. (Just like in chess once your finger is off the piece the move is done!) As the GA I check every move as they are received, they are sent to every other at the same time. If an error has occurred in a player’s move I notify every player to hold their move as someone has made a whoops. I then contact that player with ALL of the options open to him and with what was done incorrectly. The GA then sends out the corrected move and the game resumes. Land moves are done separately from Naval moves. It is also during each player’s current move that any and all of his reinforcements are placed on the map or in his corps. This also includes the adding or removal any leaders in his “force pool”.

Political phase, this was a little tricky but I have come up with a way to insure fairness for all. The political phase is conducted in two parts. Part one has your countries 1) declarations of war. 2) Alliance and Combined movement announcements. The GA then sends out to everyone the results of the 1st half of the Political phase along with a move that places all minor countries that have been dow’d, and that have forces, in the capital of that minor nation. The major country that gained control of that minor then has the option to re-deploy those forces during his Naval phase. Navies always start in the capitol city or strongest defended port. Also included in this e-mail is the order in which every nation will move his Naval forces. The GB player sends his placement of when he wishes to move in the Naval phase to everyone as soon as the results have been posted. If GB sends no e-mail then he goes first. The French announce when he will move in the Land phase during his Naval phase. If the 2nd half of the political phase is required it will contain 1) Call to allies. And the balance of any missed steps.

As for land battles it is quite simple. For example Austria starts a fight with a Prussian corp. Austria would move his corps into the area and then ask the Prussian to send his “battle chit” selection to the GA, Austria would do the same but in a private e-mail. Once the GA has received both chit selections the GA would then do the battle and send out the results. I am doing it this way for the first year of the game so that the new players to the game can see what is required in doing a battle. Once the new players are comfortable with doing a battle on their own I will allow any player to conduct the battles for themselves. However, both sides will still have to send their respective battle chit selections to the GA to insure honesty. Simple is it not.

As for the debate as to if Matrixgames should concentrate on having this game built for the PBEM or the Play alone option. I believe that most of us will want to play the game against the AI alone first and then have our friends join in a 7-player game. This may not be true for all of us but it is for me. I personally believe that Matrixgames should put their primary efforts into making the AI as strong as possible. For if the AI is not done right what would be the point in buying the game in the first place. I do however like the idea that the AI in this game being able to act as the “rules judge” in a 7-player game.

I have done my best to recreate the flavour of this great game in the PBEM world. I am the first to state that it is not the EXACT same as playing this game Face-To-Face. I am totally against having this game played without the British and French having the choice of when they wish to move during the Land and Naval phases. This game is not set-up to be played in an “all move at once” manner. If you want to play a game that does allow this to occur then I suggest that you play a game called “Pax Britainnica” and leave “Empires in Arms” alone.

If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

This article was written by Martinmb and not by the person who has posted it. Any and all comments or suggestions about this should Only be directed towards Martinmb. Thank You.

[/QUOTE]

Simple enough for you to explain, but difficult for me to follow, and venture even more difficult to implement the programming to make that process happen in a reasonably easy PBEM model.

EiA is a board game designed to be played as a board game with players face to face. You have found a way to play it PBEM by making some adjustments and making a great deal of effort to achieve it.

My thought on this matter is make this a computer game designed to be played on the computer by one or more players. Take advantage of the benefits of the new "meduim" and the availability of a CPU to manage tasks and restructure the game to make it better.

Not all change is bad, and you cannot tel me that EiA is perfect and could not possibly benefit from from some updates and changes?

And I am called a dinosaur for refusing to buy a cell phone....




EricLarsen -> Playing Modes (2/26/2003 6:05:31 AM)

Originally posted by ZONER
[B]If you are looking to market this game I would emphize working on an AI against 1 player. PBEM should be the secondary feature because it is still faced with the challange of keeping 7 players active through out the game no matter how efficiant the program. Most sucessful PBEM games have been 2 player type games fot good reason. [/B]

ZONER,
I agree with you, the game must have a really good AI as the most common mode of play will be solitaire. I probably would try some PBEM game of EiA after getting used to the game again, but I think it is a tough go to get 7 players together to play the game over a very long span of time. I have played the game face-to-face several times but we never got a game finished, usually a time or two and that was that. Probably will see the same in PBEM as the game drags and players lose interest.

I also wouldn't want to see the game chopped to pieces for PBEM playability. Schwerpunkt did that with their Barbarossa game and the PBEM system totally wiped out the air function to cut down on communication turnarounds. That in essence ruined the game system. I only play it solitaire when I play it so I have the complete turn and air system to play with. Considering that combat can last a few rounds in EiA I would hate to see it dumbed down for PBEM playability. Part of the essence of combat is the multi-round combats and the decisions one needs to make between each round. Dumbing that down would ruin the game and I'd just opt for solitaire play against the AI to ensure that multi-round combat.

I'd say a host computer is necessary for this game so that players would send their turn/phase moves to the host and the host would process the moves once all players had sent in their info. Ofcourse the info needs to go in so that the person hosting the host computer could play as well without seeing everyone's moves before he puts his in. Then that host could send out processed turn/phase packets to each player. A lot of tedium to be sure but it could result in a very fun game. TCP/IP would be a good alternative for those who can actually find the same time to play together.

But either way the PBEM goes I still say give us a really good AI as that is the player we will play most. I'm not about to pay extra to play the game PBEM or TCP/IP.
Eric Larsen




EricLarsen -> Dinosaurs (2/26/2003 6:17:48 AM)

Originally posted by denisonh
[B]And I am called a dinosaur for refusing to buy a cell phone.... [/B]

denisonh,
That makes two of us dinosaurs, much less in the same county!

Eric Larsen




ABP -> Players vs AI (2/26/2003 7:44:56 AM)

Although I do not doubt that Matrix have capable programmers, I have never seen an AI that really could match human confrontation. There are simply to many levels of interaction between people for the computer to be able to match this behaviour. I is fine by me if Matrix makes a good AI for this game, but I think the best way to play will be against human players.

I agree that it can be a challenge to complete a game like this.
However I think Matrix may be able to help in this matter.
If it was possible Matrix could make some sort of ladder- or tracking-system either on the web-site or in the game where info was stored. It could be: number of games played, average game length, number of games as which countries, number of victories. Even style of gamer if that is possible to extract from the game, like warmonger, Metternick, Backstabber etc (or as a voting system post game where all players grade each other for that game).
This information could then be screened by the people setting up new games.
Thereby they could have a better chance of finding players they could compete against time and time again.
It should of cause be a system that people voloteer to enter.
The idea should be not to force, but increase that players likelyhood of getting invited to games.




denisonh -> Re: Dinosaurs (2/26/2003 10:26:07 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by EricLarsen
[B]Originally posted by denisonh
[B]And I am called a dinosaur for refusing to buy a cell phone.... [/B]

denisonh,
That makes two of us dinosaurs, much less in the same county!

Eric Larsen [/B][/QUOTE]

By my reckoning we're the only ones in the Monterey Bay area without them.....




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